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Thread: New map of Yamna admixture (Eurogenes Steppe K10)

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    2 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow New map of Yamna admixture (Eurogenes Steppe K10)

    I finally found some time to make the map of Yamna admixture using the data from Eurogenes Steppe K10. There was no data for some countries, so I had to guess based on neighbouring countries or isolated samples reported on forums. That is the case for Portugal, Ireland, Wales, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, Slovenia, Slovakia and Azerbaijan.

    I would especially need regional samples from all over Iberia. There are huge variations from nearly 0% of Yamna among some Basques to 16% in some Spaniards (but their region of origin is unknown). The Eurogenes data just shows a lower percentage in northern Spain, but that is not very helpful as Galicia, Cantabria and Catalonia probably have very different levels.

    Regional data from Britain, France and Germany are also welcome.





    Even though Yamna chieftains from kurgan belonged almost exclusively to R1b, among modern Europeans it is the Uralic, Baltic, Slavic, Germanic and North Caucasian people who inherited the highest share of Yamna ancestry, not Western Europeans, who now have the highest percentage of haplogroup R1b. One of the reasons for this is that R1b arrived in Western Europe after over a thousand years of genetic dilution through intermarriages with Balkanic and Central European people. In contrast, in the eastern half of Europe, R1b lost its position of dominance and was replaced by R1a and N1c lineages, starting from the Catacomb culture in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, and continuing until the Middle Ages. Nevertheless Yamna ancestry was passed maternally in the Steppe and in neighbouring populations, which explains the high Yamna admixture from the Baltic to the North Caucasus.
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    How do you explain the high percent of Yamnaya among Lapps?

    By the way both south Russia and south Ukraine suffered as Spain and Portugal a process of colonization over Muslim territoires that might be taken into account when traveling into the past.
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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    How do you explain the high percent of Yamnaya among Lapps?
    Not sure. Probably shared ANE (Ancient North Eurasian) ancestry. Yamna originated from the Khvalynsk culture (R1a+R1b), which was adjacent to the Kama culture (N1c) in the Steppe. Finns, Balts and Sami have high N1c levels, which also means high ANE levels shared with R1 and Q1a populations and more recent (c. 5000-4000 BCE) intermingling in the Volga-Ural region, before N1c moved to Fennoscandia. So the high Yamna admixture in the Baltic may only be shared ancestry older than Yamna.


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    4 members found this post helpful.
    I'm not sure I would take Eurogenes' calculator as the best for computing Yamnaya ancestry, especially when it substantially contradicts academic findings on the subject.

    From Haak et al:
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture14317.html

    Spanish north is Pais Vasco from what I remember.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    So the high Yamna admixture in the Baltic may only be shared ancestry older than Yamna.
    If that's true than high Yamna admixture in the North Caucasus is also from the shared ancestry. Remember that Yamnaya auDNA was also for a great part NorthWest Asian.

    And also, I don't think it has anything to do with ANE. It is more or less related to EHG. There is more ANE in Iran than in Turkey, still Turkey has more Yamnaya ancestry than Iran, according to your map.


    So ANE is much more ancient and was not only related to EHG, but also CHG (/Gedrosia). ANE peaks also in the Caucasus, in places where CHG is also very high.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Even though Yamna chieftains from kurgan belonged almost exclusively to R1b, among modern Europeans it is the Uralic, Baltic, Slavic, Germanic and North Caucasian people who inherited the highest share of Yamna ancestry, not Western Europeans, who now have the highest percentage of haplogroup R1b. One of the reasons for this is that R1b arrived in Western Europe after over a thousand years of genetic dilution through intermarriages with Balkanic and Central European people. In contrast, in the eastern half of Europe, R1b lost its position of dominance and was replaced by R1a and N1c lineages, starting from the Catacomb culture in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, and continuing until the Middle Ages. Nevertheless Yamna ancestry was passed maternally in the Steppe and in neighbouring populations, which explains the high Yamna admixture from the Baltic to the North Caucasus.
    You are wrong. The reason why Yamnaya ancestry is high in North Central-East Europe is due to Corded Ware ancestry. Corded Ware was directly derived from Yamnaya and from there it spread into the North.

