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Thread: How "Slavic" are South Slavs?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Whom did I offend? Obviously you don't watch the "History Channel"!?
    HISTORY CHANNEL? If you keep getting information from that absurdly laughable channel, you'll soon write posts about the extraterrestrial masters of Ancient Egypt and their DNA contribution here. LOL

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Croats and Slovenes are autosomally closer to Ukrainians than to Italians despite of being gheographicaly right next to Italians.
    There were also a lot of interaction between Slovenia, Croatia and Italy in the ancient times so that adds more weight to the evidence.

    South Slavs are Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Croats and Slovenes are autosomally closer to Ukrainians than to Italians despite of being gheographicaly right next to Italians.
    There were also a lot of interaction between Slovenia, Croatia and Italy in the ancient times so that adds more weight to the evidence.

    South Slavs are Slavs.

    Croats and Slovenes are even considerably distant from Bulgarians, Macedonians, Montenegrins, and to some extent even from Serbs and Bosniaks, who are all considered South Slavic people.

    Especially Slovenes are clearly not average South Slavs.

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    Affiliations can be manipulated by nation states. There's no need to speculate or guess. We have the data. No South Slavs plot near Russians or even Poles. Some Croatians and especially Slovenes are different, as Pax pointed out. Slovenes are in fact closer to Central Europeans.

    See:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105090

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...eway-to-Europe

    [IMG][/IMG]


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Croats and Slovenes are even considerably distant from Bulgarians, Macedonians, Montenegrins, and to some extent even from Serbs and Bosniaks, who are all considered South Slavic people.

    Especially Slovenes are clearly not average South Slavs.
    Yeah the southernmost were more native mixed. But they have a considerable Slavic ancestry. Also northern Slavs are not pure Slavs either because they have been mixed with other northern tribes which is also one of reasons of the genetic distance between the Slavs.

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    1/3 of Slovenia was Italian in antiquity. As we can see, according to genetics it easy to see that Slavs did push the natives out, as Slovenes are genetically different from Italians, despite of being neighbors geographically, and they are much more close to central Slavs and Ukrainians.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0105090.g003

    But yes, Slovenes are not quite South Slavs.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post

    1/3 of Slovenia was Italian in antiquity. As we can see, according to genetics it easy to see that Slavs did push the natives out, as Slovenes are genetically different from Italians, despite of being neighbors geographically, and they are much more close to central Slavs and Ukrainians.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0105090.g003
    But yes, Slovenes are not quite South Slavs.
    looking at your map...it is a roman map ........................late bronze-age and early iron age would see the Histrian ( illyrians ) in control of Tergestium ( trieste ) and Aquileia ( before it was built by the Romans ) and into Venetia lands up to current town of oderzo.
    The other towns in slovenia like Emona ( current capital ) was under the illyrians of Noricum
    .
    I have drawn a map of Illyrians tribes as per historian Strabo documents ............the Cattai tribe seems the one which some say illyrian and some say venetic
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    (...)
    Is that the study which used Estonian Polish samples to represent Poland?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No South Slavs plot near Russians
    Why should Russians be used as a proxy for Proto-Slavs, if Slavs were not native to Russia and did not originate from there? Slavs originated somewhere to the west of Russia and expanded into Russia during the Dark Ages. While in Russia, Slavs assimilated many Baltic and Uralic (Finno-Ugric) speakers. The same applies to North-East Poland which used to be Baltic-speaking in the Iron Age, and Slavs assimilated those Balts after expanding there.

    Even Warsaw itself is a toponym of Baltic origin according to some sources.

    If anything, some Ukrainians are probably a better proxy for Proto-Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post

    1/3 of Slovenia was Italian in antiquity. As we can see, according to genetics it easy to see that Slavs did push the natives out, as Slovenes are genetically different from Italians, despite of being neighbors geographically, and they are much more close to central Slavs and Ukrainians.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0105090.g003

    But yes, Slovenes are not quite South Slavs.
    Slovenes are between one and a half million and two million people today. 100% ethnic Slovenes are even less. A very small population compared to Italians (Italy around 1000 AD had about 7 million inhabitants). When the Slovenes arrived in the Eastern Alps after the 6th century AD they were also a lot less. They also remained isolated from other Slavic migrations in the Balkans. Even if they wanted to, they could not have influenced Italians too much genetically.

