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Thread: Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA and Y-DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Agree for the general principle - the only difference is that surnames has been given at first almost without any familial links between the first bearers and that they "mutate" less often than haplos and that haplos different but close show links between them when 2 close surnames are not by force the result of familial proximity; BTW in some conservative regions the old common surnames keep still the "leadership" centuries after even if some of their "representatives" appear lately in other regions; what is not the case with rare surnames (see Cornish surnames); surnames can stay a very long time without alteration when Haplos (more the STR's) tend to change over time in a long chain of permutations.
    comparisons are comparisons... a bit splitting hairs I know.
    Ok, obviously, I was speaking about my area, where surnames exists from the X/XI century and they are generally fixed from that period, so many families can be traced until the XII/XIII century with documents.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ws-quot/page18
    "2 haplotypes match the typical I2-M423 haplotype common among Slavic speakers. The other 2 match R1b-U106. I have a hard time believing either group inhabited southern Siberia, so I'm doubtful either really represents a conquering Hungarian from Siberia. However, it appears some of the mtDNA haplotypes are A, and B, so on the maternal side there might be some argument there."
    In fact, Eastern mtDNA is present in two ancient Hungarians from Karos-Eperjesszög with yDNA R1b and I2. There are two R1b guys and their mtDNAs are H and B, and two I2a2 guys whose mtDNAs are H and A. H seems to be CRS so it could be H2a2 which is frequent on the steppe and Volga Ural where Uralic languages probably originated. On the basis of their mtDNA, these ancient Hungarians do not look local Central Europeans.

    H2a.PNG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    In fact, Eastern mtDNA is present in two ancient Hungarians from Karos-Eperjesszög with yDNA R1b and I2. There are two R1b guys and their mtDNAs are H and B, and two I2a2 guys whose mtDNAs are H and A. H seems to be CRS so it could be H2a2 which is frequent on the steppe and Volga Ural where Uralic languages probably originated. On the basis of their mtDNA, these ancient Hungarians do not look local Central Europeans.

    H2a.PNG
    Very interesting.According to the results on the Y-DNA Haplogroup Predictor Nevgen the two I2a are I2a1b3a.But they are not relatives.Simple no.12 is Din South,simple no.17 is Din North.

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    Maybe the fathers of these R1b and I2a guys became allies of Hungarians and as a confirmation of their loyalty married their daughters. In historical times, this kind of political marriages were very frequent among ruling classes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Maybe the fathers of these R1b and I2a guys became allies of Hungarians and as a confirmation of their loyalty married their daughters. In historical times, this kind of political marriages were very frequent among ruling classes.
    The problem is that sample no.12 is commoner and sample no.17 is warrior.
    The confederation was composed from seven Magyar tribes and other three of Khavar origin (unified into a single one).


    https://scholarworks.iu.edu/journals...ew/14950/21068

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Maybe the fathers of these R1b and I2a guys became allies of Hungarians and as a confirmation of their loyalty married their daughters. In historical times, this kind of political marriages were very frequent among ruling classes.
    Autosomal testing could answer if that is the case, if recent admixture of allied tribes or that such admixture was already done in SW Urals.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    The problem is that sample no.12 is commoner and sample no.17 is warrior.
    The confederation was composed from seven Magyar tribes and other three of Khavar origin (unified into a single one).


    https://scholarworks.iu.edu/journals...ew/14950/21068
    Very interesting... As for the two R1b guys... were they both warriors? Or both commoners? Or else? If the guy with mtDna B is a warrior and the other isn't, so Kristiina's suggestion about marriage between lites (with the girls being true hungarians) can be the answer to our discussion.

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    The guy (R1b) with mtDNA B is commoner,the guy with mtDNA H is warrior.It's interesting that commoners (both with R1b and I2a) belong to Asian mtDNA and warriors to the European H.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I see that it is specifically B4c1b that was recently detected in Hungarian conquerors. B4c1b looks like coming from China and was surely not present near the Urals when Hungarian language developed. However, at some point it got out on the Eurasian steppe and is today also found in Pakistan and in Hazara.

    Instead, mtDNA A is very old in Siberia (for example A10 in Western Siberia), but A is very old and frequent in North East Asia and America in general, so without a more specific subclade information the origin of this particular A is unclear. However, I see that there was at least 1 x A10, 1 x A11 and 2 x A12 in Hungarian conquerors. If this particular A is A10, it was probably present in Western Siberia where Ugric languages originated. However, there are other possibilities as well. Haplotype A12 seems to be shared with Mansi (other Ugric group), Yakuts (Turkic speakers) and Evenks (Tungusic speakers). The third possibility is A11. In Eurasia, A11 is today found in Bashkirs and it was also present in BA Tianshan Beilu Xinjiang. However, with all probability, the origin of Hungarian A is in northern Altai/Western Siberia.

