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Thread: Ancient y Dna from Lake Baikal Siberia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Ah my poor Goga, how much you still have to learn. They found R1a1-M17 (aka M198), which according to Yfull arose 14,000 years ago. We have known since the testing of the Ma'lta boy that Y-haplogroup R was in Siberia 23,000 years ago, and that the migration of R to Europe is linked to the ANE admixture (which is modelled on the Ma'lta genome). It was also confirmed that both R1a and R1b were present in Palaeolithic and Mesolithic Russia (16,500-year-old R1b* at Afontova Gora; 8,500 year-old R1a1-M17 in Karelia; 7,500 year-old R1b1a-P297 in Samara) and even further west (14,000 year-old R1b* at Villabruna in Italy). This is R1a1-M17 a Palaeolithic Northeast European and Siberian lineage, not yet the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware R1a1a-M417, nor the later Sintashta R1a1a1b2-Z93. You don't seem to have any sense of phylogenetic chronology. Furthermore you do not seem to grasp that finding R1a Palaeolithic hunter-gathers in one place does not preclude them from living somewhere else too. Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers were highly mobile and roamed over huge areas in search of game (like mammoths), especially in places in Siberia were seasonal migrations would have been important. As tribes grew in size, they split and moved in different directions so as not to compete over resources. That's completely normal that they ended scattered over all Europe and North Asia.

    The R1a1-M17, Q1a, and C3 identified in EN Lake Baikal in this new study could all have been descendants of Siberian Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers. The Neolithic newcomers could be K (or more likely P1). Out of 59 samples, only two belonged to R1a, and they were among the most recent, confirming that they were just a small minority of newcomers to the region. The vast majority of paternal lineages belonged to K* or Q1a. All the mtDNA lineages were Mongoloid, except for some Palaeolithic East European U5a at Shamanka II and at the Lokomotiv cemetery where R1a1-M17 was found (see page 30). If anything that proves beyond doubt that R1a1-M17 is of East European origin, and that R1* or R1a* moved from Siberia to Europe before the end of the last glaciation. No other Y-DNA lineage could have brought U5a from Europe to the Lake Baikal region, and there is no doubt at all that U5a is European in origin.
    That R1b from Afontova Gora was a mtDNA haplogroup, not a Y-DNA one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    And bye bye to the theories that R1a was proto-Indo-European. Only some much-later R1a haplogroups could be identified with Indo-Europeans.
    Man, to be IE, you do not have to be in Europe.
    You could be IE in Gedrosia too, really, even if
    that absurd possibility would be true, people still
    would be the same people, not different.

    And not R1a, but whole R1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    What do yo mean by 'East'? Y-DNA hg. K seems to be Caucasoid (WEST Eurasian), since it is related to J (J2a) and I (I1b & I2a). K was ancestral to L & T. L & T are native to the Iranian Plateau (SouthCentral Asia). So, K entered Baikal, like R1a1, also from the SouthWEST. K & R1a1 migrated together...


    this map exactly matches my theory, but only for the R1a1, not the K
    the R1a and R1b tribes originated some 15 ka along the upstream areas of Oxus and Jaxartes rivers
    but only a few went to Bajkal
    some went downstream Oxus and Jaxartes and arrived in Europe as EHG
    others went west to NW Iran / Transcaucasia / Anatolia, while R2 arrived more south, in Lurestan
    some of them in NW Iran / Transcaucasia / Anatolia crossed Caucasus 6.7 ka and joined their EHG brothers and formed Khvalynsk culture, the origin of IE

    but I'm sorry Goga, I don't believe at all IE expanded from Iran, it was from the Khvalynsk area

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I haven't had time to read the full paper, but I am wondering which SNP's the author tested. It seems that he is using a rather antiquated phylogeny, still referring to C3 for C-M217, a nomenclature last seen in the 2013 ISOGG tree. Since 2014 it's been called C2. If so, that K* could really be K2b2a, which is the same as haplogroup P1 (M45). This P1 is common from Mongolia to Northeast Siberia, and is found at lower frequencies in the Caucasus, Iran, India, Tibet and Southeast Asia.

    Haplogroup P1 was found in Early Neolithic Iran (8000-7700 BCE) by Lazaridis at al. 2016. Since the oldest clades of P1 are found around the Caucasus and Iran, and that these K (P1?) tribes seem to be the ones who brought pottery to the Lake Baikal region, I would think that they originated around the Caucasus or Iran. Annoyingly some mtDNA samples are just listed as others, with no indication of what they could be. I wouldn't be surprised to find mt-haplogroup HV, N1a, N1b, W and/or X, which are all found in modern Altaians and Caucasians alike.
    the author mentions K, not tested for subclades and K*, tested for subclades, and he indicates as K-M9

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    but I'm sorry Goga, I don't believe at all IE expanded from Iran, it was from the Khvalynsk area
    You are free to believe what you want.

    Most established scientists don't agree with you. Khvalynsk has NOTHING to do with Indo-Europeans. According to them the ORIGIN of the European Indo-Europeans is in the Yamnaya Horizon.
    But the SECOND stage IEan Yamnaya culture was heavily influenced by people from the Iranian Plateau. Those Iranian people were the FIRST stage proto-IEans. This is an established fact!


