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Thread: Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA and Y-DNA

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    Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA and Y-DNA

    Article here. Running for work, will read later.
    http://link.springer.com/article/10....438-016-1267-z

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Article here. Running for work, will read later.
    http://link.springer.com/article/10....438-016-1267-z
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ws-quot/page18
    "2 haplotypes match the typical I2-M423 haplotype common among Slavic speakers. The other 2 match R1b-U106. I have a hard time believing either group inhabited southern Siberia, so I'm doubtful either really represents a conquering Hungarian from Siberia. However, it appears some of the mtDNA haplotypes are A, and B, so on the maternal side there might be some argument there."

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    Hungarians migrations, slow, pushed them in a lot of lands and they progressively assimilated diverse pops; they stayed long enough time in western Ukraina before settling in Carpathian Bassin. Their ethnogenesis is very complicated in fact.

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    Very true, the Ukranian stay would be a good place to acquire Y DNA of Germanic Gothians (the language was yet alive in XIII century Crimea).

    http://i.imgur.com/Eb2BB3f.jpg

    By the way till reading the paper as to know if the type of cemetery correspond to Magyars or locals it's not sure that such DNA was aloctone.
    Last edited by berun; 04-11-16 at 20:44.
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    Interesting. They look very local and not central Asian. I wonder if these hungarian researchers didn't "influence" the results? This is a bit of touchy matter for hungarian european identity.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    "Hungarians migrations, slow, pushed them in a lot of lands and they progressively assimilated diverse pops; they stayed long enough time in western Ukraina before settling in Carpathian Bassin. Their ethnogenesis is very complicated in fact."

    No.The migration took about thirty-sixty years (AD 830/850 - 895/896).

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Interesting. They look very local and not central Asian. I wonder if these hungarian researchers didn't "influence" the results? This is a bit of touchy matter for hungarian european identity.
    What are you getting at?
    Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA haplotypes and Y-chromosome haplogroups in a small cemetery



    • Endre Neparáczki
    • Zoltán Juhász
    • Horolma Pamjav
    • Tibor Fehér
    • Bernadett Csányi
    • Albert Zink
    • Frank Maixner
    • György Pálfi
    • Erika Molnár
    • Ildikó Pap
    • Ágnes Kustár
    • László Révész
    • István Raskó
    • Tibor TörökEmail author

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Authentication criteria
    Ancient DNA work was performed in the specialized
    ancient DNA (aDNA) facilities of the Department of
    Genetics, University of Szeged, Hungary with strict cleanroom
    conditions, according to appropriate criteria (Knapp
    et al. 2012). The post-PCR work was done in a laboratory
    located in a separated remote side-wing of the building.
    Throughout the experiments, the multistrategy DNA
    decontamination procedure of Champlot et al. (2010)
    was applied, namely, water was irradiated with 5 kGy
    gamma ray, enzymes, dNTP and primers were treated

    with hl-dsDNase and buffers were UV irradiated. Several
    DNA extraction and non-template PCR blank controls were
    used, and only samples with negative control results were
    maintained.
    DNA isolation and HVR haplotyping of three samples
    (15, 16, and 19) were replicated in the laboratory of
    EURAC Bolzano, with identical results. Two of the Y-chr
    Hg-s revealed by GenoY25 SNPs could also be corroborated
    by STR analysis performed independently in the Network
    of Forensic Science Institutes, Budapest.
    Hg-s and haplotypes of laboratory staff were determined,
    and were not identical with any of the samples.
    The GenoCoRe and especially GenoY electropherograms
    often contained double peaks indicating contamination,
    nevertheless from repeated purifications and sequencing,
    multiple SNaPshot reactions, optimized single-plex
    PCR and STR data Hg-s could be determined unequivocally
    in most cases. The GenoCoRe22 results were concordant
    with Hg assignments based on HVR sequence.
    We have identified a large number of Asian mtDNA
    haplotypes, which are very rare in modern-day Hungarian
    populations, and could not be derived from contamination.





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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Conquerors were women!

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Conquerors were women!
    Keep smiling,arvistro!Conquerors ARE always women.

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    It would be culturally correct that maygar people came from central asia or south siberia.

    Some scholars in the East Asia claimed that maygar people originated in Margal tribe to be called to be Jurichen(Jin) or Manchu people (Qing dynasty) also who ruled China two times. Sometime Jurichen was called " Khitan".
    Margal hairstyle was same as the Hun's.

    However, the hairstyle of Maygar was a little different.
    Maygar people shaved their head except three long braids. you can see the braids of maygar horseman also.
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvV...20long&f=false

    Their hairstyle was similar to avar, khitan, and mongol.
    I think this kind of culture came from central Asia, the heritage of american Indian, who stayed in altai.