    How many were the Slovenes arrived between the 6th and 9th century AD? Between 20 thousand and 50 thousand? Not many more. I don't even think that Slovenes pushed all the natives out. Many were assimilated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Why should Russians be used as a proxy for Proto-Slavs, if Slavs were not native to Russia and did not originate from there? Slavs originated somewhere to the west of Russia and expanded into Russia during the Dark Ages. While in Russia, Slavs assimilated many Baltic and Uralic (Finno-Ugric) speakers. The same applies to North-East Poland which used to be Baltic-speaking in the Iron Age, and Slavs assimilated those Balts after expanding there.

    Even Warsaw itself is a toponym of Baltic origin according to some sources.

    If anything, some Ukrainians are probably a better proxy for Proto-Slavs.
    Wait. Everybody has their opinion on this. Some say Poles , some say Ukrainians , some say Bielorussian. Stop tricking us , give the reasons why and edvidence spasiba moj brat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Im Albanian. Thought I would post my results to see how I plot on your graph. If that's cool.

    Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

    Kit M635564

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 West_Med 23.68
    2 East_Med 20.92
    3 North_Sea 13.76
    4 Atlantic 13.17
    5 West_Asian 11.34
    6 Baltic 9.34
    7 Eastern_Euro 6.71
    8 Red_Sea 1.09

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Greek_Thessaly 7.03
    2 Greek 8.33
    3 Tuscan 8.8
    4 Central_Greek 10.5
    5 Italian_Abruzzo 10.87
    6 West_Sicilian 11.36
    7 East_Sicilian 11.41
    8 North_Italian 11.72
    9 Bulgarian 12.1
    10 Ashkenazi 12.66
    11 South_Italian 12.81
    12 Romanian 13.77
    13 Serbian 16.2
    14 Italian_Jewish 16.86
    15 Algerian_Jewish 17.93
    16 Portuguese 18.57
    17 Sephardic_Jewish 18.66
    18 Spanish_Galicia 18.83
    19 Spanish_Extremadura 19.08
    20 Spanish_Andalucia 19.42

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 82.1% Greek_Thessaly + 17.9% Sardinian @ 3.87
    2 72.9% Greek_Thessaly + 27.1% North_Italian @ 5.94
    3 83.8% Greek_Thessaly + 16.2% Spanish_Andalucia @ 6.06
    4 82.3% Greek + 17.7% Sardinian @ 6.08
    5 86.2% Greek_Thessaly + 13.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 6.11
    6 87.1% Greek_Thessaly + 12.9% Southwest_French @ 6.17
    7 90.8% Greek_Thessaly + 9.2% French_Basque @ 6.19
    8 87.3% Greek_Thessaly + 12.7% Spanish_Aragon @ 6.2
    9 86.4% Greek_Thessaly + 13.6% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 6.22
    10 85.9% Greek_Thessaly + 14.1% Spanish_Valencia @ 6.23
    11 66.2% Greek_Thessaly + 33.8% Tuscan @ 6.28
    12 85.1% Greek_Thessaly + 14.9% Portuguese @ 6.32
    13 85.7% Greek_Thessaly + 14.3% Spanish_Extremadura @ 6.35
    14 86.5% Greek_Thessaly + 13.5% Spanish_Cataluna @ 6.37
    15 86.4% Greek_Thessaly + 13.6% Spanish_Murcia @ 6.38
    16 86.1% Greek_Thessaly + 13.9% Spanish_Galicia @ 6.41
    17 87.8% Greek_Thessaly + 12.2% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 6.48
    18 66.7% Greek + 33.3% North_Italian @ 6.84
    19 72.5% Bulgarian + 27.5% Sardinian @ 6.87
    20 93.7% Greek_Thessaly + 6.3% French @ 6.88

    Hello Dibran,

    I am Greek and I happened to notice that our results have some similarities. I come 50% from Northwestern Greece (area of Ioannina), 25% from Kephalonia and 25% from Kea.
    I am researching our origins. Our village in Ioannina was a Slavic settlement of the Middle Ages (Tserkovista). Its name changed to Greek in the 20th century. My Epirot family also has Vlach roots (from two sides) and Arvanite roots (from at least one side). Also my father's family (Kephalonia and Kea) must have some more limited Arvanite elements too (judging from his admixture and DNA relatives).
    It is interesting for me to understand how genetically and culturally mixed we all are in the Balkans.

