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Thread: FTDNA ancientOrigins

  1. #26
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    55% - Farmer
    45% - Metal Age Invader
    0% - Hunter Gatherer
    0% - Non-European


    'Metal Age Invader' seems to be a Caucaso-Gedrosia (Iranian Plateau) marker...

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    In my case the percentage for Metal-age invader is exactly the same as the Gedrosia in Dodecad K12b, so they do not take into account at all the fact that Yamna only had about 30% of Gedrosia, and the rest was mostly Mesolithic European (North_European in K12b). Therefore a good deal of the Hunter-Gatherer reported in FTDNA is of Indo-European origin and should be listed as Metal-age invaders.

    I don't understand how a supposedly serious company like FTDNA could publish such misleading (in fact downright wrong) data, when they have the means to compare customers' genomes directly with Yamna samples and other prehistoric samples (Mesolithic Europeans, Near Eastern farmers). That's really a blow to the image of FTDNA, in my opinion.
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    In my case the percentage for Metal-age invader is exactly the same as the Gedrosia in Dodecad K12b, so they do not take into account at all the fact that Yamna only had about 30% of Gedrosia, and the rest was mostly Mesolithic European (North_European in K12b). Therefore a good deal of the Hunter-Gatherer reported in FTDNA is of Indo-European origin and should be listed as Metal-age invaders.

    I don't understand how a supposedly serious company like FTDNA could publish such misleading (in fact downright wrong) data, when they have the means to compare customers' genomes directly with Yamna samples and other prehistoric samples (Mesolithic Europeans, Near Eastern farmers). That's really a blow to the image of FTDNA, in my opinion.
    Because Hunter Gatherers were just very 'primitive' tribes (some say cannibals) that were just hunting and gathering their food. While Gedrosia from the Iranian Plateau people were highly advanced 'metallurgy' people (Aryans) who build empires and found civilizations (Mesopotamia, BMAC, Indus Valley, Egypt, Greece?? etc..)

    Without Gedrosia there would be NEVER metallurgy in the Yamnaya Horizon. That's why Metal Age Invaders are assosiated with Gedrosia (Iranian Plateau) people. It were the Gedrosia (Iranian Plateau) people who Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon. Yamnaya folks were just a SECOND stage Indo-Europeans who invaded Europe. It is just that plain and simple...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    I have seen that Caucasians have highest Metal Age admix of all the results I've seen. I guess Metal Age invaders is a mix of CHG+ANE.
    See these from Afghanistan and (it seems) India, around 60%: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...tOrigins/page9
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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Because Hunter Gatherers were just very 'primitive' tribes (some say cannibals) that were just hunting and gathering their food. While Gedrosia from the Iranian Plateau people were highly advanced 'metallurgy' people (Aryans) who build empires and found civilizations (Mesopotamia, BMAC, Indus Valley, Egypt, Greece?? etc..)

    Without Gedrosia there would be NEVER metallurgy in the Yamnaya Horizon. That's why Metal Age Invaders are assosiated with Gedrosia (Iranian Plateau) people. It were the Gedrosia (Iranian Plateau) people who Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon. Yamnaya folks were just a SECOND stage Indo-Europeans who invaded Europe. It is just that plain and simple...
    You are so wrong and it's painful to see that you can't even realise it. I am sure it's useless to explain it again to you as you will never understand and change your mind about pre-Iranian inhabitant of Iran being the source of civilization. But I will explain so that other (new) members don't get confused.

    1) Metallurgy (copper, silver and gold smelting) was not invented in Iran or the South Caucasus, but in central Anatolia and in the Balkans. So far there is no way to tell if the two happened independently.

    2) Bronze metallurgy was invented in the North Caucasus, in the Maykop culture, which could be considered as a sub-culture of Yamna, given the very close interactions between the two. Bronze quickly spread around all the Pontic-Caspian Steppe where it acquired a military role. The fact is that there was no real metal-age invasion before the expansion of Yamna people. Copper is not robust enough to make swords or large axes, let alone helmets and armours. It is malleable and like other softer metals (gold, silver) it has primarily a decorative use. I do not deny that there was a Neolithic migration from the South Caucasus or Iran to the Steppe, but these were cattle herders, not metal-age warriors.

