Swedish city Lund wants to acomodate Syrian ISIS fighters

[bicicleur]

2 days ago the Islamic State flag was declared legal in Sweden

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...egal-in-Sweden

today Miss Anna Sjöstrand, coördinator against extremism violence for the Swedish city Lund wants to wellcome Syrian ISIS fighters returning home
she thinks these fighters should be given free housing, driver licenses and tax benefits

'we can't exclude these people simply because they made because they made a wrong choice'

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenl...schenken.dhtml

if Nazi war criminals had known this 70 years ago .. they all could have gotten asylum in Sweden ..

[gyms]

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel...rtikel=6540648


The support for extremists was proposed by Anna Sjöstrand, a municipal coordinator against violent extremism in the city of Lund in southern Sweden.

https://www.rt.com/news/363256-swede...ists-benefits/

[blevins13]

I guess it takes a Swedish to offer something like this.

[Goga]

2 days ago the Islamic State flag was declared legal in Sweden

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...egal-in-Sweden

today Miss Anna Sjöstrand, coördinator against extremism violence for the Swedish city Lund wants to wellcome Syrian ISIS fighters returning home
she thinks these fighters should be given free housing, driver licenses and tax benefits

'we can't exclude these people simply because they made because they made a wrong choice'

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenl...schenken.dhtml

if Nazi war criminals had known this 70 years ago .. they all could have gotten asylum in Sweden ..

This Anna Sjöstrand is a sick woman (maybe she has some kind of sexual fetish/fantasy for dark skinned men) and they need to put her into the MENTAL asylum (in Syria?) as soon as possible. She is an enemy & danger to own people and to own fatherland.

[Maciamo]

today Miss Anna Sjöstrand, coördinator against extremism violence for the Swedish city Lund wants to wellcome Syrian ISIS fighters returning home
she thinks these fighters should be given free housing, driver licenses and tax benefits

Why don't they start by sequestering irresponsible idiots like that?

[Maciamo]

This Anna Sjöstrand is a sick woman (maybe she has some kind of sexual fetish/fantasy for dark skinned men) and they need to put her into the MENTAL asylum (in Syria?) as soon as possible. She is an enemy & danger to own people and to own fatherland.

Totally agree.

(Wow, what's going on with the world? It's the second time I agree with Goga in one day ! The end is near.)

[Ukko]

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel...rtikel=6540648


The support for extremists was proposed by Anna Sjöstrand, a municipal coordinator against violent extremism in the city of Lund in southern Sweden.

https://www.rt.com/news/363256-swede...ists-benefits/

Sane Swedes should emigrate to Finland, together we might survive this period in history.

[Angela]

This is sort of in line with the attitude of the Swedes toward criminals, I think. I'm actually an admirer of some aspects of the Swedish penal system, which is much more oriented toward rehabilitation than the one here, which is heavily focused on punishment. They have less recidivism for some crimes as a result.

Maybe what they're considering is a program for the young men and girls who went to the Near East and then became disillusioned and came home?

However, even in that case I think they're being naive. These are people who committed themselves to a toxic ideology. She probably thinks that the odds of them renouncing it are better if they're not on the street, treated like criminals. What she doesn't appreciate fully enough, imo, is that there's no real way to determine if they've renounced their murderous intentions, and this plan would insure they don't have to worry about supporting themselves. They can just concentrate on their agenda. Plus, if they're not incarcerated they aren't even going to be undergoing de-programming or therapy.

Still, if European countries are going to allow these people to return, they have to have a plan.

[Boreas]

After think the room where Norwegian attacker Anders Behring Breivik stays and remember that he killed 77 people, but he was punished with just 21 years.

Scandiavian people are focusing people, not the society. That's why, as Angela said they prefer rehabilitation than punishment or isolation.

This is just a Scandivian thing

[LABERIA]

2 days ago the Islamic State flag was declared legal in Sweden

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...egal-in-Sweden

today Miss Anna Sjöstrand, coördinator against extremism violence for the Swedish city Lund wants to wellcome Syrian ISIS fighters returning home
she thinks these fighters should be given free housing, driver licenses and tax benefits

'we can't exclude these people simply because they made because they made a wrong choice'

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenl...schenken.dhtml

if Nazi war criminals had known this 70 years ago .. they all could have gotten asylum in Sweden ..

