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Thread: Ancient y Dna from Lake Baikal Siberia

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Ancient y Dna from Lake Baikal Siberia

    The big take away seems to be that there is discontinuity between the early Neolithic and the late Neolithic Bronze Age, with a 1500 year gap.

    See N.M. Moussa et al
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...52409X16306927

    "Highlights

    •Ancient DNA extracted from human remains belonging to Early Neolithic and Late Neolithic-Early Bronze Age periods in Lake Baikal area of Siberia.
    •Y-chromosomal haplogroup results suggest that the Early Neolithic and the Late Neolithic-Early Bronze Age populations might be discontinuous.
    •Differences in the Y-chromosomal signatures between the EN and LN-EBA populations were detected.
    •The differences suggest displacement of males in Baikal population during EN and replacement by a genetically different population during LN-EBA.
    •The Y-chromosomal haplogroups of the prehistoric Baikal population are represented in the contemporary Siberian populations.


    Abstract

    The Lake Baikal region of Siberia was home to two temporally distinct populations from Early Neolithic, EN (7500–7000 cal BP) to Late Neolithic-Early Bronze Age, LN-EBA (5570–3725 cal BP). The EN group was separated from the LN-EBA group by a ~ 1500-year gap (hiatus), and during this hiatus no human remains have been recovered from the Lake Baikal area. Examination of the paternal lineage through Y-chromosomal polymorphisms is a novel approach to BAP and will facilitate the assessment of the paternal continuities and/or discontinuities within and between the EN and the LN-EBA groups, and complement the previously examined maternal data. Several new ancient DNA extraction and PCR amplification techniques were optimized to address the technical challenges during sample analysis. Each sample was extracted twice in duplicate on different occasions to authenticate the results. Thirteen Y-chromosomal Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) markers were examined via the SNaPshot multiplex PCR reaction to determine Y-chromosomal haplogroups of males. Results have been obtained from 16 males from the EN cemeteries Lokomotiv and Shamanka II representing haplogroups K, R1a1 and C3, and 20 males from the LN-EBA Ust'-Ida and Kurma XI cemeteries representing haplogroups Q, K and unidentified SNP (L914). For those males belonging to haplogroup Q, further experiments were obtained to examine sub-haplogroups of Q, and the results showed that those males belong to sub-haplogroup Q1a3. The paternal Y-chromosome results suggest a discontinuity between the EN and LN-EBA populations. The significance of this research lies on the utility of DNA analysis in making inferences about the pre-historic social structure."

    Unfortunately, everything else is behind a pay wall.


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    there is Y-DNA R1a1a and mtDNA U5 in EN Bajkal
    there is a lot of Y-DNA K* in EN, probably the founder tribe of the Kitoi culture, a tribe now extinct

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The big take away seems to be that there is discontinuity between the early Neolithic and the late Neolithic Bronze Age, with a 1500 year gap.

    See N.M. Moussa et al
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...52409X16306927

    "Highlights

    •Ancient DNA extracted from human remains belonging to Early Neolithic and Late Neolithic-Early Bronze Age periods in Lake Baikal area of Siberia.
    Perhaps we should mention that both groups are hunter-gatherers and not farmers, even though we are talking about Neolithic time frame.

    The Lake Baikal region of Siberia was home to two temporally distinct populations from Early Neolithic, EN (7500–7000 cal BP) to Late Neolithic-Early Bronze Age, LN-EBA (5570–3725 cal BP). The EN group was separated from the LN-EBA group by a ~ 1500-year gap (hiatus),
    Did they mention what kind of disaster they think had happened? Climate or plague?



