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Thread: Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA and Y-DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Gentlemen, no more foul language, and enough with the insults on this thread. Make your points in a civil manner. Am I clear?
    Of course...

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Thes sources are the logics: RISE98, the first U106 known, was found in Sweden (the country were the Gothi came out, from actual Gothaland), there is no ancient DNA from the diverse samples taken in European Russia and Hungary of the Bronce Age / Iron Age / Middle Ages till 900 AD providing U106, and U106 is a typical clade of the Germanic peoples, so that one in five is U106 in Sweden... so simple logics are quite practical in this case.

    For the differences in autosomals... it even makes more strong the case that such "Magyars" were a composite tribe by the time that they reached the Pannonian plain. In fact what pushed them westwards would have pushed also other steppe tribes with them, so that the next step would be to make a "joint venture".
    Logic isn't a reliable source, and even your Occam Razor isn't. For example: a certain surname was born in place A and then some people bearing that surname moved in places B and C. In the mean time, people in place A haven't less male heirs and the surname disappear. Instead, people in places B and C are flourishing and some other people bearing that surname move in places D and E. In two centuries we will have that surname only in place E. This is the history of many surnames in my area, even noble ones and mostly peasant ones. Then, put a haplogroup instead of the surname and, obviously, forget the documents that can help us to build a surname history. Without any document, how can you say with a certain degree of certainty that an haplogroup, like a surname, existing in a place is obviously native of that region?

    Then, I agree with you that Magyars were a composite tribe, but I can't discard the possibility that those I2 and R-U106 could come from the Urals too, given also the fact that we haven't got Gothic Y-DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Dr. McDonalds analysis

    U106 men in eastern Europe tend to be dominated by a small number of haplogroups. Most notably, these are Z326 (circa 1300 BC, peak frequency in Germany) and FGC8590 (circa 300 BC, peak frequency in the Baltic States). Z326 is common in south eastern Europe; FGC8590 is common in north eastern Europe. They probably represent the result of two different migrations. The timing and exact origin of the Z326 migration is unclear, but the timing of the FGC8590 migration seems tied to its origin, so around 2000 years ago. I have previously associated it with the movement of the Gothic peoples into this region. In modern north-eastern Hungarian populations, it is likely that these two sub-clades make up around 1/3 of the U106 population. Some of the clades in the other 2/3 are likely to be tied to the same two migrations.

    U106 is very rare in the Caspian-Pontic steppe, as the authors note. It's therefore likely that these two individuals represent native European populations, again as the authors note. However, it is possible that some of the Hun invaders represented the descendants of the original Gothic tribes that populated the Black Sea coasts in the 3rd century AD. Further resolution beyond S21 would be interesting, however it is likely that there would be no call on these results, and little possibility of extraction from the remaining samples. It is a shame they didn't manage to fully sequence them.
    Really impressive, but this is an analysis on modern samples, or not? If yes, so I can't take it for sure... only ancient DNA can give a full answer. Obviously, that is the point I wanted to underline, is that Magyar lite could integrate only other people's lite... so those I2 and R-U106 were among the lite. Also Lombards assimilated many tribes in their migrations and their lite was also formed by italics when they arrived in Italy... see that study on the Partecipanze in San Giovanni in Persiceto by Boattini.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    Logic isn't a reliable source, and even your Occam Razor isn't. For example: a certain surname was born in place A and then some people bearing that surname moved in places B and C. In the mean time, people in place A haven't less male heirs and the surname disappear. Instead, people in places B and C are flourishing and some other people bearing that surname move in places D and E. In two centuries we will have that surname only in place E. This is the history of many surnames in my area, even noble ones and mostly peasant ones. Then, put a haplogroup instead of the surname and, obviously, forget the documents that can help us to build a surname history. Without any document, how can you say with a certain degree of certainty that an haplogroup, like a surname, existing in a place is obviously native of that region?