I think the problem is not islam, terrorists etc, the problem is you. This is madness. Is she ready to provide 70 virgins for each of this warriors of Allah?

[bicicleur]

This is sort of in line with the attitude of the Swedes toward criminals, I think. I'm actually an admirer of some aspects of the Swedish penal system, which is much more oriented toward rehabilitation than the one here, which is heavily focused on punishment. They have less recidivism for some crimes as a result.

Maybe what they're considering is a program for the young men and girls who went to the Near East and then became disillusioned and came home?

However, even in that case I think they're being naive. These are people who committed themselves to a toxic ideology. She probably thinks that the odds of them renouncing it are better if they're not on the street, treated like criminals. What she doesn't appreciate fully enough, imo, is that there's no real way to determine if they've renounced their murderous intentions, and this plan would insure they don't have to worry about supporting themselves. They can just concentrate on their agenda. Plus, if they're not incarcerated they aren't even going to be undergoing de-programming or therapy.

Still, if European countries are going to allow these people to return, they have to have a plan.

what kind of plan could there be ?
Europe has a problem with certain groups of immigrants because they were to tolerant towards them, and just let them not have any will to integrate.

And that is not the issue.
It is just disrespectful toward the victims they made.

Maybe I am oldfashionned, but I'm against any rehabilitation without the purportrators feeling genuinely sorry for what they've done and without consent of the victims. Actually there should also be consent of the law-obeyding and taxpaying citizens who didn't commit crimes and are supposed to pay for their rehabilitation programs, which in this case involves free housing and tax benefits.

[Angela]

what kind of plan could there be ?
Europe has a problem with certain groups of immigrants because they were to tolerant towards them, and just let them not have any will to integrate.

And that is not the issue.
It is just disrespectful toward the victims they made.

Maybe I am oldfashionned, but I'm against any rehabilitation without the purportrators feeling genuinely sorry for what they've done and without consent of the victims. Actually there should also be consent of the law-obeyding and taxpaying citizens who didn't commit crimes and are supposed to pay for their rehabilitation programs, which in this case involves free housing and tax benefits.

You do realize your attitude doesn't make sense long term don't you? That is, unless you execute all people who have broken the law, or give them life sentences, you want prisoners to come out less likely to commit crimes than when they went in, don't you? That's why you want to rehabilitate them, i.e. train them for a job, get them anti-agression therapy etc. What you absolutely don't want to happen is that they come out more traumatized, prone to criminal activity, violence etc.

After all, what's more important: your personal sense of vengeance, or justice if you prefer, or the ultimate good of the broader society as a whole?

[Wanderlust]

Sane Swedes should emigrate to Finland, together we might survive this period in history.

lol I personally like Finland (I hunt there a lot) but most Swedes, sane or otherwise, would never--if anything, they prefer to go West and Southwest in Europe and are not really open to anything East of them. Though more subtle and nuanced than it was decades ago, Swedes are still just as bigoted towards Finns as you apparently are to others. And Swedes are far from perfect but certain aspects of Finnish society--the rampant alcoholism, the propensity for school shootings, the alarming suicide rates--we're simply not interested in.

This Anna Sjöstrand is a sick woman (maybe she has some kind of sexual fetish/fantasy for dark skinned men) and they need to put her into the MENTAL asylum (in Syria?) as soon as possible. She is an enemy & danger to own people and to own fatherland.

In my opinion, only a "sick" mind would even assert this as a possible explanation. Like Angela stated, this has more to do with naivete than it does anything else. Anna Sjöstrand's heart is definitely in the right place and even the FACTS (concerning imprisonment/rehabilitation) lend credence to her worldview, in that Scandinavia has some of the lowest recidivism rates in the world, which means that we're evidently doing something right--and a significant part of that lies in a strong welfare system where people are given a chance to land on their feet and bounce back, as opposed to somewhere like the US, where criminals encounter many roadblocks that prohibit them from successfully reentering society and therefore, ultimately end up back in prison.

