Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 125

Thread: How "Slavic" are South Slavs?

  1. #26
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,330
    Points
    113,888
    Level
    100
    Points: 113,888, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by stoningbull54 View Post
    Your Bosnjak sample is very close to my Serbian sample, as is the Croatian sample. I have substantial ancestry originating from Herzegovina. I have a theory that this is the reason why many Serbs, Croats and Bosnjaks share a common language and genetics - much of the population right now within Bosnia, Serbia, and Croatia has its origins in East Herzegovina. They repopulated areas which were left vacant by the Turks and brought their language (East Herzegovinian Neo-Stokavian) and gene pool with them.
    "Of course they repopulated from your ancestral area." ;) Don't you think your assessment might be skewed by your ethnic feelings?

    See, from genetic research we know that original population o Balkans was already fairly homogenous, and we have reason to suspect that invading Slavs were genetically and culturally homogenous too. It all might easily add up to big genetic and cultural similarities of this area. Farther similarities could be explained by joined history through last 1,500 years.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    DuPidh's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-07-15
    Posts
    446
    Points
    350
    Level
    3
    Points: 350, Level: 3
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 100
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Cuba



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    "Of course they repopulated from your ancestral area." ;) Don't you think your assessment might be skewed by your ethnic feelings?

    See, from genetic research we know that original population o Balkans was already fairly homogenous, and we have reason to suspect that invading Slavs were genetically and culturally homogenous too. It all might easily add up to big genetic and cultural similarities of this area. Farther similarities could be explained by joined history through last 1,500 years.
    Slavs were nomadic at the time they invaded Balkans. As nomads crossing from south Poland to the present day Balkans could have taken more than 100 years so they mixed a lot with other people. So the homogeneity of Slavs is fairy tale. Slavs also mixed with Balkan populations. Also the genes are for the most part evolutionary, which means populations unless they live together will stay the same, if they separate, they evolutionary drift genetically. I heard a medical doctor once saying that in a generation there are about 20 to 25 mutation happening.If this is true since I don't know much about genetics it could be between 1000 to 1500 mutations that south Slavs have, but for the reason of isolation other Slavs don't, so slowly but surely south Slavs have drifted enough to be called something else. To me south Slavs are something less than 40% Slavs. What will remain Slav for the time to come is the memory and probably the culture. To me the purist Slavs should be the Poles. Russia could have pockets of pure Slavs but majority has Genghis Khan genes.

  3. #28
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,330
    Points
    113,888
    Level
    100
    Points: 113,888, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Slavs were nomadic at the time they invaded Balkans. As nomads crossing from south Poland to the present day Balkans could have taken more than 100 years so they mixed a lot with other people. So the homogeneity of Slavs is fairy tale. Slavs also mixed with Balkan populations. Also the genes are for the most part evolutionary, which means populations unless they live together will stay the same, if they separate, they evolutionary drift genetically. I heard a medical doctor once saying that in a generation there are about 20 to 25 mutation happening.If this is true since I don't know much about genetics it could be between 1000 to 1500 mutations that south Slavs have, but for the reason of isolation other Slavs don't, so slowly but surely south Slavs have drifted enough to be called something else. To me south Slavs are something less than 40% Slavs. What will remain Slav for the time to come is the memory and probably the culture. To me the purist Slavs should be the Poles. Russia could have pockets of pure Slavs but majority has Genghis Khan genes.
    Don't waste your time, nobody takes anything you say seriously.

  4. #29
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    DuPidh's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-07-15
    Posts
    446
    Points
    350
    Level
    3
    Points: 350, Level: 3
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 100
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Cuba



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Don't waste your time, nobody takes anything you say seriously.
    I expect non serious readers of this forum, not to take me seriously.
    But the serious readers will. I have a point. I have made my point. Point is South Slavs, if we take as reference point South Poland Slavs, are less than 30% Slavs. Every other attempt, to prove otherwise is a lie.

