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Thread: teal CHG component in Yamna and Afanasievo arrived during Khvalynsk period

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    teal CHG component in Yamna and Afanasievo arrived during Khvalynsk period

    check this, I think it is realy interesting





    there are 3 Khvalynsk genomes which you can find in above chart

    Samara Eneolithic Russia Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0122/SVP 35] M 4700-4000 BC R1b1 M415 H2a1 Mathieson 2015
    Samara Eneolithic Russia Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0433/SVP 46] M 4700-4000 BC R1a1 M459 U5a1i Mathieson 2015
    Samara Eneolithic Russia Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0434/SVP 47] M 4700-4000 BC Q1a F2676 U4a2 or U4d Mathieson 2015


    2 are mainly EHG (blue) with some WHG (navy blue), basically the same like the Karelia and Samara HG (also on the chart)
    they have no teal (CHG)

    they are R1a1 and Q1a and mtDNA U4 and U5, U4 and U5 are WHG in origin

    the 3rd has 22 % teal (CHG), 71 % EHG and no WHG
    he is a newcomer
    he is R1b1 and mtDNA H2a1, H2a1 is CHG in origin
    he may have been pré-R1b-V88 (but very early V88 then, spliting from the main V88 branch ca 16-17 ka)

    the Yamnaya (Pit Grave on the chart) and Afanasievo are a mixture of mainly this newcomer and some the 2 others
    Yamnaya and Afanasievo have about 16 % CHG, 82 % EHG and only 1 % WHG

    Yamnaya and Afanasievo people probably arrived in the Volga area during Khvalynsk period.
    That is way before Maykop.

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    MarkoZ
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    Where's this ADMIXTURE (?) analysis from?

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    This confirms that R1b may have entered the Steppe during the Khvalynsk period, perhaps as an offshoot from the contemporary Leyla Tepe culture in Azerbaijan. It is very clear from these three samples that only the R1b guy is an outsider with Caucasian admixture. This R1b guy also lacks the dark blue WHG admixture, which hints that in the Epipaleolithic R1a and R1b were originally EHG, but while R1a people intermingled with WHG tribes (linked to I2a, and surely that I2a2a-L701 found in Yamna), some R1b tribes had already moved south of the Caucasus, where they mixed with the teal people - indubitably linked to Y-haplogroup J, and probably J2b in this was, as J2b is found at relatively high frequency in the Volga-Ural region.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 19-11-16 at 22:38.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post

    2 are mainly EHG (blue) with some WHG (navy blue), basically the same like the Karelia and Samara HG (also on the chart)
    they have no teal (CHG)

    they are R1a1 and Q1a and mtDNA U4 and U5, U4 and U5 are WHG in origin


    Looks like pottery people migration from lake Baikal with language:

    "Individuals from Lokomotiv and Shamanka II were found to possess haplogroups K,
    R1a1 and C3, and individuals from Ust’-Ida and Kurma XI were found to belong to haplogroups Q, K and unidentified SNP (L914). For those individuals belonging to haplogroup Q, further experimentation to examine sub-haplogroups of Q revealed that these individuals belong to sub-haplogroup Q1a3"


    the 3rd has 22 % teal (CHG), 71 % EHG and no WHG
    he is a newcomer
    he is R1b1 and mtDNA H2a1, H2a1 is CHG in origin
    he may have been pré-R1b-V88 (but very early V88 then, spliting from the main V88 branch ca 16-17 ka)

    the Yamnaya (Pit Grave on the chart) and Afanasievo are a mixture of mainly this newcomer and some the 2 others
    Yamnaya and Afanasievo have about 16 % CHG, 82 % EHG and only 1 % WHG

    Yamnaya and Afanasievo people probably arrived in the Volga area during Khvalynsk period.
    That is way before Maykop.
    If the R1b1 came from afanasievo area with language, what kind of problem is it?

    1.yamna pit grave originated in pit house:

    Botai pit house


    2. afanasievo was related with botai horse domestication culture and Tocharian. But David Anthony explained that Repin culture brought the horse domestication culture of botai into afanasievo, but looks like the explanation is not persuasive at all.

    3. mtDNA of afanasievo is H. However, H was already found in Korea 7,000y ago(right one in the picture). Unfortunately there is no research paper, but the top research center has the DNA sample now, where recently a paper regarding Gengiskan Ydna was published. is there some member able to contact David Reich to call the research center to get auDNA of the sample? I think it is very important for Indoeuropean Culture. I am 99% sure the samples belong to ANE R or Q, even if it was reported that they EEF from Harz area in Germany.