    3) FTDNA's Metal-age invader admixture really does look like CHG, which is based on Late Palaeolithic–Mesolithic Caucasus hunter-gatherers. It is not even the same as Gedrosia. It is wider than that and may be closer to the West Asian admixture in Dodecad K12. That explains why Northwest Europeans, who have the highest percentage of Yamna ancestry according to Haak 2015, end up with far less 'Metal-age invader than South Italians and Maltese (who have the lowest no Steppe ancestry in Europe along with Sardinians), or even Greeks and Middle Easterners.

    4) FTDNA is an American company with mostly Western customers. The ancientOrigins tool was developed with these Western people of European descent in mind. In fact I find it rather shocking, and surprising considering that FTDNA's boss is Jewish, that they did not even specify that 'Hunter-Gatherers' means exclusively European Hunter-Gatherers, not Caucasian HG or Natufian, or North African, or Siberian, or East Asian or whatever else it could have implied. Imagine a person of Chinese descent ordering the FTDNA test and wondering what to do with the results? "100% Others"? What good is that to them? Even Jewish customers, who are much more numerous at FTDNA, would find it useless. If I were Jewish I would like to know my percentage of Natufian ancestry, which is a type of hunter-gatherer. So this ancientOrigins tool is completely useless for people of non-European descent as the labels all implied a European point of view. But they are also useless for Europeans, since they only look at the Caucasian/Gedrosian 30% of Yamna people to determine Metal-age Steppe ancestry.

    If you can't even realise that it's very sad, especially considering the number of years you have spend on the forum, apparently just to remind people of your daffy and delusory theories. In fact, I am getting a bit fed up of you, and if I see you mention one more time the kind of ineptitude I quoted here, you are out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    See these from Afghanistan and (it seems) India, around 60%: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...tOrigins/page9
    The same Yamnaya samples scores around 30% gedrosia on Dodecad K12b.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    2) Bronze metallurgy was invented in the North Caucasus, in the Maykop culture, which could be considered as a sub-culture of Yamna, given the very close interactions between the two. Bronze quickly spread around all the Pontic-Caspian Steppe where it acquired a military role. The fact is that there was no real metal-age invasion before the expansion of Yamna people. Copper is not robust enough to make swords or large axes, let alone helmets and armours. It is malleable and like other softer metals (gold, silver) it has primarily a decorative use. I do not deny that there was a Neolithic migration from the South Caucasus or Iran to the Steppe, but these were cattle herders, not metal-age warriors.
    Well, it is your OPINION against the SCIENCE. Don't be angry at me. I'm just reproducing what science is telling us. Be angry at the science that is proving you wrong.


    " Arsenical bronze was used by many societies and cultures across the globe. Firstly, the Iranian plateau, followed by the adjacent Mesopotamian area, together covering modern Iran, Iraq and Syria, has the earliest arsenical bronze metallurgy in the world, as previously mentioned. It was in use from the 4th millennium BC through to mid 2nd millennium, a period of nearly 2,000 years. There was a great deal of variation in arsenic content of artefacts throughout this period, making it impossible to say exactly how much was added deliberately and how much came about by accident.[5] Societies using arsenical bronze include the Akkadians, those of Ur, and the Amorites, all based around the Tigris and Euphrates rivers and centres of the trade networks which spread arsenical bronze across the Middle East during the Bronze Age.[5] "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenical_bronze


    " The Zagros Mountains are rich in mineral resources, so metal-workers could mix copper with arsenic or iron to harden it. The technique of making arsenical copper bronze spread to the copper-rich Caucasus by 3,700 BC. True bronze (a copper-tin alloy) did not appear until around 3000 BC. "

    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/metal.shtml


    " More recently, Thornton et al. (2009) proposed that an artificial iron-arsenic alloy, called speiss, was produced in Early Bronze Age Tepe Hissar, North Iran, presumably to be added to copper metal for the production of arsenical copper. Even though finds of speiss are relatively well-known from several EBA copper workshops, suggesting that this material was widely used and traded (see Rehrenet al., 1988; Keesmann and Moreno-Onorato, 1999; Hauptmann et al., 2003; Müller et al., 2004; Doonan et al., 2007), the Tepe Hissar study was based on only a small number of finds from an urban workshope hardly enough to postulate with confidencea regular, intentional speiss production. "

    http://www.academia.edu/1563389/Larg...e_Arisman_Iran





    You are also making huge, huge mistakes on all other points. But since you are threatening me with a ban (because you don't want to hear the truth) I don't have any urge anymore to show you the thruth. You can believe in everything what you want. But don't attack others and other professional sites when they do speak the truth...
    Last edited by Goga; 15-11-16 at 17:46.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Well, it is your OPINION against the SCIENCE. Don't be angry at me. I'm just reproducing what science is telling us. Be angry at the science that is proving you wrong.


