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Thread: Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA and Y-DNA

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    I have asked for the sequence, two hungarians from Karos1 are nearly identical....

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    What if samples 1 and 3 are not R1b?
    What is the point?
    Quote Originally Posted by torokt View Post
    This is another thing we must sometimes go after. You seem to be extremely well informed about hungarian anthropological and archaeological issues, as if these textbooks were on your shelf and read them in Hungarian....

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    Quote Originally Posted by torokt View Post
    I have asked for the sequence, two hungarians from Karos1 are nearly identical....
    Are they close relatives? Do you have any STR values?

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    According to both Y and autosomal STR they are brothers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torokt View Post
    According to both Y and autosomal STR they are brothers.
    From same father but 2 different mothers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torokt View Post
    What is the point?
    When it comes to aDNA everything is possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    When it comes to aDNA everything is possible.
    Not so much. DNA is hard science.

    Sent from my thor using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...8.00440.x/full

    To elucidate this question we attempted to screen 8 skeletal remains, from the age of the Hungarian Conquest, for the Tat C polymorphism, using bones from which ancient mtDNA fragments had been successfully recovered, which were therefore good candidates for Y-chromosomal analysis. Four of the 8 examined contained detectable Y-chromosomal DNA after whole genome amplification. Out of these, two possess the Tat C mutation. In case of the sample anc19 the presence of the ancestral Tat T allele was confirmed by typing the ancestral state (C allele) of the marker M9 (C→G)...

    "Four of the 8 examined contained detectable Y-chromosomal DNA after whole genome amplification. Out of these, two possess the Tat C mutation."

    But there is two more samples!!! What's their haplogroup? And what is the haplogroup of Ladislaus I of Hungary and King Béla III/ Coloman the Bookish ?

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    Ask the authors... in short I do not trust these data, because they only tested Tat, on very few samples with early technology. Nevertheless according to our preliminary Y data N1c (Tat) is present in the conquerors, frequency unknown. The origin of this allele is in east-middle Asia, so not necessarily a finno-ugric marker.

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    Several explanations have been suggested for the striking absence of Tat C in the linguistically Uralic modern Hungarian population (Rootsi et al., 2000; Semino et al., 2000b). One is that Voguls and Ostyaks, and many other Siberian populations obtained this Y-chromosomal lineage only relatively recently, after the ancestors of the Magyars had left the Siberian forests for the great Eurasian steppe. Another is that Hungarians and Siberian Ugric-speaking populations have always been genetically unrelated despite their linguistic affinities. A third possibility is that the ancestral Magyars did have the Tat C allele, but lost it through genetic drift during their migration to Hungary, or after their settlement there.

    My favorite :"...Voguls and Ostyaks, and many other Siberian populations obtained this Y-chromosomal lineage only relatively recently..."

    The Tat C allele was found to be frequent not only among the Finno-Ugric populations but also among Latvians and Lithuanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=news

    The Russian Newsweek tested the first two Rurikid princes. The first one was Prince Dmitri Mikhailovich Shahovskoi of Paris, France, the prominent Professor at the Russian Orthodox Institute, who made the 1st Y-DNA test in the Rurikid Dynasty (at the end of 2006). Unexpectedly, he was found to belong to the genetic haplogroup N1c1 – the so-called “Finno-Ugrian”. Later, however, it was discovered that the N1c1 Rurikid princes belong to the so-called “Varangian Branch” in this haplogroup. This branch is one that is quite different from the present population of Finland (which is the “Finno-Karelian Branch”).






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    1 members found this post helpful.
    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/12/07/092239

    Abstract

    As part of the effort to create a high resolution representative sequence database of the medieval Hungarian conquerors we have resequenced the entire mtDNA genome of 24 published ancient samples with Next Generation Sequencing, whose haplotypes had been previously determined with traditional PCR based methods. We show that PCR based methods are prone to erroneous haplotype or haplogroup determination due to ambiguous sequence reads, and many of the resequenced samples had been classified inaccurately. The SNaPshot method applied with published ancient DNA authenticity criteria is the most straightforward and cheapest PCR based approach for testing a large number of coding region SNP-s, which greatly facilitates correct haplogroup determination.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    torokt:For me possible Xiongnu relation of Hungarians is even a larger surprise.