    and during this hiatus no human remains have been recovered from the Lake Baikal area. Examination of the paternal lineage through Y-chromosomal polymorphisms is a novel approach to BAP and will facilitate the assessment of the paternal continuities and/or discontinuities within and between the EN and the LN-EBA groups, and complement the previously examined maternal data. Several new ancient DNA extraction and PCR amplification techniques were optimized to address the technical challenges during sample analysis. Each sample was extracted twice in duplicate on different occasions to authenticate the results. Thirteen Y-chromosomal Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) markers were examined via the SNaPshot multiplex PCR reaction to determine Y-chromosomal haplogroups of males. Results have been obtained from 16 males from the EN cemeteries Lokomotiv and Shamanka II representing haplogroups K, R1a1 and C3, and 20 males from the LN-EBA Ust'-Ida and Kurma XI cemeteries representing haplogroups Q, K and unidentified SNP (L914). For those males belonging to haplogroup Q,
    It is surprising how genetically uniform newcomer males are. Although women are exactly same haplogroups but in different proportions than befor. What is this telling us about their past or culture? Dominant male takes all?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Any of you guys have any ideas on what the ydna "K" found there could be?

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    Huh? Baikal? Baikal has been said to be URHEIMANT of the Turkic tribes. Baikal is much closer to China than to the eastern Europe or even the Iranian Plateau. Iran is the closer proxy to Baikal than Europe. R1a1 in Baikal has to be from Iran, bacause it can't be that R1a in Iran is from Baikal (the Steppes). Since there are not many 'Mongoloid' Y-DNA haplogroups like C3 and Q1a3 in Iran nowadays. If R1a1 enetered the Iranian Plateau from the Steppes, Iran would be have much, much more C3 and Q1a3 haplogroups, since all those haplogroups heavily mixed with R1a1 in the Steppes. So, R1a in Baikal is most likely from the eastern Iranian Plateau..

    Baikal.jpg


    Last edited by Goga; 20-11-16 at 01:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It is surprising how genetically uniform newcomer males are.
    Totally not surprising in normal world.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Any of you guys have any ideas on what the ydna "K" found there could be?
    Iranian Plateau or South Central Asia (Tajikistan area). K is ancestral to L and T.

    K is related to IJ (ancestral to I & J). IJK was ancestral to hg. I, J and K. IJK was native to West Asia. That there is K and R1a1 in Baikal is a VERY good indication that R1a1 is from Iran, because K is definely from the Iranian Plateau.


    So, 'K' could enter Baikal together with 'R1a1' from Iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Any of you guys have any ideas on what the ydna "K" found there could be?
    it is not just K, it is K*, they mean Kx(LT, K2)
    this does not exist any more today
    it is an extinct tribe

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it is not just K, it is K*, they mean Kx(LT, K2)
    this does not exist any more today
    it is an extinct tribe
    But K was related to I, J, T & L. Where can we find I, J, T and L?

    Not sure about I (I1 & I2 seems to be antive to Europe), but J1, J2, T & L are native to the Zagros Mountains (J1 & J2) & Iranian Plateau (T & L).


    They found K together with R1a1. So it seems that K migrated TOGETHER with R1a into Baikal. Good evidence that R1a1 is from Iran!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    But K was related to I, J, T & L. Where can we find I, J, T and L?

    Not sure about I (I1 & I2 seems to be antive to Europe), but J1, J2, T & L are native to the Zagros Mountains (J1 & J2) & Iranian Plateau (T & L).


    They found K together with R1a1. So it seems that K migrated TOGETHER with R1a into Baikal. Good evidence that R1a1 is from Iran!!!
    yes, R1a1 came from west, but K* is the founder of the tribe, and he came with pottery, it means he came from east
    just like the mtDNA which is mostly eastern and some western

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, R1a1 came from west, but K* is the founder of the tribe, and he came with pottery, it means he came from east
    just like the mtDNA which is mostly eastern and some western
    What do yo mean by 'East'? Y-DNA hg. K seems to be Caucasoid (WEST Eurasian), since it is related to J (J2a) and I (I1b & I2a). K was ancestral to L & T. L & T are native to the Iranian Plateau (SouthCentral Asia). So, K entered Baikal, like R1a1, also from the SouthWEST. K & R1a1 migrated together...