    " Arsenical bronze was used by many societies and cultures across the globe. Firstly, the Iranian plateau, followed by the adjacent Mesopotamian area, together covering modern Iran, Iraq and Syria, has the earliest arsenical bronze metallurgy in the world, as previously mentioned. It was in use from the 4th millennium BC through to mid 2nd millennium, a period of nearly 2,000 years. There was a great deal of variation in arsenic content of artefacts throughout this period, making it impossible to say exactly how much was added deliberately and how much came about by accident.[5] Societies using arsenical bronze include the Akkadians, those of Ur, and the Amorites, all based around the Tigris and Euphrates rivers and centres of the trade networks which spread arsenical bronze across the Middle East during the Bronze Age.[5] "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenical_bronze


    " The Zagros Mountains are rich in mineral resources, so metal-workers could mix copper with arsenic or iron to harden it. The technique of making arsenical copper bronze spread to the copper-rich Caucasus by 3,700 BC. True bronze (a copper-tin alloy) did not appear until around 3000 BC. "

    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/metal.shtml


    " More recently, Thornton et al. (2009) proposed that an artificial iron-arsenic alloy, called speiss, was produced in Early Bronze Age Tepe Hissar, North Iran, presumably to be added to copper metal for the production of arsenical copper. Even though finds of speiss are relatively well-known from several EBA copper workshops, suggesting that this material was widely used and traded (see Rehrenet al., 1988; Keesmann and Moreno-Onorato, 1999; Hauptmann et al., 2003; Müller et al., 2004; Doonan et al., 2007), the Tepe Hissar study was based on only a small number of finds from an urban workshope hardly enough to postulate with confidencea regular, intentional speiss production. "

    http://www.academia.edu/1563389/Larg...e_Arisman_Iran





    You are also making huge, huge mistakes on all other points. But since you are threatening me with a ban (because you don't want to hear the truth) I don't have any urge anymore to show you the thruth. You can believe in everything what you want. But don't attack others and other professional sites when they do speak the truth...

    Good post Goga. You seem to know your stuff.
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    My results are
    25% Hunter-gatherer
    59% Farmer
    16% Metal Age invader
    0% non european
    Metal Age invader is CHG in my opinion, maybe they'll change something in the near future, I don't know. I hope they refine the non-european set, in order to see the ancestral origins of users from outside of Europe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I am surprised that most here think that the ancients used should fit modern pops and then themselves.....when the program wants to see where YOU fit in the ancient world ...............forget the modern one.
    Clearly your line did not originate where you are living now


    http://www.ancestorcentral.com/12th-...logy-saturday/


    My 8% non-european eyes can't see right

    In mesolithic, one is I*/I2, the small one?

    They have killed the chart with mixing backgroup colours and the line colours.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    " Arsenical bronze was used by many societies and cultures across the globe. Firstly, the Iranian plateau, followed by the adjacent Mesopotamian area, together covering modern Iran, Iraq and Syria, has the earliest arsenical bronze metallurgy in the world, as previously mentioned. It was in use from the 4th millennium BC through to mid 2nd millennium, a period of nearly 2,000 years. There was a great deal of variation in arsenic content of artefacts throughout this period, making it impossible to say exactly how much was added deliberately and how much came about by accident.[5] Societies using arsenical bronze include the Akkadians, those of Ur, and the Amorites, all based around the Tigris and Euphrates rivers and centres of the trade networks which spread arsenical bronze across the Middle East during the Bronze Age.[5] "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenical_bronze
    Nothing new here. All the civilisations you mention are more recent than Maykop (from 3700 BCE) and Yamna (from 3500 BCE). It is true that the Kura-Araxes culture in the Caucasus had bronze around the same time as Yamna and Maykop, but they only used bronze for arts and utensils, not weapons. That is why the Steppe PIE managed to invade both Europe and Central Asia, while the people of the Kura-Araxes culture and the Iranian plateau did not expand very far. BTW, the oldest bronze sword in the world comes from the Maykop culture and dates from c. 3250 BCE.

    - Ur started using bronze in the third millennium BCE, about 1000 years after the start of Maykop.
    - The Akkadian Empire only started from 2334 BCE, i.e. 1350 years after Maykop.
    - The Amorites only show up from c. 2050 BCE.


