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Thread: Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA and Y-DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    Please, spare me your cheap and sad sarcasm, it's really rude and out of topic when you talk about an early medieval culture and link it unlogically to a prehystoric culture to denigrate other people's thoughts.
    Sorry for the uneasyness, maybe you might develop a deeper thinking to understand the irony. Take it easy.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Observations on anthropological research concerning the
    period of Hungarian conquest and the Arpadian age


    http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-95.pdf


    The work of Tibor Tóth extended the range of investigations
    (Tóth 1958, 1965, 1973). In his opinion the conquering
    Hungarians came to a relatively similar morphological
    environment in the central Danubian Basin. Later on their
    Mongolid character faded. Their ethnogenesis had already
    taken place in the North-Caspian region. In 1992, he reworded
    his earlier observations. As opposed to former opinions, he
    thought that the elements of the Mongolid great-race had
    been as completely insignificant in the ethnic composition
    of the conquering Hungarians as in that of the Avar Khaganat,
    and also in other, “historic populations of the 2nd millennium
    AD”. He interpreted the Hungarian conquest as the last
    migration wave of the Europid Pontic race proceeding from
    the North Caspian region into the Central Danubian region.
    Concerning Onogur (I had red it in Wiki) it seems almost evident it's the basis of their exonym (h)Ungarian - From what I red, the Magyars elites had incorporated a great proportion of turkic speaking tribes themselves already well mixed with Central Asia I-E speaking tribes ('europoids' hyper-dominant) ; seemingly Avars in Hungaru cimeteries elites were mixed, but had kept more diverse 'east-asian' types ('sinid', 'mongolid' and siberian 'tungid' less mongoloid types);

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    borderline: 'bulgar' gave the french word "bougre" (pejorative qualificative for peopl= 'ned', 'hooligan', like "vandal" or "apache" before being softened in meaning: "un bon bougre") - 'hungarian' gave french "hongre" concerning castrated stallions... for the fun.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    borderline: 'bulgar' gave the french word "bougre" (pejorative qualificative for peopl= 'ned', 'hooligan', like "vandal" or "apache" before being softened in meaning: "un bon bougre") - 'hungarian' gave french "hongre" concerning castrated stallions... for the fun.
    French bougre also English bugger come from the ethnic term Bulgarian catching derogatory "heretic" due to Bogomils,see Cathars in France.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Concerning Onogur (I had red it in Wiki) it seems almost evident it's the basis of their exonym (h)Ungarian - From what I red, the Magyars elites had incorporated a great proportion of turkic speaking tribes themselves already well mixed with Central Asia I-E speaking tribes ('europoids' hyper-dominant) ; seemingly Avars in Hungaru cimeteries elites were mixed, but had kept more diverse 'east-asian' types ('sinid', 'mongolid' and siberian 'tungid' less mongoloid types);
    Onogur was name of Bulgars also old great Bulgaria in today Ukraine and Russia centered in Phanagoria was known as Patria Onoguria,many historians including emperor Constantine said that's how Bulgars called themselves earlier,how they become associated with or "formed" alliance and becomed Bulgarians is unclear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Concerning Onogur (I had red it in Wiki) it seems almost evident it's the basis of their exonym (h)Ungarian - From what I red, the Magyars elites had incorporated a great proportion of turkic speaking tribes themselves already well mixed with Central Asia I-E speaking tribes ('europoids' hyper-dominant) ; seemingly Avars in Hungaru cimeteries elites were mixed, but had kept more diverse 'east-asian' types ('sinid', 'mongolid' and siberian 'tungid' less mongoloid
    - the Avars were first to bring Spangelhem style helmets into Europe, which was used by all Germanic tribes

    6c Avar helmet




    1c ancient korean helmet

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There had been so much mixing by this time that this shouldn't come a huge surprise.

    Siberians had been mixing with Iranians (certainly Tocharians too) since we moved into the Iron age. And this was a group that was living after the Hunnic migrations, which itself consisted of not only Turkics speakers, but Germans, Iranians and others.