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Bosnian Boss's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-07-15
    Location
    California
    Posts
    28
    Points
    4,709
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,709, Level: 20
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 341
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-M423
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1C1

    Ethnic group
    Bosniak, Serb, Croat, Czech, German
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    I expect non serious readers of this forum, not to take me seriously.
    But the serious readers will. I have a point. I have made my point. Point is South Slavs, if we take as reference point South Poland Slavs, are less than 30% Slavs. Every other attempt, to prove otherwise is a lie.
    You need to have some serious data to back up your assertions.

  6. #31
    Banned Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,071
    Points
    5,328
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,328, Level: 21
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 26.0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian Boss View Post
    You need to have some serious data to back up your assertions.
    The only way to give an exhaustive answer to your curiosity is:
    1) Decide definitely what can be considered a slavic haplogroups.
    2) Testing all the inhabitants of South slavic countries.

  7. #32
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,948
    Points
    369,722
    Level
    100
    Points: 369,722, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.7%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Good grief. Uniparental markers don't tell you the percent "Slavic" of any person or population group. That's less than 2% of your total dna. You need autosomal dna. I personally think 30% is on the low side for certain groups, i.e. Croatians, for example.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  8. #33
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,591
    Points
    68,997
    Level
    81
    Points: 68,997, Level: 81
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 753
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    A lot of Poles look like South Slavs, which means that South Slavs are more Slavic than they think (or that Poles are more Balkan than they think - but it doesn't make sense, considering directions of historical migrations):

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post517704

  9. #34
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    764
    Points
    6,875
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,875, Level: 24
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 175
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Sweden



    Negligible genetic flow in Slavic expansion to the Balcans

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...in-slavic.html

    The data suggest that genetic diversity of the present-day Slavs was predominantly shaped in situ, and we detect two different substrata: ‘central-east European’ for West and East Slavs, and ‘south-east European’ for South Slavs.

  10. #35
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    22,749
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,749, Level: 46
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 801
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian Boss View Post
    I have. Nothing has been conclusive.
    Yes you're right, and we have more knowledge now.

    I-CTS10228 carriers were Mesolithic survivors.

    According new data TMRCA is 3800 years!

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

    We can see for Alsace man (Bas-Rhin Alsace, France is in the border with Germany).

    It is clear that I-CTS10228 is not originally Slavic.

    And I-CTS10228 came to the Balkans much before Slavs.

    I-A2512 found in Greece, TMRCA 2200 years, nothing to do with Slavs.

    Awareness grows that Bastarnae is the best candidate for these Mesolithic survivors. And Bastarnae first time arrived to the Balkans, deep in the Thracian territory, 179 BC, 30,000 people. Later Bastarnae settled Balkans in much bigger numbers.

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    354
    Points
    2,899
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,899, Level: 15
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 151
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Albania



    In the genetic sense if one considers i2a-"din" as a slavic marker than it is roughly 40% to 65%.

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    354
    Points
    2,899
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,899, Level: 15
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 151
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Albania



    ^^ Excluding Bulgarians of course.

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    764
    Points
    6,875
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,875, Level: 24
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 175
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Sweden



    Garrick:And I-CTS10228 came to the Balkans much before Slavs.


    How do you know that?

  14. #39
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    764
    Points
    6,875
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,875, Level: 24
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 175
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Sweden



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    In the genetic sense if one considers i2a-"din" as a slavic marker than it is roughly 40% to 65%.
    Which one is I2a-Din?

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

  15. #40
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    22,749
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,749, Level: 46
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 801
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Garrick:And I-CTS10228 came to the Balkans much before Slavs.


    How do you know that?
    There is theory with strong foundation that European Mesolithic survivors I-CTS10228 carriers were Bastarnae people.

    If this theory be proven I-CTS10228 arrived in the Balkans first time (historical record) 179 BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post

    In short:

    One of strong points are findings and proofs of Ukrainian scientists:

    Zarubintsy culture is Bastarnaian dominantly.

    In this way thesis of Soviet scientists that Zarubintsy culture was Slavic is rejected.