    Maygar


    Avar


    Khitan
    Last edited by johen; 04-11-16 at 22:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Interesting. They look very local and not central Asian. I wonder if these hungarian researchers didn't "influence" the results? This is a bit of touchy matter for hungarian european identity.
    The researcher's haplogroup is J2, it is stated in one of the tables. Well... local or not, also those mongol aristocrats from the imperial family grave belonged to Y haplogroup R1b, subclade unknown.

    I wonder if it popped out another Y-DNA haplogoup different from R1b... well, I would say that nobody would dare to put in doubt the connection with the historical conquerors. But it is R1b, so it is better to say that the conclusions are wrong. Great!

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    If the Magyars came from Siberia wouldn't they belong to haplogroup N1c and R1a?

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    Some other studies had N1c if I recall right. This one had R1b and I2.
    They most likely were multi-cultural mix of tribes, that for some reason decided to speak Finno-Ugric tongue of Mansi cousins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Some other studies had N1c if I recall right. This one had R1b and I2.
    They most likely were multi-cultural mix of tribes, that for some reason decided to speak Finno-Ugric tongue of Mansi cousins.
    I think so...is the conclusion towards which the results want to bring us.

    On a different level, also germanic tribes were surely a multi-cultural mix...look at those ergolding results: four r1b knights (three of those fully equipped with horseman's features) and two g2a knights.

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    Perhaps every tribe was. At some point

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    By the way till reading the paper as to know if the type of cemetery correspond to Magyars or locals it's not sure that such DNA was aloctone.
    Just I was getting the info about the traditional Magyar burials as to know if the genetists have tested true Magyar DNA or just local DNA, and in the wiki there is this info about the Kushnarenkovo and Karayakupovo cultures north of Bashkiria...:

    Archaeologists have found that the studied tribes at an early stage (in VI-VIII centuries) were buried under mounds, the heads to north. Skull buried - with signs of artificial deformation. Later, the head to the dead already oriented to the west. The burials of the remains of weapons, horse gear, a variety of jewelry and ceramics.
    The culture is also represented by earthen mounds with a diameter of 8–10 m and a height of 40–60 cm over the graves. Near the graves and within them there are traces of ritual burial horse (skins, heads and four legs). People were buried in wooden coffins. The bottom is littered coffins, woolen cloth. Coffins before lowering into the grave for holding of the fire. This simulated ritual cremation. The feet of the dead is often associated with ropes - to the dead man could not stand up and do harm to survivors. On the coffin and put leather bridle sets. Sometimes near the grave dug pits for placing caches in them saddle and bridle sets.
    So I was wondering how a culture with kurgans and horses was not immediately assigned to IE languages by Yamnayists ;) so that I checked again the Y DNA results as to be sure that the R1b were not the Yamnayan R1b (otherwise I would have laughed several hours and surely it would not be good for my health...). The case is that the Anthrogenica comment is based on what in the supplementary info of the paper appears, two R1b1b1a and two I, but the case is that such R1b1b1a is labeled as S21 / U106... but the real actual expression is R1b1a2a1a1...

    so I ask for help, my life is in danger...
    ;)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Just I was getting the info about the traditional Magyar burials as to know if the genetists have tested true Magyar DNA or just local DNA, and in the wiki there is this info about the Kushnarenkovo and Karayakupovo cultures north of Bashkiria...:





    So I was wondering how a culture with kurgans and horses was not immediately assigned to IE languages by Yamnayists ;) so that I checked again the Y DNA results as to be sure that the R1b were not the Yamnayan R1b (otherwise I would have laughed several hours and surely it would not be good for my health...). The case is that the Anthrogenica comment is based on what in the supplementary info of the paper appears, two R1b1b1a and two I, but the case is that such R1b1b1a is labeled as S21 / U106... but the real actual expression is R1b1a2a1a1...

    so I ask for help, my life is in danger...
    ;)
    Please, spare me your cheap and sad sarcasm, it's really rude and out of topic when you talk about an early medieval culture and link it unlogically to a prehystoric culture to denigrate other people's thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    "Hungarians migrations, slow, pushed them in a lot of lands and they progressively assimilated diverse pops; they stayed long enough time in western Ukraina before settling in Carpathian Bassin. Their ethnogenesis is very complicated in fact."