    Khvalynsk culture was way to much URALIC aka 'Mongoloid' (Y-DNA hg. N1c1, Q etc.). Ancient Indo-Europeans were NOT 'URALIC', Finno-Ugric or whatever , lol.

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    To all theories of IE ( PIE ) be it that originated in western Urals, yamna or Gedrosia , the facts are, the first split from PIE occurred around 4000BC in Anatolia...........whatever theory you have needs to fit with a major migration to bring PIE into Anatolia. If you can fit the first split into your theory, then ok, if not , your theory fails.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Is there any possibility for Lake Baikal Neolithic green pottery people to move into Anatolia 4,000bc w/ lE language? And R1a1 and Q1a2 moved Khvalynsk culture w/ language also.


    -R1a1 and Q1a2 continued to stay in Altai area:
    Hollard et al., Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age, In the same way, the patrilineal gene pool revealed the presence of different haplogroups (Q1a2a1-L54, R1a1a1b2-Z93 and C)
    Anthrologist C. Brace also mentioned that mongol bronze crania specimen be close to Native american:
    Mongolia is a long way east of any of the other samples used, but it has previously been shown that the Mongolian Bronze Age sample is unrelated to modern Mongols and has more in common with prehistoric Europeans and the Native Americans of the United States-Canada border.
    a. Scythian spoke in IndoEuropean, who were Altai natives speaking in IndoEuropean:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...183#post494183

    The Scythian had also Q1a2 culture:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...304#post491304

    b. 1,600bc Q1a2 might enter China shang dynasty with Indo-European Language. Hg R people never went there.
    It is known that the Chinese borrowed a number of words dealing with wheels and chariots from Indo-European sources. Archeology tells us that the art of making spoked wheels, and thus chariots light enough to be drawn by horses, was developed at the western end of Asia, around the southern Urals, in the third and early second millennia B.C. We do not know for certain that the mummy people used chariots, but given the known facts, it seems likely that they did, and that they transmitted this know-how to the Shan tribe of Chinese. There is no doubt that a sizable chunk of ancient Chinese vocabulary came from Indo-European—not only to do with chariotry, but also in architecture, divination, healing and other matters.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...564#post493564
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...na-and-Baltics

    -R1b
    a.Afanasievo culture(3,500bc) predated Yamna(3,300bc) by David Anthony. They were related with Botai horse domestication and Torchain. It did not make sense that the Repin people brought botai culture into Afanasievo.

    b. If R1b wiped out natives in yamna, and came to afanasievo, it was impossible for them to live together with Okunevo Indian(maybe Q1a2), who were altai natives for 22,000y to keep malta boy blood.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...0bc-R1a-or-R1b


    c. And also if kurgan was created in the west, it is difficult to explain why tons of mounds(kurgan) are in north America.
    http://www.wisconsinmounds.com/India...arkStPaul.html
    Last edited by johen; 22-11-16 at 20:09.

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    And Q1a2 culture of hairstyle survived for so and so long time. Even in Indo-Aryan, west scythian, east scythian, avar, hun, magyar, and etcmaybe yamna people also had one of those hair style. How can the styles be kept in central asia for thousand and thousand years, if west people dominated central asia from Afanasievo?http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...286#post494286http://www.eliwhitney.org/7/workshop...odland-villagehttp://www.native-languages.org/hair.htm
    Last edited by johen; 25-11-16 at 05:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    He did test for N-TAT, leaving at least the four possibilities I listed for N. As far as I see none of the 13 SNP's he tested belonged to L or T.
    you're right, I drew some conclusions a bit to fast

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    c. And also if kurgan was created in the west, it is difficult to explain why tons of mounds(kurgan) are in north America.
    http://www.wisconsinmounds.com/India...arkStPaul.html
    Well, aren't Kurgans really just piles of dirt when it comes down to it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    But K was related to I, J, T & L. Where can we find I, J, T and L?

    Not sure about I (I1 & I2 seems to be antive to Europe), but J1, J2, T & L are native to the Zagros Mountains (J1 & J2) & Iranian Plateau (T & L).


    They found K together with R1a1. So it seems that K migrated TOGETHER with R1a into Baikal. Good evidence that R1a1 is from Iran!!!
    No...K is not related to IJ. In fact these are mutually exclusive. You could argue LMNOPQRST are more closely related to K, since they all descend from him, but he has absolutely nothing to do with I or J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    No...K is not related to IJ. In fact these are mutually exclusive.
    That's exactly what I've tried to explain to my siblings at the last family gathering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    No...K is not related to IJ. In fact these are mutually exclusive. You could argue LMNOPQRST are more closely related to K, since they all descend from him, but he has absolutely nothing to do with I or J.
    he is says that K, I and J where once in a union

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_IJK

    look at the chart in link by, M Van Oven ...................the person that does the Y trees for everyone

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Well, aren't Kurgans really just piles of dirt when it comes down to it?
    Right, PIE kurgan mounds are very specific.

    1. American Indian mounds had no corded pottery which was found in Botai also, starting from Lake Baikal. There is opinion that the corded type started from Balkan area.


    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.ca...y-related.html

    And also the mound had no pointed pottery like comb ware which started from Liao area thru lake baikal to Finland.

    2. However, grave mounds where body was buried in crouched/fetal position, covered in red-ocher


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