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Thread: Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA and Y-DNA

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    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/...d-women-slaves

    "How else could you interpret if many of the mtDNA genomes are identical or 1 nt distance from today living da nish, swedish, german, english people?"

    Historical sources make it clear that the “Vikings were taking, transporting, and selling slaves,” Raffield said in his talk. He estimates that slaves comprised as much as 25% of Scandinavia’s population.

    The argument that Vikings set out to capture women gets tantalizing support from recent genetic studies of living people in Iceland, which has not experienced a significant migration since the Vikings settled it more than a thousand years ago. About three-
quarters of male Icelandic settlers hailed from what is today Norway, although well over half of the women were from the British Isles, according to genetic studies of today’s Icelanders. That suggests that Viking men partnered with British women on a massive scale.

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    Abstract
    The aim of this paper is to discuss the early Migration period as a particular period of ‘short term history’ and its formative impact on the Scandinavian longue duree in the first millenium. During this particular period of time, the object world of Scandinavia demonstrates radical changes in symbolic representation, followed by long term continuity and social/mental resistance to change. It is argued that the Huns, as a historical fact, were present in Scandinavia in the early fifth century. Their impact was to generate an‘episodic transition’ that opened up a whole new set of social, religious andpolitical strategies, in Scandinavia in particular as well as in Barbarian Europein general, and gave rise to a new Germanic identity in the aftermath of the Roman Empire.
    http://www.medievalists.net/2014/07/...migration-era/


    Influences from the Huns on Scandinavian Sacrificial Customs during 300-500 AD

    Marianne Görman


    Abstract

    Votive offerings may be our main source of knowledge concerning the religion of the Iron Age before the Vikings. An important question is the connection between two kinds of sacrificial finds, i.e. horse sacrifices and burial offerings. They are contemporary and they share the same background. They can both be traced back to the Huns. This means that in all probability religious ideas occurred in southern Scandinavia during the fourth to the sixth century which were strongly influenced by the Huns, who were powerful in Central Europe at that time. The explanation of this is probably that some Scandinavians, for instance by serving as mercenaries, had come in contact with the Huns and, at least to some extent, assimilated their ways of thinking and their religious ideas.
    https://ojs.abo.fi/index.php/scripta/article/view/520

    http://www.hf.uio.no/iakh/personer/vit/lotteh/
    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...nalCode=rfol20

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    Quote Originally Posted by torokt View Post
    Sorry for interrupting, but Berun is right, R1b (and probably I2a as well) came from joined Vikings.
    The author
    Prof Harry Fokkens (1998):
    ''The northern Netherlands is part of the northern group (NW Germany and Denmark) especially of the Sögeler Kreis characterized by a number of distinctive men's graves. The Drouwen grave is the best known Dutch example.It's remarkable that the Elp culture has never been presented as the immigration of a new group of people. Because clearly this period was a time when a number of new elements made their entry while others disappeared. The disappearance of beakers, the appearance of the Sögel men's graves with the first 'swords', among other things, the fully extended burial posture, under barrows; all the factors have been reason enough in the past to conclude that the Elp culture represented an immigration of Sögel warriors."
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...t-in-NW-Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by torokt View Post
    I know it from our unpublished NGS data, which will be sent out shortly.How else could you interpret if many of the mtDNA genomes are identical or 1 nt distance from today living da nish, swedish, german, english people? Most frequent hit is danish. On the other hand the korean ambassador was just right, the asians are manchu, inner mongolian buryat. I think they are of xiongnu (hun) origin.
    But how it is possible to distinguish so between a Viking / Rus DNA from a Goth DNA if both had their origins in Sweden?

    Goths were already peopling Crimean cities by the XVI Century and the last Goth speaker died in the XX century, so it shows that not all Goths left Ukraine for the Roman Empire. In fact the Rus had as main activities piracy and commerce and such activities were / are male sided, so that females could (or many times must) be "integraded" from other peoples... in the other hand the Goths moved with their wives and children and they could have remained somewhat unadmixed in Ukraine against incoming Slavs and Bulgars, much more if we take into account that after conquering Hispania they keept Arrianism and a kind of Apartheid for two centuries (the marriages between Visigoths and Hispanoromans were forbidden, just a way to keep their cultural traits among a more extensive population). Even the Ostrogoths themselves stablished in Pannonia just before to attack Italy.
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/...d-women-slaves

    "How else could you interpret if many of the mtDNA genomes are identical or 1 nt distance from today living da nish, swedish, german, english people?"

    Historical sources make it clear that the “Vikings were taking, transporting, and selling slaves,” Raffield said in his talk. He estimates that slaves comprised as much as 25% of Scandinavia’s population.