    Here are my K15 results and oracle:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 22.16
    2 West_Med 17.68
    3 Atlantic 15.18
    4 West_Asian 12.27
    5 Baltic 11.18
    6 Eastern_Euro 9.03
    7 North_Sea 7.76
    8 Red_Sea 3.94


    Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
    15 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Greek @ 3.198315
    2 Greek_Thessaly @ 8.312538
    3 Central_Greek @ 9.702641
    4 Italian_Abruzzo @ 10.250897
    5 Bulgarian @ 10.376774
    6 Ashkenazi @ 10.435604
    7 East_Sicilian @ 10.710502
    8 West_Sicilian @ 10.834771
    9 Tuscan @ 11.803734
    10 South_Italian @ 13.105350
    11 Romanian @ 13.671769
    12 North_Italian @ 16.973547
    13 Italian_Jewish @ 17.570667
    14 Serbian @ 17.572933
    15 Sephardic_Jewish @ 17.886965
    16 Algerian_Jewish @ 18.297087
    17 Tunisian_Jewish @ 22.386589
    18 Moldavian @ 23.262486
    19 Libyan_Jewish @ 24.371212
    20 Cyprian @ 24.816864

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Greek +50% Greek @ 3.198315


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Greek +25% Greek +25% Greek @ 3.198315


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
    1 Greek + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 3.143283
    2 Greek + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.159401
    3 Greek + Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 3.188573
    4 Greek + Greek + Greek + Greek @ 3.198315
    5 Greek + Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.201864
    6 Greek + Kurdish_Jewish + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian @ 3.204375
    7 Assyrian + Greek + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 3.288273
    8 Estonian_Polish + Greek + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian @ 3.289652
    9 Belorussian + Greek + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian @ 3.297223
    10 Greek + Iranian_Jewish + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian @ 3.304584
    11 Assyrian + Greek + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.363059
    12 Assyrian + Greek + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian @ 3.384019
    13 Estonian_Polish + Greek + Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 3.444725
    14 Assyrian + Estonian_Polish + Greek + Sardinian @ 3.460693
    15 Belorussian + Greek + Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 3.462755
    16 Assyrian + Belorussian + Greek + Sardinian @ 3.464590
    17 Belorussian + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian + West_Sicilian @ 3.594038
    18 Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian + West_Sicilian @ 3.598102
    19 Assyrian + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian + West_Sicilian @ 3.609884
    20 Estonian_Polish + Iranian_Jewish + Italian_Abruzzo + Sardinian @ 3.611830

    Done.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Greece



    Also, my K13 results, which are a bit different:


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 25.18
    2 West_Med 21.67
    3 Baltic 18.21
    4 North_Atlantic 16.97
    5 West_Asian 12.62
    6 Red_Sea 3.75
    7 East_Asian 1.20


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Greek_Thessaly @ 3.666719
    2 Central_Greek @ 9.449551
    3 Bulgarian @ 10.079420
    4 East_Sicilian @ 10.860690
    5 Italian_Abruzzo @ 11.576796
    6 West_Sicilian @ 12.273549
    7 Romanian @ 13.143967
    8 Ashkenazi @ 13.440406
    9 Tuscan @ 13.884970
    10 South_Italian @ 14.375315
    11 Serbian @ 18.004507
    12 North_Italian @ 18.399658
    13 Algerian_Jewish @ 20.174377
    14 Italian_Jewish @ 20.796219
    15 Sephardic_Jewish @ 21.003513
    16 Moldavian @ 23.899855
    17 Tunisian_Jewish @ 24.682604
    18 Libyan_Jewish @ 24.937746
    19 Cyprian @ 26.493221
    20 Croatian @ 27.444063

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Bulgarian +50% Central_Greek @ 3.605400


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Bulgarian +25% Central_Greek +25% East_Sicilian @ 3.551438