    Then, I agree with you that Magyars were a composite tribe, but I can't discard the possibility that those I2 and R-U106 could come from the Urals too, given also the fact that we haven't got Gothic Y-DNA.
    It will be quite poetical, but it's not the same how a fallen leaf goes on with the wind as goes a fallen tree...

    I'm not denying that such U106 came from Urals, but it is much less provable with actual data, being autochtone or Gothic DNA is the best explanation.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    Gothic is best explained for R1b-U106, Slavic best explained for the I2-M423. I'm not sure why people argue the most obvious answer. There is no evidence these men arrived first generation from south Siberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Gothic is best explained for R1b-U106, Slavic best explained for the I2-M423. I'm not sure why people argue the most obvious answer. There is no evidence these men arrived first generation from south Siberia.
    Extremly logical argument.Can you prove that?
    The most obvious answer is:NO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Extremly logical argument.Can you prove that?
    The most obvious answer is:NO.
    Thanks, Gyms... I couldn't express myself with better words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Gothic is best explained for R1b-U106, Slavic best explained for the I2-M423. I'm not sure why people argue the most obvious answer. There is no evidence these men arrived first generation from south Siberia.
    They said that Yamnaya was best explained with a possible R1a... then R1b appeared and many people, who in their stubborn behaviour would have put their hands on fire like Mutius Scaevola in confirming that R1a would have appeared in Yamna culture, were (and some, I think, are) simply crying like babies without their favourite toy.

    The evidence they were first generation Hugarians is inside the archaelogical environment: they were buried in a first generation graveyard. I don't know... is it so difficult to read and understand the paper? I don't find so strange that R-U106 and I-M423 were found among first Hungarians... we have those haplogroups in the Urals too. Obviously, a deeper analysis of the samples would help us to determine the exact subclade and tye it to a geographical area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    They said that Yamnaya was best explained with a possible R1a... then R1b appeared and many people, who in their stubborn behaviour would have put their hands on fire like Mutius Scaevola in confirming that R1a would have appeared in Yamna culture, were (and some, I think, are) simply crying like babies without their favourite toy.

    The evidence they were first generation Hugarians is inside the archaelogical environment: they were buried in a first generation graveyard. I don't know... is it so difficult to read and understand the paper? I don't find so strange that R-U106 and I-M423 were found among first Hungarians... we have those haplogroups in the Urals too. Obviously, a deeper analysis of the samples would help us to determine the exact subclade and tye it to a geographical area.
    We have only aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture and for a while we have a lot of reasons to belive that the western part of Yamnaya culture was populated predominantly by R1a folks. So it would be guys like you who would cry like babies when we get results of aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture.

    Authentic Hungarians surely were not bearers of R-U106 and I-M423 subclades. Those R-U106 and I-M423 guys were just local folks subdued by their Hungarian masters. I guess it's pretty much obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    We have only aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture and for a while we have a lot of reasons to belive that the western part of Yamnaya culture was populated predominantly by R1a folks. So it would be guys like you who would cry like babies when we get results of aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture.

    Authentic Hungarians surely were not bearers of R-U106 and I-M423 subclades. Those R-U106 and I-M423 guys were just local folks subdued by their Hungarian masters. I guess it's pretty much obvious.
    Lot's of speculations to believe that the western part of Yamnaya Culture was populated by western clades of R1b. Let's wait and see.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    We have only aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture and for a while we have a lot of reasons to belive that the western part of Yamnaya culture was populated predominantly by R1a folks. So it would be guys like you who would cry like babies when we get results of aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture.

    Authentic Hungarians surely were not bearers of R-U106 and I-M423 subclades. Those R-U106 and I-M423 guys were just local folks subdued by their Hungarian masters. I guess it's pretty much obvious.
    "Authentic Hungarians..." ???
    What are you talkig about? Who are the authentic Germans and Russians?This is about genetics,please
    stop any manifestations of chauvinism and xenophobia!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    We have only aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture and for a while we have a lot of reasons to belive that the western part of Yamnaya culture was populated predominantly by R1a folks. So it would be guys like you who would cry like babies when we get results of aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture.