    " More recently, Thornton et al. (2009) proposed that an artificial iron-arsenic alloy, called speiss, was produced in Early Bronze Age Tepe Hissar, North Iran, presumably to be added to copper metal for the production of arsenical copper. Even though finds of speiss are relatively well-known from several EBA copper workshops, suggesting that this material was widely used and traded (see Rehrenet al., 1988; Keesmann and Moreno-Onorato, 1999; Hauptmann et al., 2003; Müller et al., 2004; Doonan et al., 2007), the Tepe Hissar study was based on only a small number of finds from an urban workshope hardly enough to postulate with confidencea regular, intentional speiss production. "
    I am not denying that the Caucasus and Zagros were metal-rich region that developed metallurgy earlier than almost anywhere else (except the Balkans and Anatolia). You do remember that I made a map of Copper Age diffusion three years ago, don't you? Wasn't that clear that copper metallurgy was in Iran before the Steppe? But as far as bronze weapons and bronze-age invaders are concerned, the invaders came primarily from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. The point of this discussion was to determine what admixture represents what FTDNA calls 'Metal-age invaders'. They clearly state on their website that the "Ancient European Origins page displays the percentages of autosomal DNA that you still carry from the three ancient European groups". If that is not clear enough, the Metal-age invader description states:

    "The third major wave of migration into the European continent is comprised of peoples from this Bronze Age; specifically, Nomadic herding cultures from the Eurasian steppes found north of the Black Sea. These migrants were closely related to the people of the Black Sea region known as the Yamnaya."

    I don't know what you are arguing about, or why. I have been explaining that their Metal-age admixture, despite expressly claiming to represent Yamna Steppe people, does not represent Yamna admixture at all, but rather South Asian + West Asian admixture. We end up with Middle Easterners having three times more presumably Yamna admixture than Northwest Europeans, which is utterly ridiculous.


    You are also making huge, huge mistakes on all other points. But since you are threatening me with a ban (because you don't want to hear the truth) I don't have any urge anymore to show you the thruth. You can believe in everything what you want. But don't attack others and other professional sites when they do speak the truth...
    Please, do tell. I won't ban you this time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Nothing new here. All the civilisations you mention are more recent than Maykop (from 3700 BCE) and Yamna (from 3500 BCE). It is true that the Kura-Araxes culture in the Caucasus had bronze around the same time as Yamna and Maykop, but they only used bronze for arts and utensils, not weapons. That is why the Steppe PIE managed to invade both Europe and Central Asia, while the people of the Kura-Araxes culture and the Iranian plateau did not expand very far. BTW, the oldest bronze sword in the world comes from the Maykop culture and dates from c. 3250 BCE.

    - Ur started using bronze in the third millennium BCE, about 1000 years after the start of Maykop.
    - The Akkadian Empire only started from 2334 BCE, i.e. 1350 years after Maykop.
    - The Amorites only show up from c. 2050 BCE.




    I am not denying that the Caucasus and Zagros were metal-rich region that developed metallurgy earlier than almost anywhere else (except the Balkans and Anatolia). You do remember that I made a map of Copper Age diffusion three years ago, don't you? Wasn't that clear that copper metallurgy was in Iran before the Steppe? But as far as bronze weapons and bronze-age invaders are concerned, the invaders came primarily from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. The point of this discussion was to determine what admixture represents what FTDNA calls 'Metal-age invaders'. They clearly state on their website that the "Ancient European Origins page displays the percentages of autosomal DNA that you still carry from the three ancient European groups". If that is not clear enough, the Metal-age invader description states:

    "The third major wave of migration into the European continent is comprised of peoples from this Bronze Age; specifically, Nomadic herding cultures from the Eurasian steppes found north of the Black Sea. These migrants were closely related to the people of the Black Sea region known as the Yamnaya."

    I don't know what you are arguing about, or why. I have been explaining that their Metal-age admixture, despite expressly claiming to represent Yamna Steppe people, does not represent Yamna admixture at all, but rather South Asian + West Asian admixture. We end up with Middle Easterners having three times more presumably Yamna admixture than Northwest Europeans, which is utterly ridiculous.




    Please, do tell. I won't ban you this time.
    Good post. Some interesting stuff in here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Nothing new here. All the civilisations you mention are more recent than Maykop (from 3700 BCE) and Yamna (from 3500 BCE). It is true that the Kura-Araxes culture in the Caucasus had bronze around the same time as Yamna and Maykop, but they only used bronze for arts and utensils, not weapons. That is why the Steppe PIE managed to invade both Europe and Central Asia, while the people of the Kura-Araxes culture and the Iranian plateau did not expand very far. BTW, the oldest bronze sword in the world comes from the Maykop culture and dates from c. 3250 BCE.