A lot of these IS fighters are either mentally ill and/or feel disconnected, disillusioned and disenfranchised; Neo-Nazis and White Nationalists usually fall within this framework as well. Though they most certainly present a danger that must be responsibly addressed and nullified, more than anything, they need help. It is true that there are some psychopathic immigrants/refugees who seek to take advantage of Swedish kindness (wrapped in naivete) and will try to exploit the system to their benefit but even psychopaths respond to positive incentives to fall in line. The ultimate goal is to get them to deescalate and no longer become a threat. "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar." Think about it: Unlike other European nations, Sweden, who takes in a disproportionate amount of Muslim immigrants/refugees, has not been plagued by terror attacks. And part of that, I believe, is our commitment to openness and a "softer touch." Personally, I don't fully agree with Anna Sjöstrand but there is certainly some validity to her argument.

[LeBrok]

l
A lot of these IS fighters are either mentally ill and/or feel disconnected, disillusioned and disenfranchised; Neo-Nazis and White Nationalists usually fall within this framework as well.

Psychiatric institutions, antidepressants and anti-psychotic drugs might be a better solution for them.

[bicicleur]

You do realize your attitude doesn't make sense long term don't you? That is, unless you execute all people who have broken the law, or give them life sentences, you want prisoners to come out less likely to commit crimes than when they went in, don't you? That's why you want to rehabilitate them, i.e. train them for a job, get them anti-agression therapy etc. What you absolutely don't want to happen is that they come out more traumatized, prone to criminal activity, violence etc.

After all, what's more important: your personal sense of vengeance, or justice if you prefer, or the ultimate good of the broader society as a whole?

These people are Nazi's and should be treated likewise.
They joined a regime worse than the Nazi's out of free will. They knew they inlisted themselves to create terror and kill innocent people. They are murderers.
Letting them free on the street unpunished is a very bad example for the youth and it is very disrespectful toward the victims.
Yes I believe the victims have their rights and some vengeance is appropriate.
As far as I am concenrned, these people don't deserve to live. We can do fine without them.

[Wanderlust]

Psychiatric institutions, antidepressants and anti-psychotic drugs might be a better solution for them.

Completely agreed. I've been saying for some time now that "welfare" should extend beyond financial needs and attend to mental/emotional ones as well, in the form of mandatory psychotherapy/psychiatric screenings and care for those who need it. But that would require more financial resources than Swedes are (understandably) willing to bear--it's true that we are still far more generous than many other European nations but over the past decade or so, a lot of services and benefits have been cut in part because of the steady influx and increasing burdens behind supporting so many new people who aren't contributing to the economy. Now, it primarily falls to Nonprofit Organizations to pick up the slack and their resources are limited as well.

It makes me angry because a lot of European countries are not pulling their weight or else we'd be able to provide better care, thereby making the situation more safe and stable for everyone. I think it's dangerous and counterproductive to bring in vulnerable people and then not adequately tend to their mental/emotional traumas and problems--food and shelter certainly help but they are not a cure all. It's not fair for the rest of society to shoulder the risk of ticking time bombs walking around everywhere.

[Aaron1981]

lol I personally like Finland (I hunt there a lot) but most Swedes, sane or otherwise, would never--if anything, they prefer to go West and Southwest in Europe and are not really open to anything East of them. Though more subtle and nuanced than it was decades ago, Swedes are still just as bigoted towards Finns as you apparently are to others. And Swedes are far from perfect but certain aspects of Finnish society--the rampant alcoholism, the propensity for school shootings, the alarming suicide rates--we're simply not interested in.



In my opinion, only a "sick" mind would even assert this as a possible explanation. Like Angela stated, this has more to do with naivete than it does anything else. Anna Sjöstrand's heart is definitely in the right place and even the FACTS (concerning imprisonment/rehabilitation) lend credence to her worldview, in that Scandinavia has some of the lowest recidivism rates in the world, which means that we're evidently doing something right--and a significant part of that lies in a strong welfare system where people are given a chance to land on their feet and bounce back, as opposed to somewhere like the US, where criminals encounter many roadblocks that prohibit them from successfully reentering society and therefore, ultimately end up back in prison.