    While Southern and Western Europe was more related to the Bell Beaker folks. Bell Beaker folks have much less Yamnaya ancestry than Corded Ware.


    bell beaker.jpg


    The most important reason why Uralic, Baltic, Slavic have more of that Yamnaya ancestry is due to they don't have much of Bell Beakers ancestry and more Corded Ware...

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    So the high Yamna admixture in the Baltic may only be shared ancestry older than Yamna.
    It isn't. Narva and Kunda cultures were autosomally WHG, not EHG.

    Yamna and EHG admixtures came only with Corded Ware culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    How do you explain the high percent of Yamnaya among Lapps?
    That's a very GOOD question. Because they have more of that Yamnaya ancestry than all other Indo-European speaking Scandinavians. His map can be wrong, because of all Indo-European speakers the Norwegians have the most of that Yamnaya ancestry.

    But IF it is true that Lapladers have more Yamnaya ancestry than the Norweggians, then at this moment the only argument that comes into my mind is that Indo-European Scandinavians have also some EXTRA Bell Beaker ancestry due to the contacts with the main land (Europe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    It isn't. Narva and Kunda cultures were autosomally WHG, not EHG.

    Yamna and EHG admixtures came only with Corded Ware culture.
    Kunda too?
    Ok, it is also derived from Swiderian, so, could be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Kunda too?
    Ok, it is also derived from Swiderian, so, could be.
    Swiderian started in Poland before the youngest dryas, and expanded eastward arfter youngest dryas, so I'd guess WHG/SHG.
    But I think Swiderian and Kunda went extinct when EHG arrived in the area.

    But Narva, didn't Narva have pottery, coming in from Siberia?

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    I wonder what Yamayan DNA actually is. Could it be a synthesis of CHG and ANE ?
    Didn't SHG already have some ANE ?
    Do Uralic people have higher ANE ?
    This would also have enhanced higher Yamnaya DNA in northeastern Europe.

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    @Maciamo, if so it would be necessary to remove the previous ANE (and EHG) from the Europeans as to know the real impact of Yamnaya, which nowadays is not possible. Also a Yamnayan-like signal could be done by a pop high in ANE expanding. Moreover Finns display less Yamnayan autosomals than Lapps which is unlogical as if Uralics delivered more ANE there it would add up to that of the Corded Ware, not extracting.

    In fact the high Yamnaya percentage in the Baltics is by the colonization of HG lands scarcely populated, providing there a major autosomal weight (in farmer lands it would dilute among locals).

    Also it is problematic the low share with Caucasians (Armenians and Azeris above all) as half of the autosomal of Yamnayans came from there... so there is another problem with this issue (difficult to solve I guess).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I wonder what Yamayan DNA actually is. Could it be a synthesis of CHG and ANE ?
    Didn't SHG already have some ANE ?
    Do Uralic people have higher ANE ?
    This would also have enhanced higher Yamnaya DNA in northeastern Europe.
    Finally! :) I've been saying this since Haak et al came out, but so far no one has seen that possibility. I said then that maybe the title of the paper "Massive Migration from the steppe", was incorrect.

    If there was a large reservoir of SHG (which was an admixture, supposedly, of WHG and the EHG) in the north, or maybe other groups we haven't yet sampled, or EHG further west elsewhere, wouldn't that inflate the "Yamnaya" percentages beyond what actual Yamnaya people brought who moved there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Finally! :) I've been saying this since Haak et al came out, but so far no one has seen that possibility. I said then that maybe the title of the paper "Massive Migration from the steppe", was incorrect.

    If there was a large reservoir of SHG (which was an admixture, supposedly, of WHG and the EHG) in the north, or maybe other groups we haven't yet sampled, or EHG further west elsewhere, wouldn't that inflate the "Yamnaya" percentages beyond what actual Yamnaya people brought who moved there?
    Hunter Gatherers in the East Baltic were WHG. So the top ranking EHG affinity there today is certainly because of Steppe ancestry not hunter gatherer ancestry. Only location in the north EHG ancestry existed before Corded Ware was probably Scandinavia, Finland, and Karelia.