    - Ur started using bronze in the third millennium BCE, about 1000 years after the start of Maykop.
    - The Akkadian Empire only started from 2334 BCE, i.e. 1350 years after Maykop.
    - The Amorites only show up from c. 2050 BCE.
    Leyla-Tepe culture from the Iranian Plateau PRE-DATE Maykop culture. It has been said that Maykop folks came from Leyla Tepe.

    Agdam District settlement ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agdam_District ) of Leyla Tepe is dated from 4350 B.C until 4000 B.C


    I'm not talking about Ur, Akkadians and other Semites who came from the Levant into the southern parts of the Mesopotamia, but I'm talking about the NATIVE people of the Iranian Plateau.


    Leyle-Tepe civilization predate all of them. Maykop culture was born out of the Leyla Tepe kind of culture. There was a migration from the Iranian Plateu into the Maykop Horizon.
    Leyla-Tepe metallurgy PREDATE Caucasian metallurgy:

    " The appearance of Leilatepe tradition’s carriers in the Caucasus marked the appearance of the first local Caucasian metallurgy. This is attributed to migrants from Uruk, arriving around 4500 BCE.
    Leilatepe metalwork tradition was very sophisticated right from the beginning, and featured many bronze items. Yet later, the quality of metallurgy declined with the Kura–Araxes culture. "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture


    " The culture has also been linked to the north Ubaid period monuments, in particular, with the settlements in the Eastern Anatolia Region (Arslantepe, Coruchu-tepe, Tepechik, etc.).

    It has been suggested that
    the Leyla-Tepe were the founders of the Maykop culture. An expedition to Syria by the Russian Academy of Sciences revealed the similarity of the Maykop and Leyla-Tepe artifacts with those found recently while excavating the ancient city of Tel Khazneh I, from the 4th millennium BC. "

    Other sites belonging to the same culture in the Karabakh valley of Azerbaijan are Chinar-Tepe, Shomulu-Tepe, and Abdal-Aziz-Tepe. "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture


    Leyla-Tepe = 4350 BC. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture )
    Maykop = 3700 BC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture )
    Yamnaya = 3500 BC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture )

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't know what you are arguing about, or why.
    I'm not arguing about the SECOND stage of PIEans who invaded Europe. Those people of Yamnaya were already Indo-Europized by Maykop/Iranian Plateau folks. It has been proven that second stage IEans from Yamnaya Horizon invaded Europe. Yamnaya invaded Europe and NOT West Asia. That's why Europeans have more Yamnaya auDNA. But the point is that Yamnaya Horzion was invaded by West Asians at the first place prior to the Yamnaya adventure in Europe.
    Why would Yamnaya invade West Asia when West Asians invaded Yamnaya Horizon? That would be useless. Those Yamnaya folks invaded Europe, because they looked for something they couldn't get in West Asia.


    I'm just telling you that Yamnaya folks didn't invent bronze at all. They got it from the Iranian Plateau, could be via Maykop. Caucaso-Gedrosia auDNA is the source of the metallurgy in the Yamnaya Horzion. Maybe folks from FTDNA wanted to show only the real true Metal Age auDNA. And that auDNA is native to the Iranian Plateau. That's why people who are related to the Iranian Plateau score more of that Metal Age auDNA than Europeans. Simply because Iranian Plateau folks are direct descedants of those Iranian Plateau "metal age" inventors and have more of their DNA.

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    Yamnaya Culture was actually found by folks from Leyla-Tepe. Maykop was just a GEOGRAPHIC link (like highway) between Leyla-Tepe and Yamnaya Horizon.

    Bronze items were found in Leyla-Tepe culture native to the Iranian Plateau. Academic paper in English: http://www.academia.edu/9535165/Prob...nal_Conference

    " The appearance of Leilatepe tradition’s carriers in the Caucasus marked the appearance of the first local Caucasian metallurgy. It emerged not on the basis and not in the entrails of the Caucasian Neolithic but was brought to this region by Uruk migrants from their ancestral home (Ахундов -Махмудова 2008).