A lot of these IS fighters are either mentally ill and/or feel disconnected, disillusioned and disenfranchised; Neo-Nazis and White Nationalists usually fall within this framework as well. Though they most certainly present a danger that must be responsibly addressed and nullified, more than anything, they need help. It is true that there are some psychopathic immigrants/refugees who seek to take advantage of Swedish kindness (wrapped in naivete) and will try to exploit the system to their benefit but even psychopaths respond to positive incentives to fall in line. The ultimate goal is to get them to deescalate and no longer become a threat. "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar." Think about it: Unlike other European nations, Sweden, who takes in a disproportionate amount of Muslim immigrants/refugees, has not been plagued by terror attacks. And part of that, I believe, is our commitment to openness and a "softer touch." Personally, I don't fully agree with Anna Sjöstrand but there is certainly some validity to her argument.

I'm afraid there simply hasn't been enough time to feel the side effects of all this. Look to a world of hurt in the future. Hard criminals cannot be rehabilitated. I certainly don't want them on my streets.

[Wanderlust]

I'm afraid there simply hasn't been enough time to feel the side effects of all this. Look to a world of hurt in the future. Hard criminals cannot be rehabilitated. I certainly don't want them on my streets.

It must feel terrible to live in perpetual dread. You have my sympathies.

[Angela]

These people are Nazi's and should be treated likewise.
They joined a regime worse than the Nazi's out of free will. They knew they inlisted themselves to create terror and kill innocent people. They are murderers.
Letting them free on the street unpunished is a very bad example for the youth and it is very disrespectful toward the victims.
Yes I believe the victims have their rights and some vengeance is appropriate.
As far as I am concenrned, these people don't deserve to live. We can do fine without them.

I understand your anger about this. I really do. Some people in my area of Italy spent sixty years pursuing a case against some SS members who committed atrocities here in World War II. We won the case, but it was a pyrrhic victory: the German government blocked extradition for so long that most of them died without paying any price at all, having lived out a normal life span with their families while our family members were taken from us too soon and after great suffering.

There has to be punishment or there is no deterrence.

I was speaking mainly in general terms about whether or not there should be attempts to rehabilitate prisoners while they are confined.

If this prosecutor is proposing that former ISIS members of whom it is known that they committed atrocities, or who were present in the ranks of that group for long enough that there is a presumption of that type of involvement, be allowed to return and released unsupervised (and with full benefits) into the general population, she should be removed from office.

I think any government is within its rights to refuse re-entry. Let them stay in Syria or Iraq and meet their fate.

I hope that she was speaking about some of the young people who went to the Near East and quickly repented and came back. Even then, their return agreement should require they spend time in a supervised environment for deprogramming and psychiatric help. When released they should be kept under surveillance.

I'd also add that there are indeed people who can't be rehabilitated, and the people who make decisions about sentencing, parole, etc., have to be hard eyed realists not naive idealists.

[Ukko]

lol I personally like Finland (I hunt there a lot) but most Swedes, sane or otherwise, would never--if anything, they prefer to go West and Southwest in Europe and are not really open to anything East of them. Though more subtle and nuanced than it was decades ago, Swedes are still just as bigoted towards Finns as you apparently are to others. And Swedes are far from perfect but certain aspects of Finnish society--the rampant alcoholism, the propensity for school shootings, the alarming suicide rates--we're simply not interested in.

Alcoholism and suicides are down and still going down, they where mainly related to the urbanization of the country in one generation, basically a jump from the iron age in to an developed nation, some cant keep up as fast.

But many Finns do have a different attitude towards violence and it is generally an accepted method for personal disputes, they view Swedes as soft, Finns are soft compared to Estonians etc.

Sweden has problems with socialist policies in immigration and other issues that are much larger in scale than anything we have in Finland.

Have fun with your "soft touch" policies, I dont consider you sane for stating that you support them in any shape or form.

[bicicleur]

I understand your anger about this. I really do. Some people in my area of Italy spent sixty years pursuing a case against some SS members who committed atrocities here in World War II. We won the case, but it was a pyrrhic victory: the German government blocked extradition for so long that most of them died without paying any price at all, having lived out a normal life span with their families while our family members were taken from us too soon and after great suffering.