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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Btw, those R1a1 samples predate PIE. So this is the last HUGE nail in the coffin of those who say that R1a migrated from the eastern Europe into Central Asia with Indo-Europeans (Indo-Iranians).


    That R1a1 is from "7500–7000 cal BP" !!!

    7500-7000 cal BP = 5500 BC. That's thousands of years before Yamnaya Horizon . So, there was already R1a1 in Baikal area, just north of Mongolia, thousands of years before Yamnaya culture. I'm sure it was from Iran, since R1a is evolved in Iran. Since they also found hg. P in Early Neolithic eastern Iranian Plateau.


    So say goodbye to the so called Potlavka/Sintashta (2000 BC) migation theory into east of the internet losers...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Btw, those R1a1 samples predate PIE. So this is the last HUGE nail in the coffin of those who say that R1a migrated from the eastern Europe into Central Asia with Indo-Europeans (Indo-Iranians).


    That R1a1 is from "7500–7000 cal BP" !!!

    7500-7000 cal BP = 5500 BC. That's thousands of years before Yamnaya Horizon . So, there was already R1a1 in Baikal area, just north of Mongolia, thousands of years before Yamnaya culture. I'm sure it was from Iran, since R1a is evolved in Iran. Since they also found hg. P in Early Neolithic eastern Iranian Plateau.


    So say goodbye to the so called Potlavka/Sintashta (2000 BC) migation theory into east of the internet losers...
    this R1a1a clan is 14000 years old, they have nothing to do with PIE

    PIE is R1b-M269, R1b-M473 and R1a1a1-M417 only, and it starts only 6500 years ago

    you keep on making the same mistake

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    It's an interesting study, but I don't understand why you relate aDNA from 7000ybp to a migration from 4000ybp. All the study says is they found R1a-M17 in that Baikal area. Yfull has a Tmrca of 8500ybp for this clade so there's no contradiction there. Either these R1a-M17's moved here from another 'R1a homeland', wherever that may be, or this was part of the homeland and part of R1a later moved west where they interacted with Yamnaya, took part in corded ware expansion and maybe eventually the Sintashta migration.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Btw, those R1a1 samples predate PIE. So this is the last HUGE nail in the coffin of those who say that R1a migrated from the eastern Europe into Central Asia with Indo-Europeans (Indo-Iranians).


    That R1a1 is from "7500–7000 cal BP" !!!

    7500-7000 cal BP = 5500 BC. That's thousands of years before Yamnaya Horizon . So, there was already R1a1 in Baikal area, just north of Mongolia, thousands of years before Yamnaya culture. I'm sure it was from Iran, since R1a is evolved in Iran. Since they also found hg. P in Early Neolithic eastern Iranian Plateau.


    So say goodbye to the so called Potlavka/Sintashta (2000 BC) migation theory into east of the internet losers...
    Ah my poor Goga, how much you still have to learn. They found R1a1-M17 (aka M198), which according to Yfull arose 14,000 years ago. We have known since the testing of the Ma'lta boy that Y-haplogroup R was in Siberia 23,000 years ago, and that the migration of R to Europe is linked to the ANE admixture (which is modelled on the Ma'lta genome). It was also confirmed that both R1a and R1b were present in Palaeolithic and Mesolithic Russia (16,500-year-old R1b* at Afontova Gora; 8,500 year-old R1a1-M17 in Karelia; 7,500 year-old R1b1a-P297 in Samara) and even further west (14,000 year-old R1b* at Villabruna in Italy). This is R1a1-M17 a Palaeolithic Northeast European and Siberian lineage, not yet the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware R1a1a-M417, nor the later Sintashta R1a1a1b2-Z93. You don't seem to have any sense of phylogenetic chronology. Furthermore you do not seem to grasp that finding R1a Palaeolithic hunter-gathers in one place does not preclude them from living somewhere else too. Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers were highly mobile and roamed over huge areas in search of game (like mammoths), especially in places in Siberia were seasonal migrations would have been important. As tribes grew in size, they split and moved in different directions so as not to compete over resources. That's completely normal that they ended scattered over all Europe and North Asia.