    Authentic Hungarians surely were not bearers of R-U106 and I-M423 subclades. Those R-U106 and I-M423 guys were just local folks subdued by their Hungarian masters. I guess it's pretty much obvious.
    And have you got a crystal sphere to foresee the results? Wrong attack, my dear and offensive friend: I'm neither R1a nor R1b, so I don't give a cent to those haplogroups history. But I see that there are people here that put all their expectations on their forgotten past, as if they have a really terrible present and their reason of life is to state: "I'm R1a or R1b... And I descend from IE, so I'm superior to everyone here".

    Your last words ("those r-u106 and i-m423 guys were just local folks subdued by their hungarian masters") speak for themselves in defining the kind of person you are in dealing with genetics. And, of course, the kind of grave goods in those r-u106 and i-m424 graves also speak for itself: how locals subdued to hungarian masters got hungarian burial type and ethnic goods? A first generation graveyard has first generation corpses and their ethnic affiliation, especially the males, bearers of arms, must be clear... Yes, of course, clear to unbiased people.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I am just glad they found a couple more ancient (well not particularly ancient - more early to high middle ages) dna positive for U106! It's too bad they were not able to test for more resolution... I hope every study in the future uses the petrous bone of the inner ear (if it's available - I suppose that's the issue) for testing like they did for the Driffield Terrace Roman era Skeletons. I would have liked to know their subgrouping. Speaking of those Driffield guys - 3drif-16 (not the outlier from the east) and 6drif-3 match each other on U106 - Z381 - Z156 - Z304/305/306/307 and both have autosomal connections to the Baltic (Lithuania in the graphic - 6drif-3's 3rd closest pop behind Irish and Welsh is Lithuanian and 3drif-16's 2nd pop is Lithuanian I believe along with Scottish and Welsh). So it would "appear" (how much can we read into that - is it picking up old admixture like the POBI could tease out of many of the areas of the Isles?) that they may have come from the Baltic? I personally match both to Z304-307 - then match 6drif-3 further with these SNPs: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z304/306-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817. 3drif-16 is positive for DF96 - which is the brother/sister clade of DF98 (6drif-3 was positive for DF98) and probably L1 under that. The interesting thing is that Dr. Iain McDonald has dated S4004 and L1 to around the same time (of course there is a couple hundred years of give or take) so are they from the same tribe or tribes? Seems likely.

    That made me consider the fact that while DF98 (that's House of Wettin - they are another subgroup brother clade to S1911) currently clusters along the Upper Rhine in modern samples... these early Roman era samples show some connection to the East. I suppose I'm not that surprised that some U106 showed up in NE Hungary around the late 800s into the 900s... for me it just makes it all the more interesting that it was found there in a cool cemetery with weapons etc.

    Besides I like reading the discussions .

    Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    Your last words ("those r-u106 and i-m423 guys were just local folks subdued by their hungarian masters") speak for themselves in defining the kind of person you are in dealing with genetics. And, of course, the kind of grave goods in those r-u106 and i-m424 graves also speak for itself: how locals subdued to hungarian masters got hungarian burial type and ethnic goods? A first generation graveyard has first generation corpses and their ethnic affiliation, especially the males, bearers of arms, must be clear... Yes, of course, clear to unbiased people.
    I think that on the contrary it is the people who like to imagine every conflict in prehistory & ancient times as a sort of proto-race-war who are committing a serious error. We know many examples of warlike tribes from central-eastern Eurasia who were quite willing to integrate foreign men into their tribal structures. Mostly everyone knows that the Mongols had no qualms in this regard. The Turks, even after they had adopted Islam and founded a settled empire, promoted meritorious men from de facto subdued populations in the Caucasus and the Balkans at the expense of their 'kin' to the point that it became a problem of internal politics & source of instability.