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++
    1 Ashkenazi + Georgian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 2.652073
    2 Ashkenazi + Assyrian + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 2.689845
    3 Ashkenazi + Belorussian + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 2.898541
    4 Ashkenazi + Estonian_Polish + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 3.154184
    5 Ashkenazi + Kurdish_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.164341
    6 Central_Greek + Kurdish_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.260642
    7 Ashkenazi + Assyrian + Belorussian + Sardinian @ 3.278632
    8 Greek_Thessaly + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.278685
    9 Ashkenazi + Georgian_Jewish + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian @ 3.314328
    10 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.320706
    11 Greek_Thessaly + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 3.333169
    12 Central_Greek + Iranian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.342300
    13 Bulgarian + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 3.371904
    14 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly @ 3.372509
    15 Croatian + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly @ 3.382109
    16 Greek_Thessaly + Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.387726
    17 Algerian_Jewish + Bulgarian + Bulgarian + Greek_Thessaly @ 3.395472
    18 Ashkenazi + Iranian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.397145
    19 Algerian_Jewish + Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Ukrainian @ 3.414869
    20 Assyrian + Central_Greek + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.415889

    Done.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandra_K View Post
    Also, my K13 results, which are a bit different:


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 25.18
    2 West_Med 21.67
    3 Baltic 18.21
    4 North_Atlantic 16.97
    5 West_Asian 12.62
    6 Red_Sea 3.75
    7 East_Asian 1.20


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Greek_Thessaly @ 3.666719
    2 Central_Greek @ 9.449551
    3 Bulgarian @ 10.079420
    4 East_Sicilian @ 10.860690
    5 Italian_Abruzzo @ 11.576796
    6 West_Sicilian @ 12.273549
    7 Romanian @ 13.143967
    8 Ashkenazi @ 13.440406
    9 Tuscan @ 13.884970
    10 South_Italian @ 14.375315
    11 Serbian @ 18.004507
    12 North_Italian @ 18.399658
    13 Algerian_Jewish @ 20.174377
    14 Italian_Jewish @ 20.796219
    15 Sephardic_Jewish @ 21.003513
    16 Moldavian @ 23.899855
    17 Tunisian_Jewish @ 24.682604
    18 Libyan_Jewish @ 24.937746
    19 Cyprian @ 26.493221
    20 Croatian @ 27.444063

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Bulgarian +50% Central_Greek @ 3.605400


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Bulgarian +25% Central_Greek +25% East_Sicilian @ 3.551438


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++
    1 Ashkenazi + Georgian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 2.652073
    2 Ashkenazi + Assyrian + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 2.689845
    3 Ashkenazi + Belorussian + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 2.898541
    4 Ashkenazi + Estonian_Polish + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 3.154184
    5 Ashkenazi + Kurdish_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.164341
    6 Central_Greek + Kurdish_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.260642
    7 Ashkenazi + Assyrian + Belorussian + Sardinian @ 3.278632
    8 Greek_Thessaly + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.278685
    9 Ashkenazi + Georgian_Jewish + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian @ 3.314328
    10 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.320706
    11 Greek_Thessaly + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 3.333169
    12 Central_Greek + Iranian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.342300
    13 Bulgarian + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 3.371904
    14 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly @ 3.372509
    15 Croatian + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly @ 3.382109
    16 Greek_Thessaly + Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.387726
    17 Algerian_Jewish + Bulgarian + Bulgarian + Greek_Thessaly @ 3.395472
    18 Ashkenazi + Iranian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.397145
    19 Algerian_Jewish + Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Ukrainian @ 3.414869
    20 Assyrian + Central_Greek + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.415889

    Done.
    Its not clear what Greek from Thessaly is. Thessaly has an old Albanian settlement, from Byzantine times. I don't know if they call themselves Arvanites or no. But their presence was clear until 1900 at least. I don't know what the majority of that area is Greeks or Albanians and what is the degree of mixing of two populations. Albanians lived mainly in mountainous areas since they were in constant fear of Turks. My point is genetically when we say Greek from Thessaly it could be an Albanian, a real Greek or a mixed person. Thats why Albanians cluster as Greeks from Thessaly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Slovenes are between one and a half million and two million people today. 100% ethnic Slovenes are even less. A very small population compared to Italians (Italy around 1000 AD had about 7 million inhabitants). When the Slovenes arrived in the Eastern Alps after the 6th century AD they were also a lot less. They also remained isolated from other Slavic migrations in the Balkans. Even if they wanted to, they could not have influenced Italians too much genetically.