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    The Avars were first to bring Spangelhem style helmets into Europe, which was used by all Germanic tribes

    6c Avar helmet is great

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    By the way till reading the paper as to know if the type of cemetery correspond to Magyars or locals it's not sure that such DNA was aloctone.
    The Y DNA samples can't be trusted as to be from true Magyars:

    http://www.turautak.com/cikkek/latni...ri-temeto.html

    http://hegyinyaralo.uw.hu/programok/karos.html

    I only see a kurgan in such cemetery, the other burials are not like those of the Ural Magyars.

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    http://www.zemplen.hu/turisztika/bodrogkoz_e.htm

    A cemetery dating from the time of the conquest containing significant artifacts was unearthed by archeologists in 1986, in a place called Karos within the Bodrogköz. The artifacts were that of conquerors from the historical Etelköz and it was an astounding finding indeed. Nicely decorated hilts and daggers, quivers, bows, fitted belts, splendid harnesses, gold and silver jewelry, ornaments, Italian and arabic coins, pearls, goldplated headpieces and much more were found.

    http://www.zemplen.org/en/11-hirek/4...zpont-in-karos

    At border of the village, was an excavated one of the richest ancient cemeteries. The artifacts found show that the conquering Hungarians ruling and grand prince of this region built the first center. It is important proof that the Bodrogköz was one of the conquering Hungarians first premises.

    What kurgans?

    A kurgan (Russian: курга́н) is a tumulus, a type of burial mound or barrow, heaped over a burial chamber, often of wood.[1] The Russian noun, which is already attested in Old East Slavic, is borrowed from an unidentified Turkic language,[2] compare Modern Turkish kurğan, which means "fortress". They are mounds of earth and stones raised over a grave or graves. Associated with its use in Soviet archaeology, the word is now widely used for tumuli in the context of Eastern European and Central Asian archaeology.
    The earliest kurgans date to the 4th millennium BC in the Caucasus,[3] and are associated with the Indo-Europeans.[4] Kurgans were built in the Eneolithic, Bronze, Iron, Antiquity and Middle Ages, with ancient traditions still active in Southern Siberia and Central Asia. Kurgan cultures are divided archeologically into different sub-cultures, such as Timber Grave, Pit Grave, Scythian, Sarmatian, Hunnish and Kuman-Kipchak.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan

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    berun:"The Y DNA samples can't be trusted as to be from true Magyars"
    Who are the true Magyars?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    berun:"The Y DNA samples can't be trusted as to be from true Magyars"
    Who are the true Magyars?
    Don't worry about Berun... Everything is r1b and connected with cultures of conquerors is false for him. If there were quivers and weapons, I want to know if they are found in the four males' tombs... this would be a correct way to know if they were magyars, i.e. to link material culture with genetics. Obviously, a biased person like our friend only thinks about the dna (with a lot of prejudice) and not both the dna AND the archaelogical environment.


    I also wanted to point out that, according to Maciamo's maps, r-u106 isn't so spread and common in Hungary. So is i2 of that subclade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Sorry for the uneasyness, maybe you might develop a deeper thinking to understand the irony. Take it easy.
    I'm so sorry, but it isn't a problem to develop a deeper thinking... It's a matter to be honest and not clowns. If you were serious, then you would put on the table better arguments than "it's r1b, so it is impossible"... But I know that is even impossible for your biased way of thinking that a thought different from "r1b is shit" is very far from being real.

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    [QUOTE=Brennos;493966]Don't worry about Berun... Everything is r1b and connected with cultures of conquerors is false for him. If there were quivers and weapons, I want to know if they are found in the four males' tombs... this would be a correct way to know if they were magyars, i.e. to link material culture with genetics. Obviously, a biased person like our friend only thinks about the dna (with a lot of prejudice) and not both the dna AND the archaelogical environment.
    THE CEMETERIES
    OF THE CONQUEST PERIOD