There has to be punishment or there is no deterrence.

I was speaking mainly in general terms about whether or not there should be attempts to rehabilitate prisoners while they are confined.

If this prosecutor is proposing that former ISIS members of whom it is known that they committed atrocities, or who were present in the ranks of that group for long enough that there is a presumption of that type of involvement, be allowed to return and released unsupervised (and with full benefits) into the general population, she should be removed from office.

I think any government is within its rights to refuse re-entry. Let them stay in Syria or Iraq and meet their fate.

I hope that she was speaking about some of the young people who went to the Near East and quickly repented and came back. Even then, their return agreement should require they spend time in a supervised environment for deprogramming and psychiatric help. When released they should be kept under surveillance.

I'd also add that there are indeed people who can't be rehabilitated, and the people who make decisions about sentencing, parole, etc., have to be hard eyed realists not naive idealists.

I think refusing re-entry to ISIS fighters is a good idea.
But most of them leave anonymous to Turkey and there they cross the boarder.
Most of them return anonymous. Some of them got 'fame' over there and they come back as refugee, with another identity.
What exactly they did over there, we don't know. What we know, they volunteered for an organisation with the purpose of terrorising and killing other people. We know what's in the mind of these people and to what ideology they adhere.
I don't know the details of the plan of this lady who is responsable for the integration of Jihady fighters. She wants to offer free housing, I don't think prison or any other punishment is involved. I don't think she has the right to speak or decide in the name of the victims of ISIS.
I don't know if serious and decisive studies have been done about rehabilitation.
I think we don't know whether it works or not. There are not even reliable statistics to compare crime rates between two countries, because in every country statistics are made diffenently.
If we should believe statistics, Sweden has a very big problem with rape, compared to other countries, but I don't believe that is the case.
I guess rehabilitation can work for small criminals who act out of necessity or impulse or lost chances.
But I doubt it can work for people who make the free choice to join organistations like ISIS.
I'm afraid rehabilitation programs involve a lot of improvisation and wishful thinking.
It certainly seems the case with this lady who seems to have gotten some kind of political mandate without the proper competences but very biased by ideology.
That is at least the impression I get when I read this article.

[Wanderlust]

Alcoholism and suicides are down and still going down, they where mainly related to the urbanization of the country in one generation, basically a jump from the iron age in to an developed nation, some cant keep up as fast.

But many Finns do have a different attitude towards violence and it is generally an accepted method for personal disputes, they view Swedes as soft, Finns are soft compared to Estonians etc.

Sweden has problems with socialist policies in immigration and other issues that are much larger in scale than anything we have in Finland.

Have fun with your "soft touch" policies, I dont consider you sane for stating that you support them in any shape or form.

lol Why would I care what you think? Swedes tend to think that Finns are primitive, pseudo-mongoloid drunks who smell bad and talk funny. My personal views on Finns are more balanced but unfortunately the same can't be said for many of my compatriots.

I know that Finns and many in the East see us as being "weak" and "soft" but just remember that Swedes were the ones raiding, trading with and colonizing the known world at the time, Finland included--we've been interacting with Muslims for over a thousand years, when their societies were the "dominant" ones. By nature, we are not a scared people; we have taken risks and were rewarded for it--I'm proud of this.

Having been "aggressors" for much of our history (like many other European nations), Swedes have learned new methods of interfacing with the rest of the world. "Civilization" and "evolution" can do that for a people. As our quality of life has risen, our social consciousness has with it. Finland was a subjugated, very poor country for much of its history and perhaps the epigenetic memories of this have not yet been wiped from your genes.

But when some gain power (particularly the formerly subjugated I tend to notice), they seem to become revisionists and denialists and conveniently forget where they've come from, perhaps as a means of reducing/mitigating shame--this is why I think everyone needs a reminder every now and again. It's a particular pet peeve of mine when people who have served as an oppressed underclass turn around and seek to denigrate and oppress others with no sense of irony. Times have changed--some of us are more reluctant to resort to the primitive ways that once terrorized the world (Finland included). We are trying to be better than our "enemies," not crush them under our feet. It actually takes greater strength to keep one's sword sheathed.