    But Zarubintsy culture is predecessor of Kiev culture which was Slavic. It means Bastarnae had one of main roles in complex Slavic ethnogenesis, they became part of Slavic population.

    We know movement Bastarnae people from Vistula area and surrounding to Dacian and Sarmatian borders, Bastarnae mixed with Sarmatians and Dacians.

    We know that Bastarnae entered in the Romania and Balkans more times in big numbers, and mixed with local Dacian/Thracian population.

    From histrorical sources we know that Bastrnae were very numerous that some authors highlight they are not tribe but people (modern term nation!).

    Origin of Bastarnae is mysterious.

    For most scientists they were Germans, some scientists think they were Celts, and there are more opinions.

    What we know yet, they probably were nomads.

    Considering the time and areas of their appearance, their movements, timely and territorial, Bastarnae are right candidate that they were dominantly I-CTS10228 carriers.

    I-CTS10228 carriers were Old European Mesolitic survivors, according new findings I-CTS10228 is formed 5300 ago, and TMRCA is 3800 years.

    I-CTS10228* is man from Alsace (Bas-Rhin), France.

    We know that I-M423, ancestor of I-CTS10228, is found is Loschbour, Louxembourg, 8000 years old man from Mesolithic.

    We can assume where in Europe Mesolitic survivors could lived and moved, probably Western/Central Europe, and beyond.

    Central Europe today according the World Factbook is made up of the following countries: Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland.

    They could have contact with proto-Celts and Celts, and Illyrians etc.

    Germanic tribes had arrived from North.

    When Bastarnae formed dominantly from Mesolithic survivor population I-CTS10228 carriers, they could have some Celtic elements, even Illyrian.

    But probably with flow of time more German (I1), therefore it can be possible that Bastarnae mostly were mix I-CTS10228 (dominantly) and any I1 in any ratio.

    What is interesting there are opinions among scientists that their name is from the word bastard.

    Maybe they could look to other populations as unknown.

    They probably adopted German language.

    I-CTS10228 carriers could be in other tribes too (as Sciiri for example) but probably in much less numbers.

    In areas where and time when they lived Mesolithic survivors didn't have contact with R1a clades who are dominant in Slavic population. How Bastarnae moved to the East they could have contact.

    In 200 BC Bastarnae inhabited the region between Carpatian mountains, and to the north till river Dnieper and to the south borders of Dacia.

    Balkans: I-CTS10228 since 179 BC till Slavic arriving 6th century

    * Bastarnae first enterd in Balkans, area in todays Macedonia 179 BC.

    * Bastarnae settled Balkans brought from the Balkan rulers (not as invaders!), some sources speak about process of "ethnic engineering" where imperial rulers did massive deportation/settling of ethnic groups as part of military/political plan.

    * Bastarnae mixed with Thracians/Dacians (today's Romania, Moldavia, and Balkan countries Serbia, Bulgaria, Macedonia etc.)

    * One Western source claims that substantial part of Balkan population till 5 century AD was mixed Tracian/Bastarnae!

    * Plus, we can have in mind with the growth power of Goths Bastarnae became their allies, and they participated in Gothic invasions in the Balkans. It means, in Gothic invasions, I-CTS10228 arrived in the Balkans too.

    Ancient Y-DNA samples in Central Europe and samples in the Romania/Balkans 200 BC-570 AD will confirm or disprove these assumptions.

    An habit can be complicating because Bastarnae practiced burning process till 900 degrees Celsius.

    But we can suppose scientists can find appropriate samples.

    Story about Bastarnae is fascinating it is story about struggle for survival, in one period of history I-CTS10228 carriers barely survived but after that they spread in many directions.

    First Homo sapiens in Europe during 45,000 to 28,000 years ago, belonged CT, C1a, C1b, F and I. I survived, developed in I1 and I2 and I-CTS10228 carriers are today more numerous I2 carriers in Europe.