    How many were the Slovenes arrived between the 6th and 9th century AD? Between 20 thousand and 50 thousand? Not many more. I don't even think that Slovenes pushed all the natives out. Many were assimilated.
    I never said Slovenes impacted Italy's genetics. I was saying that Italians and Slovenes are different because Italians are native and Slovenes are Slavic newcommers. Check the contrast on their Y DNA also. Yes (Slovenes) they have absorbed indigenous populace too but they are not largely Illyro-Italic as their region used to be in antiquity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    Its not clear what Greek from Thessaly is. Thessaly has an old Albanian settlement, from Byzantine times. I don't know if they call themselves Arvanites or no. But their presence was clear until 1900 at least. I don't know what the majority of that area is Greeks or Albanians and what is the degree of mixing of two populations. Albanians lived mainly in mountainous areas since they were in constant fear of Turks. My point is genetically when we say Greek from Thessaly it could be an Albanian, a real Greek or a mixed person. Thats why Albanians cluster as Greeks from Thessaly.
    In Thessaly, as well as in Epirus and Western Macedonia, there have also always been a lot of Vlachs. I would say that at least mainland Greeks are in general a mix of Greeks (Romioi), Vlachs, Arvanites and Slavs (to a lesser extent).

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    Why you are mixing modern populations,
    with old ones?

    hen we say forexample Central Thessaly is mark that developed in Thessaly,

    Not a mark developed in Albania and moved to Thessaly.

    when we say Dinaric is a mark developed in dinaric alps,
    not in Crete and moved in Dinaric alps,

    etc
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Slovenes are between one and a half million and two million people today. 100% ethnic Slovenes are even less. A very small population compared to Italians (Italy around 1000 AD had about 7 million inhabitants). When the Slovenes arrived in the Eastern Alps after the 6th century AD they were also a lot less. They also remained isolated from other Slavic migrations in the Balkans. Even if they wanted to, they could not have influenced Italians too much genetically.

    How many were the Slovenes arrived between the 6th and 9th century AD? Between 20 thousand and 50 thousand? Not many more. I don't even think that Slovenes pushed all the natives out. Many were assimilated.
    The Slovenes originally occupied much larger territory than today, though.

    This map shows the original Slovene territory in the Early Middle Ages:

    http://www.gis.si/egw/ZSS_T04_P02/index.html

    http://www.gis.si/egw/ZSS_T04_P02/img/karta4.jpg



    ^^^
    Actually I think that they extended more to the west also in Italy.

    The peak of Slavic westward territorial expansion was in the 800s.

    At that time the western boundary of areas with majority Slavic population was as follows: starting from the north-west, westernmost ethnically Slavic areas included: the Fehrman island, Wagrien region (Wagria) in what is today Holstein - including settlement Wendtorf in Kreis Plön (54°25′N 10°0′E) - then the outskirts of Hamburg, Lauenburg region, Lüneburger Heide, Wolfsburg region, Magdeburg region. South of Magdeburg the boundary of ethnic Slavic territory can be drawn as a meridional line extending up to Erfurt and the eastern part of the Thüringer Wald - in parts of Thuringia located to the west of the Saale River, the following area was ethnically Slavic during the 9th century: lands to the east of the line extending from the southern outskirts of Magdeburg, through the area of Erfurt, and up to the Thüringer Wald. From the Thüringer Wald the boundary was a line extending in south-western direction up to the River Main and the outskirts of Bamberg. From Bamberg the 9th century Slavic-Germanic ethnic boundary sharply turned towards Austrian Linz, and then once again turned meridionally, extending up to the Alpine city of Liezen at the River Enns. In the Alps groups of Slavs migrated through mountain valleys up to East Tirol and the Upper Drava River. Slavs settled in north-western and south-eastern parts of East Tyrol, and in Italy they reached up to Julian Alps north-west of Udine and also settled in what is now the Provincia di Gorizia up to the coast of the Marano Lagoon. The city of Matrei in Osttirol (47°0′N 12°32′E) was called Windisch [= Slavic] Matrei as late as 1335.