    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...5.figures-only

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    The warrior elite may have sold women/wives for alliances or some sort of deals. I can't see why else armed nomads would be trekking around Eurasia with far eastern women. U106 and M423 are indigenous west of the Urals, that's for sure. Recall that Loschbour was also M423, but he was likely related to the western UK version, but with more ancestral SNPs than modern day men. The eastern version is very young - most I2-M423 men of the Balkans descend from a man who lived only 2200 years ago. (add a small buffer, but it's still very young)

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    The guy (R1b) with mtDNA B is commoner,the guy with mtDNA H is warrior.It's interesting that commoners (both with R1b and I2a) belong to Asian mtDNA and warriors to the European H.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I see that it is specifically B4c1b that was recently detected in Hungarian conquerors. B4c1b looks like coming from China and was surely not present near the Urals when Hungarian language developed. However, at some point it got out on the Eurasian steppe and is today also found in Pakistan and in Hazara.

    Instead, mtDNA A is very old in Siberia (for example A10 in Western Siberia), but A is very old and frequent in North East Asia and America in general, so without a more specific subclade information the origin of this particular A is unclear. However, I see that there was at least 1 x A10, 1 x A11 and 2 x A12 in Hungarian conquerors. If this particular A is A10, it was probably present in Western Siberia where Ugric languages originated. However, there are other possibilities as well. Haplotype A12 seems to be shared with Mansi (other Ugric group), Yakuts (Turkic speakers) and Evenks (Tungusic speakers). The third possibility is A11. In Eurasia, A11 is today found in Bashkirs and it was also present in BA Tianshan Beilu Xinjiang. However, with all probability, the origin of Hungarian A is in northern Altai/Western Siberia.

    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...5.figures-only
    Wow, they are really a well mixed society at this point.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    The warrior elite may have sold women/wives for alliances or some sort of deals. I can't see why else armed nomads would be trekking around Eurasia with far eastern women. U106 and M423 are indigenous west of the Urals, that's for sure. Recall that Loschbour was also M423, but he was likely related to the western UK version, but with more ancestral SNPs than modern day men. The eastern version is very young - most I2-M423 men of the Balkans descend from a man who lived only 2200 years ago. (add a small buffer, but it's still very young)
    Perhaps their women were like Amazon warriors and took locals "grooms". Or their women took local slaves for help and pleasure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Perhaps their women were like Amazon warriors and took locals "grooms". Or their women took local slaves for help and pleasure?
    I think this is a real fantasy far from the reality and near sensibility... Probably, they had a conception of beauty by which they considered preferable women with certain features that didn't exist fully in asian stock. In fact, I think that also when the Hungarians started their migration, they were a pretty mixed society, with many phenotypes. Many phenotypes brought societies to develop the consciousness about what is beautiful and what is ugly. After all, I tend to consider Kristiina's thought: probably, also that H mtDNA haplogroup is from the Urals and, probably, the women found in the cemetery were Asian in appearence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I see that it is specifically B4c1b that was recently detected in Hungarian conquerors. B4c1b looks like coming from China and was surely not present near the Urals when Hungarian language developed. However, at some point it got out on the Eurasian steppe and is today also found in Pakistan and in Hazara.

    Instead, mtDNA A is very old in Siberia (for example A10 in Western Siberia), but A is very old and frequent in North East Asia and America in general, so without a more specific subclade information the origin of this particular A is unclear. However, I see that there was at least 1 x A10, 1 x A11 and 2 x A12 in Hungarian conquerors. If this particular A is A10, it was probably present in Western Siberia where Ugric languages originated. However, there are other possibilities as well. Haplotype A12 seems to be shared with Mansi (other Ugric group), Yakuts (Turkic speakers) and Evenks (Tungusic speakers). The third possibility is A11. In Eurasia, A11 is today found in Bashkirs and it was also present in BA Tianshan Beilu Xinjiang. However, with all probability, the origin of Hungarian A is in northern Altai/Western Siberia.

    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...5.figures-only
    So do you mean that magyar tribe possibly came from Nor East Asia? Some of Hungarian conquerors had Hg N1c. At that time, manchu people was called "margal"(靺鞨). the hairstyle of margal and magyar were similar.
    Former Hungary ambassador in korea said that 400 words of hungarian and korean are same now. He always said that his ancestor and ancient korean lived together in some area. looks like it was not ancient Korean, but manchu people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    I think this is a real fantasy far from the reality and near sensibility... Probably, they had a conception of beauty by which they considered preferable women with certain features that didn't exist fully in asian stock.
    Probably not. By natural selection and cultural factors they should desire the most women of their race and ethnicity. The problem is that young warriors would hamp anything they could put their hands on. Especially when far away from their community for months.