  16. #41
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    764
    Points
    6,875
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,875, Level: 24
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 175
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Sweden



    The name of Bastarnae in Ptolemy´s Geography is Poikinos/Poikinoi.This is the same as poika that means boy in Finnish.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-06-17
    Posts
    78
    Points
    1,717
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,717, Level: 11
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 133
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: Greece



    If by Slavic we are talking about recent east European contribution, then roughly:
    Croatians Serbs 40-50%
    Bosniaks 1/3rd
    Bulgarians 1/3rd
    Montenegrin/Fyromians 25%


    Non Slavs:
    Albanians 10-15%
    Greeks <10%
    Romanians 25%

  18. #43
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    354
    Points
    2,899
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,899, Level: 15
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 151
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Where did you get those messy numbers?

  19. #44
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-06-17
    Posts
    78
    Points
    1,717
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,717, Level: 11
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 133
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: Greece



    Ancestry Dna averages i came across in different videos adjusted(speculating) to the fact that east European contribution in the Balkans isn't all recent. Fact is there is a healthy amount of eastern European contribution in regions in the east and south(and italy) that Slavs never stepped a foot.

  20. #45
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    354
    Points
    2,899
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,899, Level: 15
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 151
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Albania



    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
    R1a and I2a are common Slavic markers.

  21. #46
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    22,749
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,749, Level: 46
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 801
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    If by Slavic we are talking about recent east European contribution, then roughly:
    Croatians Serbs 40-50%
    Bosniaks 1/3rd
    Bulgarians 1/3rd
    Montenegrin/Fyromians 25%


    Non Slavs:
    Albanians 10-15%
    Greeks <10%
    Romanians 25%
    East European admixture

    Based on scientific data.

    Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Northern Bulgaria 20-30%, Croatia, Serbia somewhere 15-20%, Southern Bulgaria 15-20%

    Herzegovina even lower 10-15%

    Romania 20-30%

    Greece 10-15%, Northern Greece 15-20%

    Albania 10-15%

    Between Balkan countries plus Romania differences are not much big.


  22. #47
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    10-12-16
    Posts
    89
    Points
    2,867
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,867, Level: 15
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 183
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    East European admixture

    Based on scientific data.

    Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Northern Bulgaria 20-30%, Croatia, Serbia somewhere 15-20%, Southern Bulgaria 15-20%

    Herzegovina even lower 10-15%

    Romania 20-30%

    Greece 10-15%, Northern Greece 15-20%

    Albania 10-15%

    Between Balkan countries plus Romania differences are not much big.

    i wouldn't say this map is accurate with regards to macedonia and bulgaria, most serbian samples shift much further north than the macedonian/bulgarian/montenegrin ones i've seen. i really doubt those parts of turkey and greece have a higher eastern euro admixture than croatia, which looks very central european to me based on the results i've seen posted.

    i guess for sake of articulation, are we assuming the eastern euro component is pure slavic?

  23. #48
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    764
    Points
    6,875
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,875, Level: 24
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 175
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Sweden



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
    R1a and I2a are common Slavic markers.
    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...in-slavic.html
    A new genetic study comes to confirm what most of us already knew: that Southern Slavs don't show any significant signature of immigration from the core Slavic area North and NE of the Carpathian Mountains that can be attributed to the so-called Slavic migrations of the Dark Age.

  24. #49
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,948
    Points
    369,722
    Level
    100
    Points: 369,722, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.7%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...in-slavic.html
    A new genetic study comes to confirm what most of us already knew: that Southern Slavs don't show any significant signature of immigration from the core Slavic area North and NE of the Carpathian Mountains that can be attributed to the so-called Slavic migrations of the Dark Age.
    That is not accurate.

    See: Ralph and Coop IBD analysis
    http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555


    Check out Serbia Croatia below and when the changes occurred. IBD doesn't lie, my friend...at least not when done by people of this caliber...

    Attachment 9107

    I think the operative time period is probably 500 BC to 500 AD.

  25. #50
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    22,749
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,749, Level: 46
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 801
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That is not accurate.