    The actual question should be why the status symbols & weaponry typical of the Hungarians wouldn't have been inherited across 'racial' barriers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I think that on the contrary it is the people who like to imagine every conflict in prehistory & ancient times as a sort of proto-race-war who are committing a serious error. We know many examples of warlike tribes from central-eastern Eurasia who were quite willing to integrate foreign men into their tribal structures. Mostly everyone knows that the Mongols had no qualms in this regard. The Turks, even after they had adopted Islam and founded a settled empire, promoted meritorious men from de facto subdued populations in the Caucasus and the Balkans at the expense of their 'kin' to the point that it became a problem of internal politics & source of instability.

    The actual question should be why the status symbols & weaponry typical of the Huns wouldn't have been inheritted across 'racial' barriers.
    Sure, also many poor Europeans made their way among the Turks and became very important people in the imperial institution.

    And I'm open to the possibility - and, really, reality - that those R-U106 and I2a men were germanic and slavic aristocrats who married Hungarian females with the nulla osta from their Hungarian fathers. The mixing of the lites was very widespread: in Italy the Frankish nobility was open to marriage with the older and culturally more advanced Italic aristocracy, in France the same, in the Visigothic Spain the same. The thing I wanted to point out are the words Gloomygonzales used... it seem a sort of race purity and superiority manifesto!

    The actual question, in my opinion, is why foreigners from "subdued" populations were well integrated in the upper class of conquerors and were buried with arms that were, at that period, the symbols of a man belonging to the upper class of warriors. I was suggesting that we found also R1b in mongolian aristocrats, but we don't know their subclade. So, in my opinion, we can't discard the possibility those R-U106 men (and, of course, those I2a men) were from Urals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    Sure, also many poor Europeans made their way among the Turks and became very important people in the imperial institution.

    And I'm open to the possibility - and, really, reality - that those R-U106 and I2a men were germanic and slavic aristocrats who married Hungarian females with the nulla osta from their Hungarian fathers. The mixing of the �lites was very widespread: in Italy the Frankish nobility was open to marriage with the older and culturally more advanced Italic aristocracy, in France the same, in the Visigothic Spain the same. The thing I wanted to point out are the words Gloomygonzales used... it seem a sort of race purity and superiority manifesto!

    The actual question, in my opinion, is why foreigners from "subdued" populations were well integrated in the upper class of conquerors and were buried with arms that were, at that period, the symbols of a man belonging to the upper class of warriors. I was suggesting that we found also R1b in mongolian aristocrats, but we don't know their subclade. So, in my opinion, we can't discard the possibility those R-U106 men (and, of course, those I2a men) were from Urals.
    I think one would be mistaken to talk about 'aristocracies' among those nomadic peoples. A rather fluid type of social organization would be probably have been more appropriate for their mode of subsistence. The interaction with foreigners would have been less reminiscent of the War of the Roses than the scenario you have mind, then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I think one would be mistaken to talk about 'aristocracies' among those nomadic peoples. A rather fluid type of social organization would be probably have been more appropriate for their mode of subsistence. The interaction with foreigners would have been less reminiscent of the War of the Roses than the scenario you have mind, then.
    Yes and no: aristocracy existed also among nomadic peoples. The differences between aristocracies were in the way to recognize honours. For example, the Frankish nobility and the Lombard one were tyed to family blood: in the first case also the king was elected in a dynastic way, in the second, however, the election of the king/chief was a matter of choosing among the noblest aristocrats... So there must have existed a sort of aristocracy also among nomadic peoples. Why it must have been different among hungarians? Also among Mongolians, we see that there was an aristocracy well defined by their symbols in clothes and jewels and they were nomadic.