    A picture differing markedly from the other areas of the

    Carpathian Basin emerges in the Upper Tisza region. The
    cemeteries in this area have a conspicuously high number of
    male burials (accounting for up to fifty per cent of the buri-
    als) equipped with a wide array of weapons. Almost all the

    men were buried with their archery equipment; sabres and
    axes are also quite frequent. Their real wealth, however, is
    indicated by their insignia of rank: sabretaches ornamented
    with mounts or metal plaques, belt sets, sabres covered with
    silver or gold plaques, bow cases fitted with mounts and lav-

    ishly ornamented horse harness. These burials undoubtedly
    represent the graves of the highest-ranking leaders of the
    10th century Hungarians (Karos and Rakamaz; Fig. 34).



    http://www.regeszet.org.hu/images/angol/a_011.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    What kurgans?
    Just look at post #17; archaeologists have traced Magyars to the SW Urals and the culture there used to bury under kurgans / mounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    berun:"The Y DNA samples can't be trusted as to be from true Magyars"
    Who are the true Magyars?
    By the time we speak those speaking Hungarian with SW Ural origins.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    Don't worry about Berun... Everything is r1b and connected with cultures of conquerors is false for him. If there were quivers and weapons, I want to know if they are found in the four males' tombs... this would be a correct way to know if they were magyars, i.e. to link material culture with genetics. Obviously, a biased person like our friend only thinks about the dna (with a lot of prejudice) and not both the dna AND the archaelogical environment.
    I don't know from where you get that I reject R1b as conquerors; just for amusement, can you explain?

    Whichever the biased ideas I have, even if pissing off all archaeological data you are failing the most, why? because you just don't take into account History, and History tells us that Magyars came from SW Urals THROUGH "Ukrainan" lands in a process of two centuries, so R1b-U106 of the "Ukrainan" Gothi could be included into the Magyar advance just as they included Turkik tribes in their advance; also a lot of Germanic tribes roamed before all it in the Pannonian plains (Heruli, Lombardi, etc.) and who can say that they didn't left a genetic trace there? you? maybe they didn't carried weapons just thinking that with their brutish faces and painful shouts the enemy would flee?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    I'm so sorry, but it isn't a problem to develop a deeper thinking... It's a matter to be honest and not clowns. If you were serious, then you would put on the table better arguments than "it's r1b, so it is impossible"... But I know that is even impossible for your biased way of thinking that a thought different from "r1b is shit" is very far from being real.
    Well, before to develop deeper thinking you might try to develop reading-the-post-before-post-nonsense.

    My biased way of thinking is based on an occult agenda titled "Occam's Razor", so even if Vikings (U106) were doing a lot of things in Russia by then, so that could arrive U106 to SW Urals, to me is more easy to cut all it simply thinking that such U106 is local or came by "Ukrainan" Gothi that addered the Magyar wave of advance.

    Maybe the problem is that I read more than you about history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    By the time we speak those speaking Hungarian with SW Ural origins.
    The Finno-Ugrian theory is based on the hypothetical family-tree model and chronology of the Indo-European ethno-linguistic group's evolution (17). The family-tree model assumes that the members of a defined ethno-linguistic group originated from a common ancestral people which spoke a common ancestral language and lived in a common ancestral homeland from which various groups migrated to form the distinct branches of an ethno-linguistic family. Thus, the Finno-Ugrian theory states that the Finno-Ugrian group separated from the ancestral Uralic group between 5000 and 4000 BC; between 3000 and 2000 BC the Finnic and Ugrian branches separated, and around 1000 BC the "proto-Hungarians" separated from the "Ob-Ugrians" and migrated Westward (18). However, the validity of this monolithic family-tree model has been increasingly questioned by several researchers, including some Indo-European scholars (19).
    http://www.hunmagyar.org/tor/controve.htm

    http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/hunspir/hsp05.htm

    http://assets.cambridge.org/97805216...21661423ws.pdf

    http://www.regeszet.org.hu/images/angol/a_011.pdf

    http://www.chicagohungarians.com/radics/Origin1.htm


    As you can see there is lots of theories and stereotyps about the origins of Hungarians.Make your choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    However, the validity of this monolithic family-tree model has been increasingly questioned by several researchers, including some Indo-European scholars (19).

    http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/hunspir/hsp05.htm

    http://assets.cambridge.org/97805216...21661423ws.pdf

    http://www.regeszet.org.hu/images/angol/a_011.pdf

    http://www.chicagohungarians.com/radics/Origin1.htm


    As you can see there is lots of theories and stereotyps about the origins of Hungarians.Make your choice.
    The first link that you give us to read states:

    Magyar - can greatly facilitate the deciphering of Sumerian writings. Cunei form writing was used by the Hungarians long before their arrival in the Carpathian Basin, and afterwards as well.
    To discuss history and ancient genetics it's OK to me, but I'm not willing to expend time with bullshit or bullshit eaters.