    - stealing women is just a routine job of Indoeuropean, which became a tradition of exogamy of nomad, I think

    When it comes to understanding the origin of European culture, there’s another reason for looking at the Yamnaya. The very foundation of Rome may be steeped in their traditions. According to studies of IndoEuropean mythology, young Yamnaya men would go off in warlike groups, raping and pillaging for a few years, then return to their village and settle down into respectability as adults. Those cults were mythologically associated with wolves and dogs, like youths forming wild hunting packs, and the youths are said to have worn dog or wolf skins during their initiation. Anthony has found a site in Russia where the Yamnaya killed wolves and dogs in midwinter. He says it’s easy to imagine groups
    sacrificing and consuming the animals as a way to symbolically become wolves or dogs themselves. Bodies in Yamnaya graves on the western steppes frequently have pendants of dog canine teeth around their necks. Anthony says that all this offers solid archaeological evidence for the youthful “wolf packs” of Indo-European legends – and sees a link to the myth of the foundation of Rome. “You’ve got two boys, Romulus and Remus
    and a wolf that more or less gives birth to them,” he says. “And the earliest legends of the foundation of Rome are connected with a large group of homeless young men who were given shelter by Romulus. But they then wanted wives, so they invited in a neighbouring tribe and stole all their women. You can see that
    whole set of early legends as being connected possibly with the foundation of Rome by youthful war bands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Where's this ADMIXTURE (?) analysis from?
    K = 14

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016...apita-genomes/

    there is more interesting stuff in the table

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This confirms that R1b may have entered the Steppe during the Khvalynsk period, perhaps as an offshoot from the contemporary Leyla Tepe culture in Azerbaijan. It is very clear from these three samples that only the R1b guy is an outsider with Caucasian admixture. This R1b guy also lacks the dark blue admixture, which, if I remember well, is WHG.
    yes the WHG is from the Swiderian culture, which arrived in Eastern Europe prior to the EHG folks ; they brought the mtDNA U4/U5/U2e into Eastern Europe
    it is logical that the Karelians have some more WHG than the Samara HG / Khvalynsk folks

    the fact that the R1b Khvalynsk doesn't have WHG proves that he is a newcomer
    the fact that he has CHG indicates he comes from south of the Caucasus

    the subsequent Afanasievo/Yamna genomes could be explained more or less as 2/3 newcomer admixed with 1/3 of the 2 earlier Khvalynsk genomes

    these are the Y-calls for the Khvalynsk newcomer :

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0122/

    1 out of 14 calls for R1b-V88 is positive, but it may be a false call as it is not confirmed by more positive calls nearby

    Leyla-Tepe is contemporary with Khvalynsk culture, but not older, so this newcomer is more likely to come from a common ancestor with Leyla Tepe than from Leyla Tepe itself

    apart from all this, it seems more and more likely to me that the first tribe that melted copper ores, both in Tal-i Iblis and in eastern Serbia may have been R1b-V88

    these are the paleo/mesolithic western European genomes :

    A Paleo Meso WHG.png



    you can see the oldest genomes evolving from +/- 50 % WHG into practically 100 % WHG by abt 18.5 ka
    both the El Miron and the Villabruna clusters are 100 % WHG

    the later Motala genomes (7.5 ka) have EHG (blue) admixture, which is logical because pottery arrived into Scandinavia from Eastern Europe

    in the pitted ware, apart from blue EHG also light blue appears which is EEF

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    MarkoZ
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think there's a problem with the dataset considering Karelia shows up as only roughly ~70% 'EHG'. For reference, here's what the author of the blog believes the different colors to represent:

    Capture.PNG

    I'd venture a guess that this makes it quite useless for the sort of fine-scale analysis you are trying to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post


    If the R1b1 came from afanasievo area with language, what kind of problem is it?
    Afanasievo came later than Khvalynsk.
    And CHG came from south of Caucasus, not lake Bajkal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I think there's a problem with the dataset considering Karelia shows up as only roughly ~70% 'EHG'. For reference, here's what the author of the blog believes the different colors to represent:

    Capture.PNG

    I'd venture a guess that this makes it quite useless for the sort of fine-scale interpetration you are trying to do.
    the reference you post is slightly different, it is for K = 16, while the tables I post are for K = 14

    30 % WHG in Karelia makes perfect sense as I explained above in my post # 6

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post


    3. mtDNA of afanasievo is H. However, H was already found in Korea 7,000y ago(right one in the picture). Unfortunately there is no research paper, but the top research center has the DNA sample now, where recently a paper regarding Gengiskan Ydna was published. is there some member able to contact David Reich to call the research center to get auDNA of the sample? I think it is very important for Indoeuropean Culture. I am 99% sure the samples belong to ANE R or Q, even if it was reported that they EEF from Harz area in Germany.

    I have lots of anciant DNA from western Eurasia but not so much from eastern Eurasia. (except Kitoi and some Chinese neolithic)
    Could you share some of your sources with me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the reference you post is slightly different, it is for K = 16, while the tables I post are for K = 14

    30 % WHG in Karelia makes perfect sense as I explained above in my post # 6
    While the dataset is slightly different, the results are roughly similar. Since the 'White God' seems unwilling to divulge what he thinks his results are supposed to prove, this is still my best guess.