    The argument that Vikings set out to capture women gets tantalizing support from recent genetic studies of living people in Iceland, which has not experienced a significant migration since the Vikings settled it more than a thousand years ago. About three-
quarters of male Icelandic settlers hailed from what is today Norway, although well over half of the women were from the British Isles, according to genetic studies of today’s Icelanders. That suggests that Viking men partnered with British women on a massive scale.
    OK wi are allof us making bets as always.
    But can we compare term to term the situation of raiders/adventurers like Vikings to the inside stable pop of Scandinavia?

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    "But how it is possible to distinguish so between a Viking / Rus DNA from a Goth DNA if both had their origins in Sweden?"

    Is there any data available for Viking or Goth aDNA? Which are the Viking and Goth haplogroups/haplotypes?

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    But how it is possible to distinguish so between a Viking / Rus DNA from a Goth DNA if both had their origins in Sweden?

    What you say is quite reasonable, however in case of Goth origin I would also expect close hits from Spain, France, Austria etc. where Ghots were finally assimilated. We are in the middle of analysis, but so far 2/3rd of the hits match people from Denmark, quite a few from Ireland and Sweden and a few from Germany, England, Italy. For me this rather implies relation with Vikings than with Goths. People with german haplotypes are mainly males, only few female or kids. In spite of the above reasoning of gyms, Viking women were also involved in establishing settlements, even in Iceland many of them were not captives from the British Isles but were brought from home. Role of women are discussed at several places (links were not allowed to attach) after a paper of Shane McLeod: Warriors and women: the sex ratio of Norse migrants to eastern England up to 900.

    Finally the Rus territories overlapped those of the Hungarians before conquest in a large extent. Hungarians were reported to have gone through Kiev peacefully. Stephan the first Christian king of Hungary (1000 AD) had Varangian guards, and one of the title of his son was “prince of the Rus”. The Karos district is recognized by archaeologists the first power center of the early Hungarians with concentration of aristocrats and their escort warriors, which later moved towards todays Budapest district. Double edged Viking swords are typical findings in conqueror graves, which were so far interpreted to have come from trade. Typical “hungarian” conqueror cemeteries were reported from Skandinavia, indicating the close relations of not only Vikings and Huns (as shown above by gyms) but Vikings and Hungarians a few hundred years later.

    For me possible Xiongnu relation of Hungarians is even a larger surprise. Though every Hungarian oral tradition and written source definitely claims or Hun origin, this was discredited in the last 150 years based on linguistic arguments.

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    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0002214

    We have assessed mtDNA variation in ten Viking subjects from Galgedil, ca. AD 1,000, in the northern part of Funen, Denmark. All subjects were untouched by humans at the time of sampling and additional precautions were taken to minimize the risk of pre-laboratory contamination.



    Vikings had rare mtDNA haplogroups

    DNA analysis have been made on skeletons from Viking tombs. The Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups found were the same as those found nowadays in Europe, but with a much higher percentage of the now very rare haplogroups I and X.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...NA-haplogroups

    The medieval Norsemen or Vikings

    http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../1660/20130384

    The Viking Age population had higher frequencies of K*, U*, V* and I* haplogroups than their modern counterparts, but a lower proportion of T* and H* haplogroups.

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    torokt:For me possible Xiongnu relation of Hungarians is even a larger surprise.


    Do you mean the Asian B and A mtDNA haplogroups?

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    Quote Originally Posted by torokt View Post
    What you say is quite reasonable, however in case of Goth origin I would also expect close hits from Spain, France, Austria etc. where Ghots were finally assimilated. We are in the middle of analysis, but so far 2/3rd of the hits match people from Denmark, quite a few from Ireland and Sweden and a few from Germany, England, Italy. For me this rather implies relation with Vikings than with Goths. People with german haplotypes are mainly males, only few female or kids. In spite of the above reasoning of gyms, Viking women were also involved in establishing settlements, even in Iceland many of them were not captives from the British Isles but were brought from home. Role of women are discussed at several places (links were not allowed to attach) after a paper of Shane McLeod: Warriors and women: the sex ratio of Norse migrants to eastern England up to 900.