    Corded Ware carries all the EHG-affinity modern Scandinavia/Finland/Karelia needs. This region has a lot of Anatolia Neolithic and WHG ancestry which can only be from outside of the region. Anatolia Neolithic and WHG ancestry came to that region a long with Steppe ancestry(remember the aDNA Baltic abstracts). Mesolithic Northern Europeans simply can't explain much of the EHG/ANE-affinity in modern Northern Europeans. Posters have tried and failed with this theory for two years now. Modern Northern Europeans don't just have EHG-affinity they also have CHG-affinity and at the right proportions to be from Yamnaya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm not sure I would take Eurogenes' calculator as the best for computing Yamnaya ancestry, especially when it substantially contradicts academic findings on the subject.
    The dude isn't perfect(eg, girl-snatching ANEs) but he's smart. He doesn't contradict academic findings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @Maciamo, if so it would be necessary to remove the previous ANE (and EHG) from the Europeans as to know the real impact of Yamnaya, which nowadays is not possible. Also a Yamnayan-like signal could be done by a pop high in ANE expanding. Moreover Finns display less Yamnayan autosomals than Lapps which is unlogical as if Uralics delivered more ANE there it would add up to that of the Corded Ware, not extracting.
    It is possible. Many methods can do that. We know ANE-affinity in Europe today is from only Yamnaya except for some ANE-affinity in Southern Europe which is from Bronze age West Asian migrations and maybe some ANE-affinity in Finland/Northern Scandinavia is from Mesolithic Finland/Northern Scandinavia.

    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    In fact the high Yamnaya percentage in the Baltics is by the colonization of HG lands scarcely populated, providing there a major autosomal weight (in farmer lands it would dilute among locals).
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Also it is problematic the low share with Caucasians (Armenians and Azeris above all) as half of the autosomal of Yamnayans came from there... so there is another problem with this issue (difficult to solve I guess).
    BTW, modern Caucasians trace maybe half of their ancestry to the ancient Caucasians who contributed ancestry to Yamnaya. They aren't exactly the same as the ancient Caucasian ancestors of Yamnaya. Anyways, modern Europeans do have affinity to modern Caucasians. They have the amount of affinity to Caucasians you would expect them to have if they had Yamnaya ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm not sure I would take Eurogenes' calculator as the best for computing Yamnaya ancestry, especially when it substantially contradicts academic findings on the subject.
    Unfortunately I can't make a map with data for just a handful of countries.

    Spanish north is Pais Vasco from what I remember.
    There is data for the Basque country (0-5%), and other data for Northern Spanish (5-10%).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    You are wrong. The reason why Yamnaya ancestry is high in North Central-East Europe is due to Corded Ware ancestry. Corded Ware was directly derived from Yamnaya and from there it spread into the North.
    It's true that I forgot to mention the Corded Ware among the reasons for higher Yamna among Slavic and Germanic populations. I was in a bit of a hurry when I posted this as I had to go somewhere. It's definitely one main reason. Thanks for bringing that up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @Maciamo, if so it would be necessary to remove the previous ANE (and EHG) from the Europeans as to know the real impact of Yamnaya, which nowadays is not possible. Also a Yamnayan-like signal could be done by a pop high in ANE expanding.
    Good idea in theory, but it's not just ANE, but also EHG. The problem is that there are so many ways of calculating admixtures, and the EHG or ANE in one test does not necessarily equals that of another test. You'd think that by comparing modern genomes to a few Yamna genomes you'd get similar percentages in all calculators, but Haak and Eurogenes got very different results for some populations like the Basques. IMO the Eurogenes data makes for sense for the Basques (0-5% Yamna, against about 25% according to Haak). But it also depends on one calibrates the calculator, how sensitive the differences can be, etc.