    Leilatepe carriers made the first step in the Metal Age in Caucasus, noteworthy straight in the Bronze Age. However, this step in the Southern Caucasus did not receive its further logical continuation, was interrupted without any further development and so was the Leilatepe tradition itself. There were reasons for this. Perhaps, this was connected with the movement of the Kura-Araxes carriers, who cut off all communication links of Leilatepe tradition’s carriers with their Central Asian ancestral home.
    "



    Leyla-Tepe = at least 4350 BC. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture ) = FIRST stage PIE
    Maykop = 3700 BC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture )
    Yamnaya = 3500 BC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture ) = SECOND stage PIE
    Last edited by Goga; 16-11-16 at 00:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I'm not arguing about the SECOND stage of PIEans who invaded Europe. Those people of Yamnaya were already Indo-Europized by Maykop/Iranian Plateau folks. It has been proven that second stage IEans from Yamnaya Horizon invaded Europe. Yamnaya invaded Europe and NOT West Asia. That's why Europeans have more Yamnaya auDNA. But the point is that Yamnaya Horzion was invaded by West Asians at the first place prior to the Yamnaya adventure in Europe.
    Why would Yamnaya invade West Asia when West Asians invaded Yamnaya Horizon? That would be useless. Those Yamnaya folks invaded Europe, because they looked for something they couldn't get in West Asia.


    I'm just telling you that Yamnaya folks didn't invent bronze at all. They got it from the Iranian Plateau, could be via Maykop. Caucaso-Gedrosia auDNA is the source of the metallurgy in the Yamnaya Horzion. Maybe folks from FTDNA wanted to show only the real true Metal Age auDNA. And that auDNA is native to the Iranian Plateau. That's why people who are related to the Iranian Plateau score more of that Metal Age auDNA than Europeans. Simply because Iranian Plateau folks are direct descedants of those Iranian Plateau "metal age" inventors and have more of their DNA.
    The first split from PIE happened ~4000BC in Anatolia , not europe

    If people think R1 created PIE in the west urals............then they must have migrated to anatolia in large numbers to get the FIRST split from PIE
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Leyla-Tepe culture from the Iranian Plateau PRE-DATE Maykop culture. It has been said that Maykop folks came from Leyla Tepe.

    Agdam District settlement ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agdam_District ) of Leyla Tepe is dated from 4350 B.C until 4000 B.C


    I'm not talking about Ur, Akkadians and other Semites who came from the Levant into the southern parts of the Mesopotamia, but I'm talking about the NATIVE people of the Iranian Plateau.


    Leyle-Tepe civilization predate all of them. Maykop culture was born out of the Leyla Tepe kind of culture. There was a migration from the Iranian Plateu into the Maykop Horizon.
    Leyla-Tepe metallurgy PREDATE Caucasian metallurgy:

    " The appearance of Leilatepe tradition’s carriers in the Caucasus marked the appearance of the first local Caucasian metallurgy. This is attributed to migrants from Uruk, arriving around 4500 BCE.
    Leilatepe metalwork tradition was very sophisticated right from the beginning, and featured many bronze items. Yet later, the quality of metallurgy declined with the Kura–Araxes culture. "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture


    " The culture has also been linked to the north Ubaid period monuments, in particular, with the settlements in the Eastern Anatolia Region (Arslantepe, Coruchu-tepe, Tepechik, etc.).

    It has been suggested that
    the Leyla-Tepe were the founders of the Maykop culture. An expedition to Syria by the Russian Academy of Sciences revealed the similarity of the Maykop and Leyla-Tepe artifacts with those found recently while excavating the ancient city of Tel Khazneh I, from the 4th millennium BC. "

    Other sites belonging to the same culture in the Karabakh valley of Azerbaijan are Chinar-Tepe, Shomulu-Tepe, and Abdal-Aziz-Tepe. "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture


    Leyla-Tepe = 4350 BC. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture )
    Maykop = 3700 BC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture )
    Yamnaya = 3500 BC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture )

    I know all this, and I agree with you that the Gedrosian admixture in Yamna probably came from Leyla Tepe or another culture in Azerbaijan, northwest Iran, Armenia or Kurdistan (such as Korucutepe, as suggested by Philip Kohl).

    I was the one who claimed for the first time (in 2009) that R1b-M269 people were cattle herders from that region who crossed the Caucasus and mixed with the R1a HG in the Steppe and that the resulting merger of the two groups became the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

    I also mentioned in 2012 that PIE language showed similarities with Hurrian, the ancient language of Mesopotamia, which points to a common origin of the two in the same region. I also proposed in 2013 that the Proto-Indo-Europeans possibly originated from the Uruk expansion.