    Finally the Rus territories overlapped those of the Hungarians before conquest in a large extent. Hungarians were reported to have gone through Kiev peacefully. Stephan the first Christian king of Hungary (1000 AD) had Varangian guards, and one of the title of his son was “prince of the Rus”. The Karos district is recognized by archaeologists the first power center of the early Hungarians with concentration of aristocrats and their escort warriors, which later moved towards todays Budapest district. Double edged Viking swords are typical findings in conqueror graves, which were so far interpreted to have come from trade. Typical “hungarian” conqueror cemeteries were reported from Skandinavia, indicating the close relations of not only Vikings and Huns (as shown above by gyms) but Vikings and Hungarians a few hundred years later.
    Actual Spain is not a good proxy to test Goth DNA, calculations provide some 200000 indivuals among 8 million Hispanoromans (2,5%), and the worst is that they concentrated in determinated areas like North Castille. For France, once they lost the battle of Vouillé in 507 they left the region to the Franks, going the local Goths to their Hispanic lands. As Sweden has not received any known big migration in the common era I think that they are yet a good proxy to test Goth DNA yet, even if there are haplo proportions differences between Götaland and Svealand... but IIRC the Rus came also from there... and if Danish people fits better for the findings, it could be also because they have not admixed with Samis.

    Of course if some hits point to Ireland the Viking option wins more points, but it could be also the product of sharing a similar origin. For the archaeological proofs of course you know much more than me, but it wouldn't be harmful to check possible "Ukranian" evidences.

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    Well, you must be right, I forgot a big defference between Vikings and Goths: the first were heathen and the second ones were Arian Christians; all Conqueror burials are clearly heathen right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Well, you must be right, I forgot a big defference between Vikings and Goths: the first were heathen and the second ones were Arian Christians; all Conqueror burials are clearly heathen right?
    Exactly, these are typical non christian steppe nomad burials with horses and other gifts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    torokt:For me possible Xiongnu relation of Hungarians is even a larger surprise.

    Do you mean the Asian B and A mtDNA haplogroups?
    Yes, these are closest to present day Buryats, inner Mongolians and Manchurians so far....
    Mansis appear only on further side branches if they appear at all. So far....

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    Quote Originally Posted by torokt View Post
    Yes, these are closest to present day Buryats, inner Mongolians and Manchurians so far....
    Mansis appear only on further side branches if they appear at all. So far....
    Sample no.3 (R1b) and sample no.17(I2a) belong to mtDNA H (H6?).
    Sample no.1 (R1b) and sample no.12 (I2a/I2a1b...) belong to haplogr. B (B4...?) resp. A (A?).
    What's the explanation for that,if they are not "real" Hungarians?

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    https://bonesdontlie.wordpress.com/2...on-in-hungary/
    In Hungary, during the Conquest period (late 9th–10th c. AD), there was a unique type of trephination. It consisted of removal of an external layer of bone, was not complete and likely had symbolic meaning. So far there have been 130 cases of surgical trephination and 157 cases of symbolic trephination found from Hungary during this period. Bereczki et al. (2013) examine these unique superficial trephinations.


    According to Révész László sample no.12 (I2a) have three symbolic skull-trephinations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torokt View Post
    Exactly, these are typical non christian steppe nomad burials with horses and other gifts.
    With that I come to the departing line... as "typical steppe nomad burials" are not likely to be expected for Vikings. This case is backed by dates, as the first stablishment of Vikings in Ukraine dates to the mid IX Century... so how they could have lost their cultural traits and way of life so quickly a people who is supposed to be river traders and pirates?

    For the Varingian guard, the Byzantines also had another, and even their origin seem in actual Sweden

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece_runestones

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_runestones

    the origin of the Rus Vikings in Sweden seems also quite possible; wikiquote:

    The earliest European reference related to the Rus' people ruled by a khagan comes from the Frankish Annals of St. Bertin, which refer to a group of Norsemen who called themselves Rhos (qui se, id est gentem suam, Rhos vocari dicebant) and visited Constantinople around the year 838.[8] Fearful of returning home via the steppes, which would leave them vulnerable to attacks by the Magyars, these Rhos travelled through the Frankish Empire accompanied by Greek ambassadors from the Byzantine emperor Theophilus. When questioned by the Frankish Emperor Louis the Pious at Ingelheim, they stated that their leader was known as chacanus (hypothesized to be either the Latin word for "Khagan" or a deformation of Scandinavian proper name Håkan),[9] that they lived far to the north, and that they were Swedes (comperit eos gentis esse sueonum).[10]
    In fact Sweden is known as Ruotsi by Fins.

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    Then our data need a better explanation.... There must have neen another german group out on the steppe with high cultural affinity to huns and even higher genetic affinity to scandinavians...

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    Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=news

    The Russian Newsweek tested the first two Rurikid princes. The first one was Prince Dmitri Mikhailovich Shahovskoi of Paris, France, the prominent Professor at the Russian Orthodox Institute, who made the 1st Y-DNA test in the Rurikid Dynasty (at the end of 2006). Unexpectedly, he was found to belong to the genetic haplogroup N1c1 – the so-called “Finno-Ugrian”. Later, however, it was discovered that the N1c1 Rurikid princes belong to the so-called “Varangian Branch” in this haplogroup. This branch is one that is quite different from the present population of Finland (which is the “Finno-Karelian Branch”).