    Moreover Finns display less Yamnayan autosomals than Lapps which is unlogical as if Uralics delivered more ANE there it would add up to that of the Corded Ware, not extracting..
    If the Lapps got any DNA from the Corded Ware people, the impact must have been rather limited, and definitely smaller than for Germanic Scandinavians, Slavs and Balts. So I don't think that the Yamna admixture in the Lapps/Sami comes from Yamna. It can only be explained by some older shared ancestry in the Volga-Ural region, Siberia (ANE) or Northeast Europe (EHG).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Finally! :) I've been saying this since Haak et al came out, but so far no one has seen that possibility. I said then that maybe the title of the paper "Massive Migration from the steppe", was incorrect.

    If there was a large reservoir of SHG (which was an admixture, supposedly, of WHG and the EHG) in the north, or maybe other groups we haven't yet sampled, or EHG further west elsewhere, wouldn't that inflate the "Yamnaya" percentages beyond what actual Yamnaya people brought who moved there?
    That is indeed possible. Like I said for the Sami, they couldn't have got their ANE from Yamna (nor even their so-called Yamna admixture from Yamna people).

    It would be interesting to run WHG, SHG and EHG genomes in Steppe K10 and see how high they score for Yamna. This way we have a better idea of what Steppe migration really added, especially in Fennoscandia and the Baltic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The dude isn't perfect(eg, girl-snatching ANEs) but he's smart. He doesn't contradict academic findings.
    Now whom should I believe? You or my lying eyes? The percentages from his calculator are very different from the ones in Haak et al. Or didn't you bother to compare them?

    As for your post #14, who said the Baltics and Finland don't have Corded Ware ancestry? Stop creating straw man arguments.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    On page 122 of the supplement, Haak et al provide the EN/WHG/Yamnaya precise percentages for 29 European populations. The Tuscans are 27% Yamnaya, the French 37.6%, the English 41%, the Basques 27 %, the Estonians 49.5, the Scottish 48.6, the Lithuanians 51%, the Norwegians 53.5%, the Finns 67.8% and so on.

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re14317-s1.pdf

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Using a Eurogenes calculator to make a map of Yamnaya admixture is a little naiv. Look at the Yamnaya numbers of Haak et al.
    and than compare it to the map and where "Yamnaya ancestry " peaks. Is it the Baltics? coincidence? isn't the author also from the Baltics?



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    How do you explain the high percent of Yamnaya among Lapps?

    By the way both south Russia and south Ukraine suffered as Spain and Portugal a process of colonization over Muslim territoires that might be taken into account when traveling into the past.
    There is no high percentage of Yamnaya in the Lapps, it's just that the authors methods are Northeast Europe biased, and as consequence therefore even groups such as Lapps score extremely high. But in reality it is just similar/ shared ancestry or this calculator is simply catching up more EHG ancestry as Yamnaya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Good idea in theory, but it's not just ANE, but also EHG. The problem is that there are so many ways of calculating admixtures, and the EHG or ANE in one test does not necessarily equals that of another test. You'd think that by comparing modern genomes to a few Yamna genomes you'd get similar percentages in all calculators, but Haak and Eurogenes got very different results for some populations like the Basques. IMO the Eurogenes data makes for sense for the Basques (0-5% Yamna, against about 25% according to Haak). But it also depends on one calibrates the calculator, how sensitive the differences can be, etc.


    I disagree, imo it makes more sense that Basques got their ~80+ of R1b from 25% of their ancestry than just 0-5% of it. So much founder effect is just ridiculous. Not even in India is the aDNA of the R1a bearers so low.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Unfortunately I can't make a map with data for just a handful of countries.



    There is data for the Basque country (0-5%), and other data for Northern Spanish (5-10%).

    I remember there was a whole table of ethnic groups compared with Yamnaya based on fst distance. It was in one of those studies, if we find it, it could be usefull it doesn't tell you how much Yamnaya contributed to an ethnic group (that is impossible to say for 100% anyways) but it tells how small the genetic distance of certain groups is to Yamnaya.

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