    Have you not read anything I wrote about it on the forum for the last 7 years? You don't need to convince me that there was a migration across the Caucasus that brought that Gedrosia admixture. I was also the one who proposed that Gedrosia was linked with the diffusion R1b when Dodecad K12b was released in 2012 (can't find the original post, but I explained everything in detail when I made the Gedrosia admixture map and you were the first to reply to me).

    Are you trying to take credit for all my theories or did you just forget that I was the one who proposed all of them?

    That doesn't change what I am trying to explain here, which is that bronze was only used for the first time on a regular basis deserving to be called 'Bronze Age' in Maykop, was used for military purpose by Maykop and Yamna people and their descendants, and that they were the only real invaders. You need a military elements and battles to be able to invade territories. Neolithic farmers did not invade Europe. They just moved a few kilometres further per year, with hunter-gatherers living side by side. There is no evidence that Leyla Tepe or other South Caucasian people invaded the Steppe. They just migrated and blended with the locals. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I would be very interested to read about it.

    You are also forgetting something when you claim that people from the Iranian plateau were the first metal-age invaders. Leyla Tepe was in Azerbaijan, and if they descend from Uruk, the original PIE would actually be Mesopotamian. Neither of them are from the Zagros or the Iranian plateau as you claim. Azerbaijan is mostly lowland located between the North and South Caucasus, and Leyla Tepe was in the lowland, not even in the mountainous area that abut the country. So it's a bit strange when you write that "Leyla-Tepe metallurgy PREDATE Caucasian metallurgy". Leyla Tepe is Caucasian metallurgy, just like Maykop! Perhaps our argument is about mainly about geography and the definition of 'invasion'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Yamnaya Culture was actually found by folks from Leyla-Tepe. Maykop was just a GEOGRAPHIC link (like highway) between Leyla-Tepe and Yamnaya Horizon.

    Bronze items were found in Leyla-Tepe culture native to the Iranian Plateau. Academic paper in English: http://www.academia.edu/9535165/Prob...nal_Conference

    " The appearance of Leilatepe tradition’s carriers in the Caucasus marked the appearance of the first local Caucasian metallurgy. It emerged not on the basis and not in the entrails of the Caucasian Neolithic but was brought to this region by Uruk migrants from their ancestral home (Ахундов -Махмудова 2008).

    Leilatepe carriers made the first step in the Metal Age in Caucasus, noteworthy straight in the Bronze Age. However, this step in the Southern Caucasus did not receive its further logical continuation, was interrupted without any further development and so was the Leilatepe tradition itself. There were reasons for this. Perhaps, this was connected with the movement of the Kura-Araxes carriers, who cut off all communication links of Leilatepe tradition’s carriers with their Central Asian ancestral home.
    "
    I haven't had time to read this paper yet, but if there is enough evidence that Leyla Tepe was founded by Uruk migrants, and that indeed Leyla Tepe was the source of Maykop, then it would confirm my suggestion that Uruk people were R1b-M269 people and the first PIE. Why is it so important for you to say that Leyla Tepe was first, and not Uruk or an even earlier culture. People always descend from earlier people. I placed the origin of R1b1 (P25) in Neolithic northern Mesopotamia/eastern Anatolia because this was where cattle were first domesticated, and that both R1b-V88 in Africa and R1b-M269 in Yamna were cattle herders. But cattle domestication happened 6000 years before Uruk. That's longer than from the onset of Maykop or Yamna until now! So, if PIE originated with R1b people, then when do you place its origin on the timeline? The conscensus among linguists is that we only start talking about a true PIE language in the Steppe because PIE includes borrowings from Proto-Uralic language (in addition to similarities with Hurrian and loanwords from Caucasian languages), which could only have happened in the Steppe. So Uruk and Leyla Tepe could have been ancestral to PIE, but they were not yet PIE. An analogy would be to say that the Anglo-Saxons did not colonise North America, but were ancestral to the English who did. Of course in both cases, the older population mixed with others (Leyla Tepe with EHG in the Steppe; the Anglo-Saxons with Romano-Britons, then Danes and Normans) before getting the final population (Proto-Indo-European and English in each part of the analogy).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I haven't had time to read this paper yet, but if there is enough evidence that Leyla Tepe was founded by Uruk migrants, and that indeed Leyla Tepe was the source of Maykop, then it would confirm my suggestion that Uruk people were R1b-M269 people and the first PIE. Why is it so important for you to say that Leyla Tepe was first, and not Uruk or an even earlier culture. People always descend from earlier people. I placed the origin of R1b1 (P25) in Neolithic northern Mesopotamia/eastern Anatolia because this was where cattle were first domesticated, and that both R1b-V88 in Africa and R1b-M269 in Yamna were cattle herders. But cattle domestication happened 6000 years before Uruk. That's longer than from the onset of Maykop or Yamna until now! So, if PIE originated with R1b people, then when do you place its origin on the timeline? The conscensus among linguists is that we only start talking about a true PIE language in the Steppe because PIE includes borrowings from Proto-Uralic language (in addition to similarities with Hurrian and loanwords from Caucasian languages), which could only have happened in the Steppe. So Uruk and Leyla Tepe could have been ancestral to PIE, but they were not yet PIE. An analogy would be to say that the Anglo-Saxons did not colonise North America, but were ancestral to the English who did. Of course in both cases, the older population mixed with others (Leyla Tepe with EHG in the Steppe; the Anglo-Saxons with Romano-Britons, then Danes and Normans) before getting the final population (Proto-Indo-European and English in each part of the analogy).
    watch this, I think it is realy interesting