    First incursions of Slavs into Italy were reported already in the 590s.

    Leszek Podhorodecki, "History of Ukraine", gives the following chronology for Slavic expansion:

    "(...) At the turns of the 5th and the 6th centuries the Slavs, living until that time at the Dniester River, attacked the borders of the Byzantine Empire. The whole reign of Justin (518-527) and that of Justinian (527-557) were filled with combats against the Slavs pushing south across the Danube. They were especially active in period 545-557, because at that time they started to settle en masse in conquered territories [south of the Danube]. Only the incursion of the Avars into the Black Sea steppe and the lands along the Danube [years 561 - 569], hampered - for some time - the Slavic migration. After victorious wars against some of Slavic tribes, the Avars penetrated into the Pannonian Basin, and established their realm there. (...)"

    The Avars showed up in the Pontic steppe around 560 and advanced westward to Pannonia along the northern bank of the Danube. Avar influence was not that unequivocally negative for Slavic settlement in the Balkans, though. Their initial attack against Slavs living north of the Danube (in Romania and southern Moldova) in the 560s drove some further Slavs - this time as refugees - south of the Danube, into the Balkans. Later there was a time when Avars were Byzantine allies against the Slavs (that was the case in years 584 - 585, for example), but in the end the Avars turned against the Byzantines and started to facilitate Slavic settlement. We can speak about two or three types of Slavic immigrants in the Balkans - those from tribes acting on their own, and those from tribes which accepted overlordship of the Avars, or signed alliances with them. The Avars also pushed Germanic tribes from Pannonia into Italy, when they defeated the Gepids (568) and forced the Langobards to emigrate (569). The disruption of the Gepids and the expulsion of the Langobards made a vacuum that West Slavs filled, migrating from Moravia into what is now Austria-Hungary-Slovenia.

    Slavs were raiding Roman lands from their homeland north of the Danube river in what is now southern Romania since around the 490s, but they started to settle south of the Danube only since around 545. First settlements from ca. 545 - 550 were established in eastern Bosnia, Lower and Upper Moesia, and Little Scythia - including the regions of Ulmetum and Adina. Around the same time (ca. 550) first Slavic immigrants reached what is now Slovenia (they could be the same tribe which had besieged Durazzo in 547). Second wave of Slavs came to Slovenia after 568 (this time from the north, most probably from Moravia). According to John of Ephesus and Menander Protector another major wave of Slavs (Menander wrote that their strength was 100,000 but he didn't specify whether that included only warriors or all people) broke into Thrace and Thessaly as far as the Great Walls of Constantinople in period 577 - 580, and settled in vast areas. Sources mention that those Slavs were led by a war chief named Ardagast or Radogost (Ардагаст), and a king named Musokios. They could also reach as far as Greece "proper" already by ca. 580, when they sacked Athens, for which there is archaeological evidence (other sources indicate that Slavs started to settle in Attica and the Peloponnese only later, around 610).

    In year 599 Pope Gregory I in a letter to Exarch of Italy wrote that Slavs had already seized most of Istria, and were penetrating (invading, raiding, etc.) into the Italian Peninsula. After mentioned invasions by Slavs, in 584 AD Byzantine Emperor Maurice sent emissaries to the Khagan of the Avars - Bayan I -, asking him for help against Slavs. The Avars initially worked as Byzantine allies against the Slavs. In 584 Ardagast with his 100,000 Slavs besieged Constantinople but was repulsed by combined Byzantine-Avar forces, and later lost two more battles against Byzantine-Avar forces led by Comentiolus (the battle of Erginia River and the battle of Ansinon, near Hadrianopole). Comentiolus also pushed Slavic settlers out of the region of Astica. In 585 the Byzantines and the Avars decided to attack the original Slavic lands across the Danube - forces under command of Priscus and Gentzon crossed the river at Dorostolon (Silistra) and surprise-attacked the Slavs in their native territory (as most of their forces had long been campaigning in the Balkans). They attacked at midnight and defeated the Slavs, but Ardagast eluded the attackers and escaped.

    Later alliances switched - the Avars abandoned their Byzantine allies and instead started to cooperate with the Slavs, having subordinated some of their tribes (most notably one branch of the Dudlebes), and having signed alliances with other tribes.