    The R1a1-M17, Q1a, and C3 identified in EN Lake Baikal in this new study could all have been descendants of Siberian Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers. The Neolithic newcomers could be K (or more likely P1). Out of 59 samples, only two belonged to R1a, and they were among the most recent, confirming that they were just a small minority of newcomers to the region. The vast majority of paternal lineages belonged to K* or Q1a. All the mtDNA lineages were Mongoloid, except for some Palaeolithic East European U5a at Shamanka II and at the Lokomotiv cemetery where R1a1-M17 was found (see page 30). If anything that proves beyond doubt that R1a1-M17 is of East European origin, and that R1* or R1a* moved from Siberia to Europe before the end of the last glaciation. No other Y-DNA lineage could have brought U5a from Europe to the Lake Baikal region, and there is no doubt at all that U5a is European in origin.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Any of you guys have any ideas on what the ydna "K" found there could be?
    I haven't had time to read the full paper, but I am wondering which SNP's the author tested. It seems that he is using a rather antiquated phylogeny, still referring to C3 for C-M217, a nomenclature last seen in the 2013 ISOGG tree. Since 2014 it's been called C2. If so, that K* could really be K2b2a, which is the same as haplogroup P1 (M45). This P1 is common from Mongolia to Northeast Siberia, and is found at lower frequencies in the Caucasus, Iran, India, Tibet and Southeast Asia.

    Haplogroup P1 was found in Early Neolithic Iran (8000-7700 BCE) by Lazaridis at al. 2016. Since the oldest clades of P1 are found around the Caucasus and Iran, and that these K (P1?) tribes seem to be the ones who brought pottery to the Lake Baikal region, I would think that they originated around the Caucasus or Iran. Annoyingly some mtDNA samples are just listed as others, with no indication of what they could be. I wouldn't be surprised to find mt-haplogroup HV, N1a, N1b, W and/or X, which are all found in modern Altaians and Caucasians alike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    It's an interesting study, but I don't understand why you relate aDNA from 7000ybp to a migration from 4000ybp. All the study says is they found R1a-M17 in that Baikal area. Yfull has a Tmrca of 8500ybp for this clade so there's no contradiction there. Either these R1a-M17's moved here from another 'R1a homeland', wherever that may be, or this was part of the homeland and part of R1a later moved west where they interacted with Yamnaya, took part in corded ware expansion and maybe eventually the Sintashta migration.
    indeed Yfull gives a split 8500 ka, but they have only 2 branches, a European and a SW Asian, the east Siberian branch is not represented in Yfull, which means they could have split much earlier

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I haven't had time to read the full paper, but I am wondering which SNP's the author tested. It seems that he is using a rather antiquated phylogeny, still referring to C3 for C-M217, a nomenclature last seen in the 2013 ISOGG tree. Since 2014 it's been called C2. If so, that K* could really be K2b2a, which is the same as haplogroup P1 (M45). This P1 is common from Mongolia to Northeast Siberia, and is found at lower frequencies in the Caucasus, Iran, India, Tibet and Southeast Asia.

    Haplogroup P1 was found in Early Neolithic Iran (8000-7700 BCE) by Lazaridis at al. 2016. Since the oldest clades of P1 are found around the Caucasus and Iran, and that these K (P1?) tribes seem to be the ones who brought pottery to the Lake Baikal region, I would think that they originated around the Caucasus or Iran. Annoyingly some mtDNA samples are just listed as others, with no indication of what they could be. I wouldn't be surprised to find mt-haplogroup HV, N1a, N1b, W and/or X, which are all found in modern Altaians and Caucasians alike.
    somewher I've read it is K-M9, that is this one

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/K/

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    somewher I've read it is K-M9, that is this one