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    Quote Originally Posted by torokt View Post
    Then our data need a better explanation.... There must have neen another german group out on the steppe with high cultural affinity to huns and even higher genetic affinity to scandinavians...
    Difficult task, but by now I bet for the Goths that reamined in Ukraine, from Getica (written in 550):

    Now the Gothic race gained great fame in the region where they were then dwelling, that is in the Scythian land on the shore of Pontus, holding undisputed sway over great stretches of country, many arms of the sea and many river courses.
    There were other Goths also, called the Lesser, a great people whose priest and primate was Vulfila, who is said to have taught them to write. And to-day they are in Moesia, inhabiting the Nicopolitan region as far as the base of Mount Haemus. They are a numerous people, but poor and unwarlike, rich in nothing save flocks of various kinds and pasture-lands for cattle and forests for wood. Their country is not fruitful in wheat and other sorts of grain. Certain of them do not know that vineyards exist elsewhere, and they buy their wine from neighboring countries. But most of them drink milk.
    these statements seem to point that the Goths adapted to live in the steppes, so that they relied in their flocks; we have Germanic people with Germainc DNA with an steppe way of life, so it would be quite possible that some Goths were compelled to go with the Magyars to Pannonia as Pechenegs could hardly distinguish who was Goth or Magyar, they just wanted the land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Difficult task, but by now I bet for the Goths that reamined in Ukraine, from Getica (written in 550):
    I am inclined to beleive you, but my problem is the large time gap and historical turmoil during this time gap between the Huns and Hungarians in this region.
    If Getica is right, the returning Goths must have been Ostrogoths, who well integrated into Attila’s Hunnic society. We know that the Huns did only disappear from The Carpathian Basin after 454, but were present on the pontic steppes. One of Attila’s son Ernak moved into Scythia Minor (lower Danube, Dobruja today, that time belonged to Byzantium), and Goths were among his people.

    Another groups (with hunnic origin according to some sources) appeared soon above the Black See, the utrigurs and kutrigurs, though some regard these Bulgars. One thing is clear, the retreating Huns became parts of newly emerging leading powers. One of these were the Avars, who defeated the utrigurs and kutrigurs (and other peoples) and integrated them into their society. In my opinion many of the huns were brought back into the Carpathian Basin as allies of the the Avars.

    Even if some Huns and Goths wre left back on the Pontic steppes, they must have integrated into the next emerging organizations, like Bulgars, Alans, Khazars. Then the Bulgars also moved south, probably taking many of the integrated peoples with them.

    Do we have any written sources other then Getica, which mention Goths as parts of any of the above people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    According to Révész László sample no.12 (I2a) have three symbolic skull-trephinations.
    This is another thing we must sometimes go after. You seem to be extremely well informed about hungarian anthropological and archaeological issues, as if these textbooks were on your shelf and read them in Hungarian....

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    Quote Originally Posted by torokt View Post
    This is another thing we must sometimes go after. You seem to be extremely well informed about hungarian anthropological and archaeological issues, as if these textbooks were on your shelf and read them in Hungarian....
    I am a csan-go musician and my wife is Diego a+b+.
    Last edited by gyms; 06-12-16 at 14:53.

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    Other authors writing about Goths were Procopius and Isidore of Seville but they tell their deeds in the Roman Empire. I think that as the Pontic Steppes fall into the Byzanthine sphere of influence the main sources might be taken from there. I suppose that tracking the history of the Crimean Goths could provide more information. By the way I think that if such Goths were able to stay in the Pontic steppes would be because they were not more attached to the land in an economical sense, maybe they were citizens involved in trading or so, and by that they would have had better chances to overcome Huns, Cumans, Petchenegs, Bulgars, etc. ... but speaking frankly the steppes were a kind of ethnic mill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Other authors writing about Goths were Procopius and Isidore of Seville but they tell their deeds in the Roman Empire. I think that as the Pontic Steppes fall into the Byzanthine sphere of influence the main sources might be taken from there. I suppose that tracking the history of the Crimean Goths could provide more information. By the way I think that if such Goths were able to stay in the Pontic steppes would be because they were not more attached to the land in an economical sense, maybe they were citizens involved in trading or so, and by that they would have had better chances to overcome Huns, Cumans, Petchenegs, Bulgars, etc. ... but speaking frankly the steppes were a kind of ethnic mill.
    What if samples 1 and 3 are not R1b?

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    According to this Kazakh press report, remains from an elite Hunnic burial in what is now Hungary belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup L and mitochondrial (mtDNA) haplogroup D4j12.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...s-in-Kazakstan

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