    No.The migration took about thirty-sixty years (AD 830/850 - 895/896).
    What part of their tribulations? the better known, true. Their far (Ugric) ancestry begun east the Urals, where a basis of 'cromagnoid' (eastern) mixed with a 'mongoloid' elite at the Bronze/Iron transition - it seems at plain Iron Age they migrated weswards and stayed in Kama/Byelaya region (Bashkiria: Y-R1b? needs subclades); during these periods they had possible contacts with Southern Steppes people climbed northwards, even of possible Caucasus origin (I-Eans?) - They mixed later with Central Asia Turkic tribes too. Their language shows turkic (breeding, agriculture) and iranic words, confirmed by anthropological studies (Turanid/Pamirid types) - So yes, the final rush was short, but it concenred only a little part of their long migration towards West. If I rely on Péter Hajdù (1980). And they had a long time to cross with others.


    in these regions they were already in position to have contact with people of the southern Steppes (and I-Eans?); their strong 'europoid' componants are not debt to hazard -

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ws-quot/page18
    "2 haplotypes match the typical I2-M423 haplotype common among Slavic speakers. The other 2 match R1b-U106. I have a hard time believing either group inhabited southern Siberia, so I'm doubtful either really represents a conquering Hungarian from Siberia. However, it appears some of the mtDNA haplotypes are A, and B, so on the maternal side there might be some argument there."
    I2-M423 and R1b-U106 were almost certainly both present in Hungary before the Magyars arrived. They would have been brought respectively by the Slavic migrations and the Germanic migrations a few centuries earlier. But both of them would also have been found further east, e.g. in Ukraine, and it's not impossible that these specific samples were really invaders from the north-east. It's just that they weren't true Magyars but were assimilated on the way from Siberia to Hungary.
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    Are they talking about Magyar or Hungarian elite (Ungar, Ugur - Turkic?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I2-M423 and R1b-U106 were almost certainly both present in Hungary before the Magyars arrived. They would have been brought respectively by the Slavic migrations and the Germanic migrations a few centuries earlier. But both of them would also have been found further east, e.g. in Ukraine, and it's not impossible that these specific samples were really invaders from the north-east. It's just that they weren't true Magyars but were assimilated on the way from Siberia to Hungary.
    Whatif they were Onogurs?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onogurs

    "We present 17 mtDNA haplotypes
    and four Y-chromosome haplogroups, which portray the
    genetic composition of an entire small cemetery of the first
    generation Hungarians."

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    The exonym "Hungarian" is thought to be derived from Ugor or the Bulgar-Turkic On-Ogur (meaning "ten" Ogurs),[25] which was the name of the tribes who joined the Bulgar tribal confederacy that ruled the eastern parts of Hungary after the Avars. Nonetheless, written sources called Magyars "Hungarians" prior to the conquest of the Carpathian Basin (in 837 "Ungri" mentioned by Georgius Monachus, in 862 "Ungri" by Annales Bertiniani, in 881 "Ungari" by the Annales ex Annalibus Iuvavensibus) when they still lived on the steppes of Eastern Europe eastward from the Carpathians. The Hungarians probably belonged to the Onogur tribal alliance, and it is possible that they became its ethnic majority.[25] In the Early Middle Ages the Hungarians had many different names, such as "Ungherese" (in Italian) or Ungar (in German) or Hungarus.[26] The "H-" prefix is an addition in Medieval Latin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians

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    Observations on anthropological research concerning the
    period of Hungarian conquest and the Arpadian age


    http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-95.pdf


    The work of Tibor Tóth extended the range of investigations
    (Tóth 1958, 1965, 1973). In his opinion the conquering
    Hungarians came to a relatively similar morphological
    environment in the central Danubian Basin. Later on their
    Mongolid character faded. Their ethnogenesis had already
    taken place in the North-Caspian region. In 1992, he reworded
    his earlier observations. As opposed to former opinions, he
    thought that the elements of the Mongolid great-race had
    been as completely insignificant in the ethnic composition
    of the conquering Hungarians as in that of the Avar Khaganat,
    and also in other, “historic populations of the 2nd millennium
    AD”. He interpreted the Hungarian conquest as the last
    migration wave of the Europid Pontic race proceeding from
    the North Caspian region into the Central Danubian region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    The exonym "Hungarian" is thought to be derived from Ugor or the Bulgar-Turkic On-Ogur (meaning "ten" Ogurs),[25] which was the name of the tribes who joined the Bulgar tribal confederacy that ruled the eastern parts of Hungary after the Avars. Nonetheless, written sources called Magyars "Hungarians" prior to the conquest of the Carpathian Basin (in 837 "Ungri" mentioned by Georgius Monachus, in 862 "Ungri" by Annales Bertiniani, in 881 "Ungari" by the Annales ex Annalibus Iuvavensibus) when they still lived on the steppes of Eastern Europe eastward from the Carpathians. The Hungarians probably belonged to the Onogur tribal alliance, and it is possible that they became its ethnic majority.[25] In the Early Middle Ages the Hungarians had many different names, such as "Ungherese" (in Italian) or Ungar (in German) or Hungarus.[26] The "H-" prefix is an addition in Medieval Latin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians
    They say that it was cementary from year 895. So probably it is about new arrivals the Magyars, from much closer by.


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