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/K/
    K-M9 is just K*. It means that the author didn't test for SNP's downstream. I seriously doubt that it is just K*.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    K-M9 is just K*. It means that the author didn't test for SNP's downstream. I seriously doubt that it is just K*.
    Looking at the SNP's he's tested at least the following possibilities are still open:
    -LT
    -M
    -S
    -K2c
    -K2d
    -K-M2335*
    -N-L666
    -N-F2905
    -N-Y6503

  22. #22
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Ah my poor Goga, how much you still have to learn. They found R1a1-M17 (aka M198), which according to Yfull arose 14,000 years ago. We have known since the testing of the Ma'lta boy that Y-haplogroup R was in Siberia 23,000 years ago, and that the migration of R to Europe is linked to the ANE admixture (which is modelled on the Ma'lta genome). It was also confirmed that both R1a and R1b were present in Palaeolithic and Mesolithic Russia (16,500-year-old R1b* at Afontova Gora; 8,500 year-old R1a1-M17 in Karelia; 7,500 year-old R1b1a-P297 in Samara) and even further west (14,000 year-old R1b* at Villabruna in Italy). This is R1a1-M17 a Palaeolithic Northeast European and Siberian lineage, not yet the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware R1a1a-M417, nor the later Sintashta R1a1a1b2-Z93. You don't seem to have any sense of phylogenetic chronology. Furthermore you do not seem to grasp that finding R1a Palaeolithic hunter-gathers in one place does not preclude them from living somewhere else too. Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers were highly mobile and roamed over huge areas in search of game (like mammoths), especially in places in Siberia were seasonal migrations would have been important. As tribes grew in size, they split and moved in different directions so as not to compete over resources. That's completely normal that they ended scattered over all Europe and North Asia.
    Yeah, but you don't get my point. That mean that R1a arose in Iran, like many recent academic papers are saying. They found very ancient R1a outside Europe, in this part of the world. This means that it could be that there was no migration from northwestern Eurasia into southeastern Eurasia. So, we can now link R1a also to a Gedrosia component. Areas in southcentral Asia and Northern India are full of R1a and in that part of the world there are huge amounts of Gedrosia.

    Original R1b = Gedrosia
    Original R1a = Gedrosia

    Where is your evidence now that R1a1a-M417 arose in Europe??? These findings make possible that there could be a migration of M417 from southcentral Asia into the Steppes, because we have evidence now that R1a in Asia is also very ancient.

    It is actually most likely that R1a-M417 entered Europe from Central Asia.


    And bye bye to the theories that R1a was proto-Indo-European. Only some much-later R1a haplogroups could be identified with Indo-Europeans.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Looking at the SNP's he's tested at least the following possibilities are still open:
    -LT
    -M
    -S
    -K2c
    -K2d
    -K-M2335*
    -N-L666
    -N-F2905
    -N-Y6503
    I doubt that the author didn't test at least for haplogroups L, N and T. The others are found mostly in Melanesia, so it's safe to rule them out.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I doubt that the author didn't test at least for haplogroups L, N and T. The others are found mostly in Melanesia, so it's safe to rule them out.
    He did test for N-TAT, leaving at least the four possibilities I listed for N. As far as I see none of the 13 SNP's he tested belonged to L or T.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    He did test for N-TAT, leaving at least the four possibilities I listed for N. As far as I see none of the 13 SNP's he tested belonged to L or T.
    That's not very professional of him to leave out top-level haplogroups. For all we know the various K* reported could belong to Y-haplogroups N and/or P1, which both represent a sizeable percentage of the Y-DNA in the region today. While P1 was confirmed in Early Neolithic Iran, N*, N1 and N1c were found in Ealy Neolithic Manchuria and are linked with the diffusion of pottery across Siberia until the eastern Baltic. That's one of the top candidates as Neolithic newcomers to the Baikal region. How could the author not test it? It's as if somewhere studied Yamna Y-DNA and 'forgot' to test for haplogroup R and its subclades. Unbelievable!
    Last edited by Maciamo; 20-11-16 at 15:16.

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