    Armenia BA Steppe CA & BA.jpg



    there are 3 Kvalynsk genomes which you can find in above chart

    Samara Eneolithic Russia Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0122/SVP 35] M 4700-4000 BC R1b1 M415 H2a1 Mathieson 2015
    Samara Eneolithic Russia Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0433/SVP 46] M 4700-4000 BC R1a1 M459 U5a1i Mathieson 2015
    Samara Eneolithic Russia Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0434/SVP 47] M 4700-4000 BC Q1a F2676 U4a2 or U4d Mathieson 2015

    2 are mainly EHG (blue) with some WHG (navy blue), basically the same like the Karelia and Samara HG (also on the chart)
    they have no teal (CHG)

    they are R1a1 and Q1a and mtDNA U4 and U5, U4 and U5 are WHG in origin

    the 3rd has 22 % teal (CHG), 71 % EHG and no WHG
    he is a newcomer
    he is R1b1 and mtDNA H2a1, H2a1 is CHG in origin
    he may have been pré-R1b-V88 (but very early V88 then, spliting from the main V88 branch ca 16-17 ka)

    the Yamnaya (Pit Grace on the chart) and Afanasievo are a mixture of mainly this newcomer and some the 2 others
    Yamnaya and Afanasievo have about 16 % CHG, 82 % EHG and only 1 % WHG

    Yamnaya and Afanasievo people probably arrived in the Volga area during Khvalynsk period.
    That is way before Maykop.
    Last edited by bicicleur; 16-11-16 at 10:26.

  20. #45
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I was the one who claimed for the first time (in 2009) that R1b-M269 people were cattle herders from that region who crossed the Caucasus and mixed with the R1a HG in the Steppe and that the resulting merger of the two groups became the Proto-Indo-Europeans.
    They found R1a1 in the Baikal region (just north of Mongolia) from the Early Neolithicera (5500 BC), VERY far away from Europe. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...891#post494891

    That means that R1a was already in Central Asia BEFORE Yamnaya! It predate let say Sintashta culture by 3500 years!

    R1a in Iran, South Central Asia predate Yamnaya by thousands of years. That means that R1a-Z93 in NATIVE to Iran/SouthCentral Asia.

    R1a1 entered the Steppes from IRAN, since they also found some eNeolithic P* in Iran.


    So, what am I trying to say??

    Also R1a1 has to be linked to Gedrosia auDNA. Gedrosia = at least R1 (R1a & R1b) and R2 ...


    R2 and R1 (R1a & R1b) all has to be linked with Gedrosia auDNA. Gedrosia in the Steppes was not ONLY from R1b but also from R1a !!!

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    Metal Age Invader - 63%
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    Whatever Metal Age invader is, it is not Yamnaya. It is basically a Caucasian reference population. There is no way that it should be higher in Southern Euros, Ashkenazi jews, and other Middle Eastern populations, than central European populations that were affected by any population movements in northern Europe.

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    I am mostly Czech.

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    Mine
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    Hey Syky the Czech guy we're pretty damn close

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    For whatever this is worth. I keep getting SSA hits between .2 and 1.3 percent on calculators so I'm not sure how that fits this strange way of representing our DNA. The Youtube videos are hilarious if you want a laugh. "15 percent of my ancestors were metal smiths" is a line i heard.

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