    Then, I can trust you on the fact aristocracy was less pronounced among nomadic peoples... Germanic tribes were composed by freemen and the aristocrats were hard to be defined among those freemen. But they existed, as in all human societies.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...62006001000019

    The sample examined consists of 19 skulls with symbolic trephinations and 86 skulls without trepanations dated from the X century. Skulls were all excavated in the Great Hungarian Plain in the Carpathian Basin, which was occupied by the Hungarian conquerors at the end of the IX century. The variations of 12 cranial dimensions of the trephined skulls were investigated and compared to the skulls without trepanations after performing a discriminant analysis. The classification results evince that the variability of non-trephined skulls shows a more homogeneous and a more characteristic picture of their own group than the trephined samples, which corresponds to the notion, formed by archaeological evidence and written historical sources, of a both ethnically and socially differing population of the Hungarian conquerors. According to historical research, a part of the population was of Finno-Ugric origin, while the military leading layer of society can be brought into connection with Turkic ethnic groups. All the same, individuals dug up with rich grave furniture and supposed to belong to this upper stratum of society are primarily characterized by the custom of symbolic trephination, and, as our results demonstrate, craniologically they seem to be more heterogeneous.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungar...rpathian_Basin
    The Hungarians were organized into seven tribes that formed a confederation.[56] Constantine Porphyrogenitus mentions this number.[57] Anonymous seems to have preserved the Hungarian "Hetumoger" ("Seven Hungarians") denomination of the tribal confederation, although he writes of "seven leading persons"[58] jointly bearing this name instead of a political organization.[57]
    The Hetumoger confederation was strengthened by the arrival of the Kabars,[56] who (according to Constantine) joined the Hungarians following their unsuccessful riot against the Khazar Khaganate.[59] The Hungarians and the Kabars are mentioned in the longer version of the Annals of Salzburg,[60] which relates that the Hungarians fought around Vienna, while the Kabars fought nearby at Culmite in 881.[61] Madgearu proposes that Kavar groups were already settled in the Tisza plain within the Carpathian Basin around 881, which may have given rise to the anachronistic reference to Cumans in the Gesta Hungarorum at the time of the Hungarian conquest.[62]




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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post

    The actual question, in my opinion, is why foreigners from "subdued" populations were well integrated in the upper class of conquerors and were buried with arms that were, at that period, the symbols of a man belonging to the upper class of warriors. I was suggesting that we found also R1b in mongolian aristocrats, but we don't know their subclade. So, in my opinion, we can't discard the possibility those R-U106 men (and, of course, those I2a men) were from Urals.
    Actually, we do indirectly know the subclade of these specific "Royal" Mongols through haplotype comparisons on Ysearch. They fall into R1b-M478 or R1b-M73. While nothing is 100% certain without SNP testing, I think it's a pretty strong case due to the unusual haplotype characteristics of eastern branches of R1b-M478.

    Going back to the Khvalynsk burial (buried with dozens of copper beads), and *most likely* King Tut, for example, R1b is found heavily among elites and the warrior class. This also appears to be the case for the R1a guys as well as we see from the R1a warrior buried in the Mongol tomb, and amongst high caste Indians in Asia.

    You didn't have writing, civilization, or farming. Perhaps all you could do was fight.

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    The invading Huns would have acquired local warriors to help lead them. When riches are involved in pillaging, no doubt some men fell victim to these aspirations, perhaps even to spare loved ones. To suggest either I2-M423 or R1b-U106 originated in south Siberia is ludicrous, but it's certainly possible both M423 and U106 were picked up east of Hungary by the Hunnic invasions.

    I have a sample of 39 modern Hungarian Y haplotypes from Budapest, and the R1b rate is just over 30%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    French bougre also English bugger come from the ethnic term Bulgarian catching derogatory "heretic" due to Bogomils,see Cathars in France.