    In fact, I think that also when the Hungarians started their migration, they were a pretty mixed society, with many phenotypes.
    They truly seem to be well mixed, and possibly already came well mixed.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Probably not. By natural selection and cultural factors they should desire the most women of their race and ethnicity. The problem is that young warriors would hamp anything they could put their hands on. Especially when far away from their community for months.


    They truly seem to be well mixed, and possibly already came well mixed.
    Probably... what? A mixed society can't desire most women of their race and ethnicity, because there wasn't a race, but many. Perhaps, I can agree upon ethnicity... but only as a matter of language and culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    Probably... what? A mixed society can't desire most women of their race and ethnicity, because there wasn't a race, but many.
    That's what I said. They will desire the most women of their ethnicity and of these mixed races they are made of.

    Perhaps, I can agree upon ethnicity... but only as a matter of language and culture.
    No? I think a woman who can cook your ethnic food, make your ethnic cloths and believes in "true" gods of your ethnic religion, have much better chance of winning your heart than others. Unless, you steal a foreign woman, and bring her to your village and to teach her your superior ethnic ways and to slave for you.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 16-11-16 at 18:50.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Perhaps their women were like Amazon warriors and took locals "grooms". Or their women took local slaves for help and pleasure?
    Myths of origin, religious elements, real or virtual borders and the practice of exogamy all played a decisive role in creating social stability and an efficiently functioning order on the steppe.
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/2365834...n_tab_contents

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    No, Hungarians did not come from North East Asia but somewhere around Chelyabinsk near Kazakhstan.

    Hungarian migration.jpg

    If you are a farmer and do not move from your home area, of course, you marry a local woman who does everything in a way you are used to. However, Hungarians were not farmers but Eurasian nomads who were riding horses and did not stick to one place. They were surely more international than common farmers. They joined forces with Turks and Scythians to rule and control the trade and trading centres of the steppe from China to Eastern Europe. They were surely marrying women with roots in a very wide area. I am sure that these allied nomads changed women to strenghten their ties. That article gyms posted is surely worth reading. It is a pity that it is not free.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 16-11-16 at 14:52.

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    http://www.tti.hu/en/events/473-turk...rtenetrol.html

    These new archaeological results from Russia, Ukraine and Moldavia are, unfortunately, not generally known among the Hungarian scholars yet, though they can have decisive significance in the Hungarian prehistory research, as they do not always support the presently accepted theories about the stations and chronology of the migration of the pre-Hungarian and the Early Hungarian age. Moreover, the presently supposed way of life of the Early Hungarians (nomadic) can be questionable on the basis of the new research (including new natural history and climate history research) results, and a new approach seems more suitable to define their way of life, with some planting and nomadic or half-nomadic pastoralism.

    http://www.academia.edu/1899093/The_...garian_history












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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Sorry for interrupting, but Berun is right, R1b (and probably I2a as well) came from joined Vikings.
    The author

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    So do you mean that magyar tribe possibly came from Nor East Asia? Some of Hungarian conquerors had Hg N1c. At that time, manchu people was called "margal"(靺鞨). the hairstyle of margal and magyar were similar.
    Former Hungary ambassador in korea said that 400 words of hungarian and korean are same now. He always said that his ancestor and ancient korean lived together in some area. looks like it was not ancient Korean, but manchu people.
    the traditional views were: eurasian archaic (<<HG?) people of SW Ourals mixed later with E Ourals or N-Altay people stayed at a stage of proto-east-asian types (externally at least) before they took the westward route. Wait and see more auDNA but the DNA at their different stages would be more interesting that one of the same unique place and time if we want to discover their history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    U106 and M423 are indigenous west of the Urals, that's for sure.
    U106 is ~5000 years old which means that it most likely emerged in Yamnaya culture.

    And AFAIK Yamnaya culture covered territories located on both sides of the Urals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torokt View Post
    Sorry for interrupting, but Berun is right, R1b (and probably I2a as well) came from joined Vikings.
    The author
    Terribly interesting hypothesis.Could you please elaborate more about that?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I know it from our unpublished NGS data, which will be sent out shortly.How else could you interpret if many of the mtDNA genomes are identical or 1 nt distance from today living da nish, swedish, german, english people? Most frequent hit is danish. On the other hand the korean ambassador was just right, the asians are manchu, inner mongolian buryat. I think they are of xiongnu (hun) origin.

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