    Other early leaders of the Slavic tribes described by Byzantine, Italian and other sources - apart from Ardagast - include figures such as Musokios, Dabragezas, Usigard, Swarunas, Mezamir, Idarizos, Kelagastos, Chatzon, Waltunc, Kocel, Sandamir, Daurentios, etc.

    These early names are often cited by linguists as a proof that Late Common Slavic was still one, mutually intelligible language at that time. 6th century Common Slavic was quite different from Slavic languages in later centuries. It preceded the ard-rad shift in Slavic.

    For example at that time Slavs were still pronouncing [o] as short [a] - hence in modern Romanian language the word for grave is magura, and in modern Finnic languages the word for window is akkuna - both being loanwords from Late Common Slavic.

    The word gard (town, stronghold) later changed into gord; then into grod in West Slavic*, grad in South Slavic, and gorod in East Slavic), the ard-rad shift had not yet taken place (hence there was Ardagast instead of the later form Radogost), etc.

    *Except for Polabian and Pomeranian which retained the older gard form.

    There were also Slavic pirates who raided the entire eastern coast of Italy, and even established some settlements along the coast. But I don't know what happened to those strongholds later (maybe they were driven out by anti-pirate expeditions or maybe assimilated).

    "Historia Langobardorum" by Paul the Deacon describes Slavic raids into Italy and Langobard-Slavic wars.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Hello Tomenable,
    Accidentally I just posted a question indirectly concerning the Slovenians of the early middle ages in a new thread. I would like to ask you if there is a connection between them and the Vajunites? Are they the same people? Maybe you can take a look at my new thread too, if you would like. Thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Govan View Post
    Wait. Everybody has their opinion on this. Some say Poles , some say Ukrainians , some say Bielorussian. Stop tricking us , give the reasons why and edvidence spasiba moj brat
    It depends on where do you see the Proto-Slavic homeland.

    We can reasonably assume that people who live in the closest proximity to the original Slavic homeland should be the most genetically similar to Proto-Slavs, unless the area in question has been affected by significant migrations during the last centuries.

    The most widely accepted theory as of now, is that the Proto-Slavic homeland was somewhere in Ukraine or Moldova.

    The South Belarusian theory (Pripyat Marshes theory) has been debunked because the Marshes were uninhabited according to archaeologists. Perhaps they were under Slavic control, but the bulk of Slavic population had to live outside of that area.

    Central and North Belarus was occupied by Balts according to most scholars - so areas north of Pripyat have to be excluded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Why you are mixing modern populations,
    with old ones?

    hen we say forexample Central Thessaly is mark that developed in Thessaly,

    Not a mark developed in Albania and moved to Thessaly.

    when we say Dinaric is a mark developed in dinaric alps,
    not in Crete and moved in Dinaric alps,

    etc
    Albanians should not be close to Thessaly. Normally a Greek should be close to Greek from Thessaly. The anomaly can be only explained with Albanian presence there from early Byzantine emigrations. As for Vlahs they show to certain degree their Romanian roots. They have high haplogroup I .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandra_K View Post
    In Thessaly, as well as in Epirus and Western Macedonia, there have also always been a lot of Vlachs. I would say that at least mainland Greeks are in general a mix of Greeks (Romioi), Vlachs, Arvanites and Slavs (to a lesser extent).
    Anonymi Descriptio Europae orientalis. Imperium Constantinopolitanum, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Ruthenia, Ungaria, Polonia, Bohemia. Anno MCCCVIII exarata. Cracoviae, 1916: As per the anonymous traveler of Eastern Europe from the XIV century, it is stated that Vlachs (whom the author calls "Blasi"), are a numerous people living between Macedonia, Achaia and Salonika.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The most characteristic locations for the Greek Vlachs are the areas on and around the Pindus Mountains, which are shared between Epirus, Thessaly and Macedonia. Of course there were further migrations but their real center has always been the Pindus area.
    My family has partly Vlach origins from Thessaly (area of Trikala) and also partly Vlach origins from Epirus (and before that probably from Albania, the area of Kolonia: Arvanitovlachi).
    But definitely Epirus, Thessaly and Macedonia are the main regions for the Greek Vlachs because of the Pindus Mountains.

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