    Do you mean the Asian B and A mtDNA haplogroups?
    THE NANAI CLAN SAMAR: THE STRUCTURE OF GENE POOL BASED ON Y-CHROMOSOME MARKERS
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...63011015001294

    Members of the Nanai clan Samar reside in the Gorin area of the Khabarovsk Territory. Their gene pool was studied using the SNP markers of the Y-chromosome. The major haplogroup, occurring in more than 83% of clansmen, is the northern Eurasian haplogroup N1c1-M178. Four other haplogroups are С*-М130, I*-M170, J2a1а-M47, and O2-P31.

    I*-M170 is quite interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    THE NANAI CLAN SAMAR: THE STRUCTURE OF GENE POOL BASED ON Y-CHROMOSOME MARKERS
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...63011015001294

    Members of the Nanai clan Samar reside in the Gorin area of the Khabarovsk Territory. Their gene pool was studied using the SNP markers of the Y-chromosome. The major haplogroup, occurring in more than 83% of clansmen, is the northern Eurasian haplogroup N1c1-M178. Four other haplogroups are С*-М130, I*-M170, J2a1а-M47, and O2-P31.

    I*-M170 is quite interesting.
    The area locates near port Vladivostok. So it is possibly from Russian. However, is N1c1-M178 related with Tungus people?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    [QUOTE=johen;496935]The area locates near port Vladivostok. So it is possibly from Russian.

    I-M170 and I-P37.2 is present at low frequencies in other Eurasian countries and popuations like Kazan Tatars,Kazakhstan,Üzbekistan,Pakistan,South Altai,Koryaks,Evenks,Nenets etc. So who knows?
    http://www.transpacificproject.com/i...etic-research/

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post

    I-M170 and I-P37.2 is present at low frequencies in other Eurasian countries and popuations like Kazan Tatars,Kazakhstan,Üzbekistan,Pakistan,South Altai,Koryaks,Evenks,Nenets etc. So who knows?
    http://www.transpacificproject.com/i...etic-research/
    Interesting, gyms, but may I ask where you in this link you see these populations specifically having I-P37.2? I just see the map with a key for haplogroup I (which I understand being I-M170 yes?) but without the subclade.

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    [QUOTE=Kisuan;496981]Interesting, gyms, but may I ask where you in this link you see these populations specifically having I

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    There is I-P37 in Merke Kazakhstan,Jeti-Oguz Kyrgyzstan,Novosibirsk and Tobolsk Russia.......

    One of the most interesting finds is the presence of a few IJ-M429* chromosomes in the sample. Haplogroup IJ encompasses the major European I subclade, and the major West Asian J subclade. The discovery of IJ* chromosomes is consistent with the origin of this haplogroup in West Asia; it is widely believed that haplogroup I represents a pre-Neolithic lineage in Europe, although at present there are no Y chromosome-tested pre-Neolithic remains.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2012/07/...iation-in.html

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    http://genome.cshlp.org/content/earl...5.115.abstract

    In addition, we uncovered admixtures between Siberians and Eastern European hunter-gatherers from Samara, Karelia, Hungary, and Sweden (from 8000–6600 yr ago); Yamnaya people (5300–4700 yr ago); and modern-day Northeastern Europeans. Our results provide new insights into genetic histories of Siberian and Northeastern European populations and evidence of ancient gene flow from Siberia into Europe.

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    [QUOTE=Kisuan;496981]Interesting, gyms, but may I ask where you in this link you see these populations specifically having I

    http://www.ranhaer.com/redirect.php?...&goto=lastpost

    We have studied the gene pools of populations with «Tatar» enthonym in three regions of Eurasia – Tatars of Crimea, Tatars of Volga region and Tatars of Siberia. About 1000 individuals of these peoples were analyzed on 50 SNP markers of Y-chromosome, the most informative tool in population genetics. Ethnoterritorial groups of Tatars were found to be genetically different, we didn’t found their common ancestry component. The Westasian and Mediterranean genetic components (population of Asia Minor and Balkans) predominate in the gene pool of Crimea Tatars, the Eurasian steppe component is much fewer. The genetic variants of Ural and North Europe predominate in the gene pool of Volga Tatars, the genetic components of Asia Minor and Central Asia are much fewer. The populations of Siberia Tatars are very variable. Some includes the prominent Siberian genetic component, other has predominated genetic lineages from southwest regions of Eurasia. Consequently the gene pools of all the Tatar ethnoterritorial groups were formed based on the indigenous population with genetic flow of migrations from other regions.