    Thanks for what seems the first "second meaning" of Bulgre>>bougre - I was too lazy to go to search in my ethomogies book for french; BTW I suppose the english word is from french, based on its form?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    The invading Huns would have acquired local warriors to help lead them. When riches are involved in pillaging, no doubt some men fell victim to these aspirations, perhaps even to spare loved ones. To suggest either I2-M423 or R1b-U106 originated in south Siberia is ludicrous, but it's certainly possible both M423 and U106 were picked up east of Hungary by the Hunnic invasions.

    I have a sample of 39 modern Hungarian Y haplotypes from Budapest, and the R1b rate is just over 30%.
    I didn't want to suggest that I2-M423 and R-U106 originated in south Siberia... I said that we can't discard the possibility some R-U106 and I-M423 men were in south Siberia at the moment Hungarians started their migration. We can't know for sure. Obviously, also for me it is better to think that R-U106 and I-M423 were picked up by Hungarians in Ukraine or somewhere in eastern Europe, but I also recognize that is is impossible to know with those analysis.

    As for those mongolian aristocrats, we hope in further analysis: they have all the symbols of aristocrats of mongol background in their burials, so we can add that the population of historical mongols was pretty diverse in uniparental markers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    - the Avars were first to bring Spangelhem style helmets into Europe, which was used by all Germanic tribes

    6c Avar helmet




    1c ancient korean helmet
    Interesting; but I'm not sure it became the "national" helmet of all Germanic tribes; perhaps only the ones which were in close contact to Asian hords, lately?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    Logic isn't a reliable source, and even your Occam Razor isn't. For example: a certain surname was born in place A and then some people bearing that surname moved in places B and C. In the mean time, people in place A haven't less male heirs and the surname disappear. Instead, people in places B and C are flourishing and some other people bearing that surname move in places D and E. In two centuries we will have that surname only in place E. This is the history of many surnames in my area, even noble ones and mostly peasant ones. Then, put a haplogroup instead of the surname and, obviously, forget the documents that can help us to build a surname history. Without any document, how can you say with a certain degree of certainty that an haplogroup, like a surname, existing in a place is obviously native of that region?

    Then, I agree with you that Magyars were a composite tribe, but I can't discard the possibility that those I2 and R-U106 could come from the Urals too, given also the fact that we haven't got Gothic Y-DNA.
    Agree for the general principle - the only difference is that surnames has been given at first almost without any familial links between the first bearers and that they "mutate" less often than haplos and that haplos different but close show links between them when 2 close surnames are not by force the result of familial proximity; BTW in some conservative regions the old common surnames keep still the "leadership" centuries after even if some of their "representatives" appear lately in other regions; what is not the case with rare surnames (see Cornish surnames); surnames can stay a very long time without alteration when Haplos (more the STR's) tend to change over time in a long chain of permutations.
    comparisons are comparisons... a bit splitting hairs I know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    It would be culturally correct that maygar people came from central asia or south siberia.

    Some scholars in the East Asia claimed that maygar people originated in Margal tribe to be called to be Jurichen(Jin) or Manchu people (Qing dynasty) also who ruled China two times. Sometime Jurichen was called " Khitan".
    Margal hairstyle was same as the Hun's.

    However, the hairstyle of Maygar was a little different.
    Maygar people shaved their head except three long braids. you can see the braids of maygar horseman also.
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvV...20long&f=false

    Their hairstyle was similar to avar, khitan, and mongol.
    I think this kind of culture came from central Asia, the heritage of american Indian, who stayed in altai.

    Maygar


    Avar


    Khitan
    [img]https://www.epicureweb.fr/images/articles/PHOTO-NATIVE-AMERICAN-BRAID.jpg[/img]

    https://www.google.ca/search?q=Mandan+Native+American+Man+With+Braids,+S potted+Bull&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0a hUKEwjujIvZwKjQAhURw2MKHZRYCQcQsAQIHA&biw=911&bih= 425

    and Yazidi man with plaited hair. Northern Iraq:
    Last edited by johen; 14-11-16 at 15:57.

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