[Ukko]

lol Why would I care what you think? Swedes tend to think that Finns are primitive, pseudo-mongoloid drunks who smell bad and talk funny. My personal views on Finns are more balanced but unfortunately the same can't be said for many of my compatriots.

I know that Finns and many in the East see us as being "weak" and "soft" but just remember that Swedes were the ones raiding, trading with and colonizing the known world at the time, Finland included--we've been interacting with Muslims for over a thousand years, when their societies were the "dominant" ones. By nature, we are not a scared people; we have taken risks and were rewarded for it--I'm proud of this.

Having been "aggressors" for much of our history (like many other European nations), Swedes have learned new methods of interfacing with the rest of the world. "Civilization" and "evolution" can do that for a people. As our quality of life has risen, our social consciousness has with it. Finland was a subjugated, very poor country for much of its history and perhaps the epigenetic memories of this have not yet been wiped from your genes.

But when some gain power (particularly the formerly subjugated I tend to notice), they seem to become revisionists and denialists and conveniently forget where they've come from, perhaps as a means of reducing/mitigating shame--this is why I think everyone needs a reminder every now and again. It's a particular pet peeve of mine when people who have served as an oppressed underclass turn around and seek to denigrate and oppress others with no sense of irony. Times have changed--some of us are more reluctant to resort to the primitive ways that once terrorized the world (Finland included). We are trying to be better than our "enemies," not crush them under our feet. It actually takes greater strength to keep one's sword sheathed.

Your knowledge of history is severely lacking, you live in an fantasy world.

I doubt your claim you have ever even visited Finland, where have these hunting trips taken place?

I will categorically destroy your claims one at a time if I have time this weekend.

Sweden is a dying nation, your genes and culture will disappear from this planet, you can be in denial about is but that is a statistical fact.

[LeBrok]

But when some gain power (particularly the formerly subjugated I tend to notice), they seem to become revisionists and denialists and conveniently forget where they've come from, perhaps as a means of reducing/mitigating shame--this is why I think everyone needs a reminder every now and again. It's a particular pet peeve of mine when people who have served as an oppressed underclass turn around and seek to denigrate and oppress others with no sense of irony. Times have changed--some of us are more reluctant to resort to the primitive ways that once terrorized the world (Finland included). We are trying to be better than our "enemies," not crush them under our feet. It actually takes greater strength to keep one's sword sheathed.

Definitely there is something too it. I think oppression pushes oppressed people into a defensive mode, that includes hypernationalism. This one is known to overblow self value and degrade "the others". From thinking of themselves as special and chosen by God, to something benign like jokes, where the others are always the stupid ones.

[Maciamo]

I think refusing re-entry to ISIS fighters is a good idea.
But most of them leave anonymous to Turkey and there they cross the boarder.
Most of them return anonymous. Some of them got 'fame' over there and they come back as refugee, with another identity.
What exactly they did over there, we don't know. What we know, they volunteered for an organisation with the purpose of terrorising and killing other people. We know what's in the mind of these people and to what ideology they adhere.
I don't know the details of the plan of this lady who is responsable for the integration of Jihady fighters. She wants to offer free housing, I don't think prison or any other punishment is involved. I don't think she has the right to speak or decide in the name of the victims of ISIS.
I don't know if serious and decisive studies have been done about rehabilitation.
I think we don't know whether it works or not. There are not even reliable statistics to compare crime rates between two countries, because in every country statistics are made diffenently.
If we should believe statistics, Sweden has a very big problem with rape, compared to other countries, but I don't believe that is the case.
I guess rehabilitation can work for small criminals who act out of necessity or impulse or lost chances.
But I doubt it can work for people who make the free choice to join organistations like ISIS.
I'm afraid rehabilitation programs involve a lot of improvisation and wishful thinking.
It certainly seems the case with this lady who seems to have gotten some kind of political mandate without the proper competences but very biased by ideology.
That is at least the impression I get when I read this article.

You are speaking my mind, especially for the sentences I have highlighted in bold.