    See: Ralph and Coop IBD analysis
    http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555


    Check out Serbia Croatia below and when the changes occurred. IBD doesn't lie, my friend...at least not when done by people of this caliber...

    Attachment 9107

    I think the operative time period is probably 500 BC to 500 AD.
    It was a lot of critiques to the methods applied by authors and it is shown different approaches are necessary.

    For example Geary and Veermah, Mapping European Population Movement through Genomic Research 2016, in critique above mentioned and some other papers argue:

    "Can we be so sure that if all four grandparents came from the same village, that their ancestors had been in that village since time immemorial, or at least since the Danes, Anglo-Saxons, Huns, or Slavs arrived? Over centuries and millennia, populations do not necessarily remain stable. Subsequent internal migrations, the introduction of new genetic material through intermarriage

    with other communities, the forced resettlement of slaves or dependent labor, all have the potential to change the genetic profile of a population in a very dynamic manner that cannot easily be accounted for by population genetic models.

    Perhaps even more significant an obstacle to working backward from modern DNA is the problem that the modern population will represent only a portion of the historical population, that portion which for whatever reason was successful in transmitting its genetic data to the present. For presentist-minded scientists, who naturally want to understand the genetic makeup of contemporary European populations, this is unproblematic. However, it poses a serious problem for historians who want to understand not just the present but rather the alterity of the past. Thus, modern DNA is likely to represent only a portion of the genetic diversity of past populations. It is, in essence, a way to study the winners, and ignores the losers in genetic history, regardless of how important they may have been in changing history.

    A few studies have highlighted how quickly genetic profiles can change because of demographic effects, underlining the lack of inferential power when relying only on modern DNA analysis for historical research. Helgason et al. have performed extensive research on both modern and ancient DNA from Iceland. Comparing Icelanders with Norwegians on the one hand, and Irish and Scots on the other, they found that roughly 75% of founding Icelandic males were of Scandinavian origin and 25% of Irish or Scots, while the majority of female lineages had Gaelic origins and only about 37% Norse. When they compared ancient DNA extracted from Viking-age burials with that of the modern population however, they found that more than 50% of the original genetic diversity in the founding medieval population was not represented in the modern Icelandic population. Genetic drift appears to have had an enormous influence on the genetic profile of modern Iceland, and thus understanding the differential contributions of Y-chromosomal and mtDNA in the migratory population needs to take into account not only contemporary populations but, when possible, ancient DNA as well.

    More recently, a preliminary study by our research team led by Stephanie Vai and Silvia Ghirotto looked at the mtDNA from sixth century cemeteries in the Piedmont and compared it with contemporary samples from the same region. We found strong evidence for discontinuity with regard to matrilineal genetic diversity between the early Middle Ages and these present populations in all but one case. This, along with the studies of Iceland described above, suggests that 1,500 years of history do matter with regard to genetic diversity. Thus, while modern genetic research is significant for a spectrum of issues involving health and possibly history, assumptions about the relationship between present and past populations must be tested against ancient DNA collected from the individuals we are actually attempting to study, rather than relying automatically on modern proxies."


    In essence these and other authors highlight that without ancient/historical samples (for every epoch) we can only speculate if look present day situation. Yes collecting data by epochs require enormous efforts, time and costs and therefore we will get only small portions of knowledge after every publicised ancient DNA research and so we will gradually assemble a giant puzzle with lots of empty parts.

    I completely agree with you that without samples from 179 BC till 6th century in Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria and beyond we cannot know if Bastarnae have mixed in big numbers with Dacians and Thracians (subtantial proportion of Balkan population was Bastarnae origin according one author).

    Also without samples in Central Europe and beyond (Western/Eastern Europe + Balkans) in different epoches since 1800 BC till 500 AD we cannot know where I-CTS10228 carriers settled and moved and if Bastarnae or any other population were carrier of this haplogroup.

    But of course we can give assumptions according evidence which is avaliable.

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •