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Thread: New map of Yamna admixture (Eurogenes Steppe K10)

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    Arrow New map of Yamna admixture (Eurogenes Steppe K10)

    I finally found some time to make the map of Yamna admixture using the data from Eurogenes Steppe K10. There was no data for some countries, so I had to guess based on neighbouring countries or isolated samples reported on forums. That is the case for Portugal, Ireland, Wales, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, Slovenia, Slovakia and Azerbaijan.

    I would especially need regional samples from all over Iberia. There are huge variations from nearly 0% of Yamna among some Basques to 16% in some Spaniards (but their region of origin is unknown). The Eurogenes data just shows a lower percentage in northern Spain, but that is not very helpful as Galicia, Cantabria and Catalonia probably have very different levels.

    Regional data from Britain, France and Germany are also welcome.





    Even though Yamna chieftains from kurgan belonged almost exclusively to R1b, among modern Europeans it is the Uralic, Baltic, Slavic, Germanic and North Caucasian people who inherited the highest share of Yamna ancestry, not Western Europeans, who now have the highest percentage of haplogroup R1b. One of the reasons for this is that R1b arrived in Western Europe after over a thousand years of genetic dilution through intermarriages with Balkanic and Central European people. In contrast, in the eastern half of Europe, R1b lost its position of dominance and was replaced by R1a and N1c lineages, starting from the Catacomb culture in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, and continuing until the Middle Ages. Nevertheless Yamna ancestry was passed maternally in the Steppe and in neighbouring populations, which explains the high Yamna admixture from the Baltic to the North Caucasus.
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    How do you explain the high percent of Yamnaya among Lapps?

    By the way both south Russia and south Ukraine suffered as Spain and Portugal a process of colonization over Muslim territoires that might be taken into account when traveling into the past.
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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    How do you explain the high percent of Yamnaya among Lapps?
    Not sure. Probably shared ANE (Ancient North Eurasian) ancestry. Yamna originated from the Khvalynsk culture (R1a+R1b), which was adjacent to the Kama culture (N1c) in the Steppe. Finns, Balts and Sami have high N1c levels, which also means high ANE levels shared with R1 and Q1a populations and more recent (c. 5000-4000 BCE) intermingling in the Volga-Ural region, before N1c moved to Fennoscandia. So the high Yamna admixture in the Baltic may only be shared ancestry older than Yamna.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    So the high Yamna admixture in the Baltic may only be shared ancestry older than Yamna.
    If that's true than high Yamna admixture in the North Caucasus is also from the shared ancestry. Remember that Yamnaya auDNA was also for a great part NorthWest Asian.

    And also, I don't think it has anything to do with ANE. It is more or less related to EHG. There is more ANE in Iran than in Turkey, still Turkey has more Yamnaya ancestry than Iran, according to your map.


    So ANE is much more ancient and was not only related to EHG, but also CHG (/Gedrosia). ANE peaks also in the Caucasus, in places where CHG is also very high.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Q1a
    In Chwałyńsk, it was one guy, obviously killed
    by locals and through into pit. How can he be
    representative for all population...? Especially,
    that Q is obviously representative for syberian
    populations, and this one was not original to
    that local folk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    How do you explain the high percent of Yamnaya among Lapps?
    That's a very GOOD question. Because they have more of that Yamnaya ancestry than all other Indo-European speaking Scandinavians. His map can be wrong, because of all Indo-European speakers the Norwegians have the most of that Yamnaya ancestry.

    But IF it is true that Lapladers have more Yamnaya ancestry than the Norweggians, then at this moment the only argument that comes into my mind is that Indo-European Scandinavians have also some EXTRA Bell Beaker ancestry due to the contacts with the main land (Europe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Good idea in theory, but it's not just ANE, but also EHG. The problem is that there are so many ways of calculating admixtures, and the EHG or ANE in one test does not necessarily equals that of another test. You'd think that by comparing modern genomes to a few Yamna genomes you'd get similar percentages in all calculators, but Haak and Eurogenes got very different results for some populations like the Basques. IMO the Eurogenes data makes for sense for the Basques (0-5% Yamna, against about 25% according to Haak). But it also depends on one calibrates the calculator, how sensitive the differences can be, etc.


    I disagree, imo it makes more sense that Basques got their ~80+ of R1b from 25% of their ancestry than just 0-5% of it. So much founder effect is just ridiculous. Not even in India is the aDNA of the R1a bearers so low.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I disagree, imo it makes more sense that Basques got their ~80+ of R1b from 25% of their ancestry than just 0-5% of it. So much founder effect is just ridiculous. Not even in India is the aDNA of the R1a bearers so low.
    No it doesn't make sense because the Basque R1b-M153 is only 2800 years old and has a TMRCA of 2500 years. Most Basques belong to the subclade just under that, with a TMRCA of 2100 years. This means that the Basque R1b is a very recent phenomenon starting in Roman times. But who knows, R1b might have continued to expand little by little each generations among the Basques for over 1000 years before reaching today's frequencies. I now believe that the Basque only got their R1b very gradually over the last 2500 years and that it has nothing to do with Bronze Age PIE invasions. That has the benefit to explain why they kept speaking Basque. I don't know why R1b increased gradually. Maybe increased fertility compared to the native male lineages (I2-M26 + G2a ?), or a noble lineage of some sort. It was probably a combination of factors. Anywau, if R1b entered the Basque gene pool from, say, neighbouring Aquitaine or Castille c. 500 BCE or even 100 BCE, it could have been autosomally low in Yamna ancestry (say 15-20%). After diluting it slowly over 1000 to 2000 more years with relatively pure Basque women, there would be very little Yamna left, surely under 5%. If Haak et al. are right and the Basque have 27% of Yamna, then it becomes much harder to explain with such a young TMRCA for their R1b, especially that Haak found 5% less Yamna among other Spaniards (22%). Spanish branches of DF27 are between 3500 and 4400 years old, so Late Bronze Age, and match the arrival of foreign Bronze Age cultures like El Argar. So there is no doubt that R1b was in many parts of Spain long before it spread among the Basques.

    It's good that you mention India. Indian Brahmins have at most 15-20% of Steppe DNA. In fact, since they descend from Sintashta rather than Yamna, their Steppe DNA should be higher in EHG than CHG. Using Dodecad K12, they have about 18% of East European + West European + Mediterranean, but the latter also includes non-IE Neolithic ancestry. Using K12b, they have only 5% of Atlantic_Med + North European, but that doesn't include the Gedrosian that came with the IE. So depending on the calculator, we get somewhere between 7 and 18% of Steppe admixture. Unfortunately neither the Haak paper nor the Steppe K10 data have any Indian sample. But the Indo-Aryans invaded India from 1800 BCE, almost exactly at the same time as IE invaded Iberia with El Argar. And we get a similar percentage of Steppe admixture (10-20%) both in Spaniards and upper-caste Indians. But it took another 1500 years before R1b-M153 started spreading among the Basques, so a considerably lower Steppe admixture is to be expected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    But the Indo-Aryans invaded India from 1800 BCE, almost exactly at the same time as IE invaded Iberia with El Argar.
    Which proofs do you have for this statement about El Argar culture?

    @all, for the Basque issue it is naive to go on without knowing the primary sources in each paper: they were got from rural Basques with Basque surnames or they included all actual Basques? (about a 50% with a recent migratory history and with usual Spanish surnames).

    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maqueto

    For the case of the "non-Yamnayan EHG" DNA, the best solution would be to take into account only the Calcho_Iran and then double such percent (the other half of EHG origin) to know the real Yamnayan DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    For the case of the "non-Yamnayan EHG" DNA, the best solution would be to take into account only the Calcho_Iran and then double such percent (the other half of EHG origin) to know the real Yamnayan DNA.
    Well, even that way wouldn't be reliable: what prevents that Calcho_Iran DNA stopped in Samara leaving the best unoccupied (forest-steppe and forest)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's good that you mention India. Indian Brahmins have at most 15-20% of Steppe DNA. In fact, since they descend from Sintashta rather than Yamna, their Steppe DNA should be higher in EHG than CHG.
    I don't know where you got your info from, but Indo-Aryans that invaded India were from BMAC and NOT from the Steppes at all. IMO: BMAC was mostly CHG-GEDROSIA, belonged to R2a, R1a-Z93, J2a, G2a etc. folks..



    http://balkhandshambhala.blogspot.nl...on1600-bc.html



    Or do you think that Indo-Aryans had AIRPLANES and other flying machines and FLEW directly from the Steppes into India, by skipping the SouthCentral Asia / BMAC? There is no LOGOS in your story..

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I don't know where you got your info from, but Indo-Aryans that invaded India were from BMAC and NOT from the Steppes at all. IMO: BMAC was mostly CHG-GEDROSIA, belonged to R2a, R1a-Z93, J2a, G2a etc. folks..

    Or do you think that Indo-Aryans had AIRPLANES and other flying machines and FLEW directly from the Steppes into India, by skipping the SouthCentral Asia / BMAC? There is no LOGOS in your story..
    Of course they came from the BMAC, but a few centuries earlier they came from Sintashta. That's proven. R1a-Z93* was found in EBA Russia. Deal with it.

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    I'm not sure I would take Eurogenes' calculator as the best for computing Yamnaya ancestry, especially when it substantially contradicts academic findings on the subject.

    From Haak et al:
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture14317.html

    Spanish north is Pais Vasco from what I remember.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm not sure I would take Eurogenes' calculator as the best for computing Yamnaya ancestry, especially when it substantially contradicts academic findings on the subject.
    The dude isn't perfect(eg, girl-snatching ANEs) but he's smart. He doesn't contradict academic findings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The dude isn't perfect(eg, girl-snatching ANEs) but he's smart. He doesn't contradict academic findings.
    Now whom should I believe? You or my lying eyes? The percentages from his calculator are very different from the ones in Haak et al. Or didn't you bother to compare them?