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    To discuss history and ancient genetics it's OK to me, but I'm not willing to expend time with bullshit or bullshit eaters.

    Perfect choice,berun.Same here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I don't know from where you get that I reject R1b as conquerors; just for amusement, can you explain?

    Whichever the biased ideas I have, even if pissing off all archaeological data you are failing the most, why? because you just don't take into account History, and History tells us that Magyars came from SW Urals THROUGH "Ukrainan" lands in a process of two centuries, so R1b-U106 of the "Ukrainan" Gothi could be included into the Magyar advance just as they included Turkik tribes in their advance; also a lot of Germanic tribes roamed before all it in the Pannonian plains (Heruli, Lombardi, etc.) and who can say that they didn't left a genetic trace there? you? maybe they didn't carried weapons just thinking that with their brutish faces and painful shouts the enemy would flee?
    You seem very sure to state that Gothi were R-U106... were are the sources? Even in the Urals there are traces of R-U106... not only in Ukraine. As the study states, all the individuals were different autosomally from modern Hungarians... so also those I2 and R-U106 guys.

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    Gentlemen, no more foul language, and enough with the insults on this thread. Make your points in a civil manner. Am I clear?


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    You seem very sure to state that Gothi were R-U106... were are the sources? Even in the Urals there are traces of R-U106... not only in Ukraine. As the study states, all the individuals were different autosomally from modern Hungarians... so also those I2 and R-U106 guys.
    Dr. McDonalds analysis

    U106 men in eastern Europe tend to be dominated by a small number of haplogroups. Most notably, these are Z326 (circa 1300 BC, peak frequency in Germany) and FGC8590 (circa 300 BC, peak frequency in the Baltic States). Z326 is common in south eastern Europe; FGC8590 is common in north eastern Europe. They probably represent the result of two different migrations. The timing and exact origin of the Z326 migration is unclear, but the timing of the FGC8590 migration seems tied to its origin, so around 2000 years ago. I have previously associated it with the movement of the Gothic peoples into this region. In modern north-eastern Hungarian populations, it is likely that these two sub-clades make up around 1/3 of the U106 population. Some of the clades in the other 2/3 are likely to be tied to the same two migrations.

    U106 is very rare in the Caspian-Pontic steppe, as the authors note. It's therefore likely that these two individuals represent native European populations, again as the authors note. However, it is possible that some of the Hun invaders represented the descendants of the original Gothic tribes that populated the Black Sea coasts in the 3rd century AD. Further resolution beyond S21 would be interesting, however it is likely that there would be no call on these results, and little possibility of extraction from the remaining samples. It is a shame they didn't manage to fully sequence them.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    You seem very sure to state that Gothi were R-U106... were are the sources? Even in the Urals there are traces of R-U106... not only in Ukraine. As the study states, all the individuals were different autosomally from modern Hungarians... so also those I2 and R-U106 guys.
    Thes sources are the logics: RISE98, the first U106 known, was found in Sweden (the country were the Gothi came out, from actual Gothaland), there is no ancient DNA from the diverse samples taken in European Russia and Hungary of the Bronce Age / Iron Age / Middle Ages till 900 AD providing U106, and U106 is a typical clade of the Germanic peoples, so that one in five is U106 in Sweden... so simple logics are quite practical in this case.

    For the differences in autosomals... it even makes more strong the case that such "Magyars" were a composite tribe by the time that they reached the Pannonian plain. In fact what pushed them westwards would have pushed also other steppe tribes with them, so that the next step would be to make a "joint venture".

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