    Yet more 'WHG' in Karelia would imply that the very concept of 'EHG' should be called into question, since the Karelians already derived a large part of their ancestry from a similar source population in previous models. This means 'EHG' becomes another hypothetical population - at this point ADMIXTURE-based analyses would have pretty much outlived their usefulness IMHO. Hence the author of the blog deceptively referring to this component as 'Gravettian'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I have lots of anciant DNA from western Eurasia but not so much from eastern Eurasia. (except Kitoi and some Chinese neolithic)
    Could you share some of your sources with me?
    Sorry, as I said, there is no research paper at all. Nobody care about neolithic foreigners in Korea.
    However, it was shocking that long skulls with crouched positions were found 3 or 4 years ago. Only the reporters were concerned with the sensational issue.
    So they traced the origin of sample. They requested the above mentioned research center to get aDNA, where they got only mtDNA H. With the DNA, they went germany to meet so many scholars. German geneticist told them that modern people don't have that H, but EEF at germany had. And they concluded that the people were EEF from germany. But I don''t think the neolithic weakest EEF could not enter korean peninsular, b/c Korea was surrounded by neolithic wolf and lions, Hg N, R and Q at that time. so I thought R or Q carried Hg H or woman w/ Hg H.
    Their pottery was similar to The Linear Pottery OF GERMANY.:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This confirms that R1b may have entered the Steppe during the Khvalynsk period, perhaps as an offshoot from the contemporary Leyla Tepe culture in Azerbaijan. It is very clear from these three samples that only the R1b guy is an outsider with Caucasian admixture. This R1b guy also lacks the dark blue admixture, which, if I remember well, is WHG.
    Though he has a lot of this red element mofe popular in central Asia (I guess) and missing from Iranian Farmer. Maybe this R1b came from east side of Caspian and not from South Caucasus?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    I think there's a problem with the dataset considering Karelia shows up as only roughly ~70% 'EHG'. For reference, here's what the author of the blog believes the different colors to represent:

    Capture.PNG

    I'd venture a guess that this makes it quite useless for the sort of fine-scale analysis you are trying to do.
    I totally agree. The creator's explanation plus the fact that Karelia isn't 100% EHG tells you it's off. Plus, it doesn't comport with any of the academic papers on the subject.

    I wouldn't give it any serious consideration at all in terms of percentages.


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    A foreigner DNA would match quite well with pots (paper online Pottery from the Volga area in the Samara and South Urals region from Eneolithic to Early Bronze Age):

    According to the evidence from
    the early stage of the Eneolithic
    Samara culture, we can identify
    two typological groups of pottery,
    because the difference between
    them is confirmed technologically.
    One of them predominates and finds
    its origin in the traditions of the local Neolithic culture.
    The other group is considered outlandish, connected
    with the Azov-Dnieper and Tripolsky cultures
    from the northern Black Sea region.
    The outlandish settlers, who were not as numerous,
    must have been assimilated, but they added originality
    to the Samara culture and gave rise to the Eneolithic
    period in the Volga-Ural area. Thereafter, regular
    economic ties with the northern Black Sea and
    Balkan region developed, supplying ready-made copper
    products throughout the Eneolithic period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the fact that the R1b Khvalynsk doesn't have WHG proves that he is a newcomer
    ...
    Leyla-Tepe is contemporary with Khvalynsk culture, but not older, so this newcomer is more likely to come from a common ancestor with Leyla Tepe than from Leyla Tepe itself
    Not necessarily. Khvalynsk could have been founded by R1a-dominant tribes, and saw the arrival of Leyla Tepe R1b newcomers after the Khvalynsk period had started. The number of R1b people grew faster until over time they became dominant and the culture became Yamna. Note that there is a 500 year gap between the end of Khvalynsk (4000 BCE) and the beginning of Yamna (3500 BCE). Such transitional periods between clear-cut archeoloogical cultures is generally a sign of population change. So in my opinion, R1b entered the Steppe during Khvalynsk as a foreign element, not as a founder of Khvalynsk culture, just like R1b invaded the pre-existing Bell Beaker culture but did not found it.