    I2a1-P37.2 in

    Tobol-Irtysh:3.1%
    Istyak-Tokuz 11.6%
    Siberian Bukhar Tatars: 3.8%

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    Preliminary mitochondrial DNA analysis of a 10th Century medieval population in Capidava (Constanta,Romania)

    http://www.ibiol.ro/proiecte/PNII/GE.../IoanaRusu.pdf

    Conclusion
    If...mutations will be confirmed for M3 and M4 it could possible reveal:
    1. BothM3 and M4 originated from migrants of the Volga-Ural region.
    2.

    http://www.ibiol.ro/proiecte/PNII/GENESIS/rezultate.htm

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    http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/3794...raczki_PhD.pdf

    Our data implies that Hungarian conquerors assembled from three major sources before the conquest, corresponding to 3 major distinct populations. It follows that our initial population genetic analysis which considered the conquerors as a single population was not justified. Based on genetic and historical data half of the conqueror population had probably Xiongnu origin, corroborating the statement of medieval Hungarian chronicles, which all declare Hunnic origin of the Hungarians. The conquerors with Scandinavian-German genetic affinity had most probably Ostrogothic origin, as this group was reported to have been integrated into the European Hun Empire hundreds of years before the conquest. Interestingly this European component also support the Hun affinity of the Hungarian conquerors. Our data do not support the Finno-Ugric origin of the conquerors, therefore historical linguistic arguments will have to be reconsidered. The lack of Finno-Ugric genetic rather raises the possibility, that the language connection can also be be indirect, which may have happened very long time (thousands of years) ago.

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    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0076748

    Table S5.

    Y-Chromosome STR profile for each individual in populations from Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan (CEPH), Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan.
    doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0076748.s015
    (XLS)

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    http://media.proquest.com/media/pq/c...miwJ46qIleM%3D

    UNDERSTANDING ANCIENT HUMAN POPULATION GENETICS OF THE EASTERN EURASIAN STEPPE THROUGH MITOCHONDRIAL DNA ANALYSIS: CENTRAL MONGOLIAN SAMPLES FROM THE NEOLITHIC, BRONZE AGE, IRON AGE AND MONGOL EMPIRE PERIODS

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    Mitochondrial DNA diversity in a Transbaikalian Xiongnu population

    http://link.springer.com/article/10....520-017-0481-x

    We detected 16 mitochondrial DNA haplotypes belonging to seven East Eurasian haplogroups (A, B5, C, D4, G2a, N9a, and Y) in the Transbaikalian Xiongnu series. We observed substantial similarity between Transbaikalian and Mongolian Xiongnu series with respect to main haplogroup composition and frequencies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/3794...raczki_PhD.pdf

    Our data implies that Hungarian conquerors assembled from three major sources before the conquest, corresponding to 3 major distinct populations. It follows that our initial population genetic analysis which considered the conquerors as a single population was not justified. Based on genetic and historical data half of the conqueror population had probably Xiongnu origin, corroborating the statement of medieval Hungarian chronicles, which all declare Hunnic origin of the Hungarians. The conquerors with Scandinavian-German genetic affinity had most probably Ostrogothic origin, as this group was reported to have been integrated into the European Hun Empire hundreds of years before the conquest. Interestingly this European component also support the Hun affinity of the Hungarian conquerors. Our data do not support the Finno-Ugric origin of the conquerors, therefore historical linguistic arguments will have to be reconsidered. The lack of Finno-Ugric genetic rather raises the possibility, that the language connection can also be be indirect, which may have happened very long time (thousands of years) ago.
    This study is total BS, almost unreal someone would publish this shit.

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