    As for your post #14, who said the Baltics and Finland don't have Corded Ware ancestry? Stop creating straw man arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Now whom should I believe? You or my lying eyes? The percentages from his calculator are very different from the ones in Haak et al. Or didn't you bother to compare them?
    I realize his admixture test used by Maciamo to make his Steppe ancestry map is inconsistent with academic results. I made the statement I did because you've shown what is in my opinion unjustified distrust of him in general not in this test in particular.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As for your post #14, who said the Baltics and Finland don't have Corded Ware ancestry? Stop creating straw man arguments.
    Sorry I should have worded my post better. I know you agree there's Corded Ware ancestry in the Baltic and Finland(and Scandinavia because 80% isn't traditionally Nordic territory). I was arguing against your opinion local hunter gatherer ancestry might be significantly inflating Steppe ancestry percentages there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm not sure I would take Eurogenes' calculator as the best for computing Yamnaya ancestry, especially when it substantially contradicts academic findings on the subject.
    Unfortunately I can't make a map with data for just a handful of countries.

    Spanish north is Pais Vasco from what I remember.
    There is data for the Basque country (0-5%), and other data for Northern Spanish (5-10%).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Unfortunately I can't make a map with data for just a handful of countries.



    There is data for the Basque country (0-5%), and other data for Northern Spanish (5-10%).

    I remember there was a whole table of ethnic groups compared with Yamnaya based on fst distance. It was in one of those studies, if we find it, it could be usefull it doesn't tell you how much Yamnaya contributed to an ethnic group (that is impossible to say for 100% anyways) but it tells how small the genetic distance of certain groups is to Yamnaya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Even though Yamna chieftains from kurgan belonged almost exclusively to R1b, among modern Europeans it is the Uralic, Baltic, Slavic, Germanic and North Caucasian people who inherited the highest share of Yamna ancestry, not Western Europeans, who now have the highest percentage of haplogroup R1b. One of the reasons for this is that R1b arrived in Western Europe after over a thousand years of genetic dilution through intermarriages with Balkanic and Central European people. In contrast, in the eastern half of Europe, R1b lost its position of dominance and was replaced by R1a and N1c lineages, starting from the Catacomb culture in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, and continuing until the Middle Ages. Nevertheless Yamna ancestry was passed maternally in the Steppe and in neighbouring populations, which explains the high Yamna admixture from the Baltic to the North Caucasus.
    You are wrong. The reason why Yamnaya ancestry is high in North Central-East Europe is due to Corded Ware ancestry. Corded Ware was directly derived from Yamnaya and from there it spread into the North.

    While Southern and Western Europe was more related to the Bell Beaker folks. Bell Beaker folks have much less Yamnaya ancestry than Corded Ware.


    bell beaker.jpg


    The most important reason why Uralic, Baltic, Slavic have more of that Yamnaya ancestry is due to they don't have much of Bell Beakers ancestry and more Corded Ware...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    You are wrong. The reason why Yamnaya ancestry is high in North Central-East Europe is due to Corded Ware ancestry. Corded Ware was directly derived from Yamnaya and from there it spread into the North.
    It's true that I forgot to mention the Corded Ware among the reasons for higher Yamna among Slavic and Germanic populations. I was in a bit of a hurry when I posted this as I had to go somewhere. It's definitely one main reason. Thanks for bringing that up.

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    So the high Yamna admixture in the Baltic may only be shared ancestry older than Yamna.
    It isn't. Narva and Kunda cultures were autosomally WHG, not EHG.

    Yamna and EHG admixtures came only with Corded Ware culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    It isn't. Narva and Kunda cultures were autosomally WHG, not EHG.

    Yamna and EHG admixtures came only with Corded Ware culture.
    Kunda too?
    Ok, it is also derived from Swiderian, so, could be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Kunda too?
    Ok, it is also derived from Swiderian, so, could be.
    Swiderian started in Poland before the youngest dryas, and expanded eastward arfter youngest dryas, so I'd guess WHG/SHG.
    But I think Swiderian and Kunda went extinct when EHG arrived in the area.

    But Narva, didn't Narva have pottery, coming in from Siberia?

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    I wonder what Yamayan DNA actually is. Could it be a synthesis of CHG and ANE ?
    Didn't SHG already have some ANE ?
    Do Uralic people have higher ANE ?
    This would also have enhanced higher Yamnaya DNA in northeastern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I wonder what Yamayan DNA actually is. Could it be a synthesis of CHG and ANE ?
    Didn't SHG already have some ANE ?
    Do Uralic people have higher ANE ?
    This would also have enhanced higher Yamnaya DNA in northeastern Europe.
    Finally! :) I've been saying this since Haak et al came out, but so far no one has seen that possibility. I said then that maybe the title of the paper "Massive Migration from the steppe", was incorrect.

    If there was a large reservoir of SHG (which was an admixture, supposedly, of WHG and the EHG) in the north, or maybe other groups we haven't yet sampled, or EHG further west elsewhere, wouldn't that inflate the "Yamnaya" percentages beyond what actual Yamnaya people brought who moved there?

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