    apart from all this, it seems more and more likely to me that the first tribe that melted copper ores, both in Tal-i Iblis and in eastern Serbia may have been R1b-V88
    I think you mean R1b1-P25, as R1b1c-V88 is not ancestral to R1b1a2-M269.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This confirms that R1b may have entered the Steppe during the Khvalynsk period, perhaps as an offshoot from the contemporary Leyla Tepe culture in Azerbaijan. It is very clear from these three samples that only the R1b guy is an outsider with Caucasian admixture. This R1b guy also lacks the dark blue WHG admixture, which hints that in the Epipaleolithic R1a and R1b were originally EHG, but while R1a people intermingled with WHG tribes (linked to I2a, and surely that I2a2a-L701 found in Yamna), some R1b tribes had already moved south of the Caucasus, where they mixed with the teal people - indubitably linked to Y-haplogroup J, and probably J2b in this was, as J2b is found at relatively high frequency in the Volga-Ural region.
    Don't trust ADMIXTURE analysis especially . All Eneolithic Samara guys had CHG admixture. The Q1a guy had the most CHG out of the three. The R1b guy had more EHG than Yamnaya, he was mostly EHG. The most likely CHG uniparental representative in the Eneolithic Samara guys is the mtDNA H2a1 in the R1b guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I totally agree. The creator's explanation plus the fact that Karelia isn't 100% EHG tells you it's off. Plus, it doesn't comport with any of the academic papers on the subject.

    I wouldn't give it any serious consideration at all in terms of percentages.
    it is a K = 14 admixture run on a large dataset
    the colours do not match 100 % to a predefined genome
    but upon inspection of the results it becomes clear which colour matches which genome most closely
    and the results make perfect sense

    e.g. EEF = Stutgart genome doesn't make any more sense than the light blue colour in this table, because the Stutgart genome is not a pure ancestor, it would be much more logical to define the Boncuklu genomes as EEF

    you are right that the light blue colour isn't an exact match of EEF, but it at least is as workable as the Stutgart genome which is more or less arbitrarily chosen as the best ancestral candidate from a small sample group
    in this tabel the light blue is more like the Barcin genomes than the Stutgart :

    D1 EEF Europa Asia Minor EN.jpg D2 EN LN CA Europe.jpg


    again you see a gradual increase of navy bleu (similar to WHG) admixture from EN to MN, LN and CA (copper age) which makes perfect sense

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it is a K = 14 admixture run on a large dataset
    the colours do not match 100 % to a predefined genome
    but upon inspection of the results it becomes clear which colour matches which genome most closely
    and the results make perfect sense

    e.g. EEF = Stutgart genome doesn't make any more sense than the light blue colour in this table, because the Stutgart genome is not a pure ancestor, it would be much more logical to define the Boncuklu genomes as EEF

    you are right that the light blue colour isn't an exact match of EEF, but it at least is as workable as the Stutgart genome which is more or less arbitrarily chosen as the best ancestral candidate from a small sample group
    in this tabel the light blue is more like the Barcin genomes than the Stutgart :

    D1 EEF Europa Asia Minor EN.jpg D2 EN LN CA Europe.jpg


    again you see a gradual increase of navy bleu (similar to WHG) admixture from EN to MN, LN and CA (copper age) which makes perfect sense
    It doesn't matter, Bicicleur, the percentages are wrong. It's a flawed analysis, as Fire-Haired also pointed out. Admixture alone can't be used, you have to look at formal statistics as well. Plus, even in terms of admixture the percentages are off from those in the academic papers.

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    and here you can see what the teal actualy means in this table (at the top of this image) :

    CHG Iran EN Armenian Assyrian.png


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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    It is no longer actual.

    This what was Gravettian now is Yaman.
    He added also WHG, which was in this legenda on the same colour.

    And he added also more colours.
    You must look by populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It doesn't matter, Bicicleur, the percentages are wrong. It's a flawed analysis, as Fire-Haired also pointed out. Admixture alone can't be used, you have to look at formal statistics as well. Plus, even in terms of admixture the percentages are off from those in the academic papers.
    K = 14 means 14 eigenvectors are calculated, which are specific to this dataset
    it makes perfect sense to compare genomes within this dataset

    however, if you run K = 14 on another dataset another 14 eigenvectors will be calculated
    therefore it doesn't make sense to compare genomes from 2 different datasets on which K =14 has been calculated
    that is the mistake many make
    that is why they think K admixture don't work

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    and here you can see what the teal actualy means in this table (at the top of this image) :

    CHG Iran EN Armenian Assyrian.png

    Why are you showing Armenians and the Semites (Jews + Assyrians)??? Modern Armenians & Semitic Assyrians are not really a good proxy for 'teal'. Both groups are NOT native to the Iranian Plateau. Original Armenians are native to Southern Caucasus and Semites are native to the Levant. Assyrian/Akkadians ancestors came from the Levant. Aramaic and Ugaritic ancestral Semitic tribes of the Assyrians came from the Levant. Their Akkadian ancestors came from the Arabistan.


    " The region of origin of the reconstructed Proto-Semitic language, ancestral to historical and modern Semitic languages in the Middle East, is still uncertain and much debated. A 2009 Bayesian analysis identified an origin for Semitic languages in the Levant around 3750 BC with a later single introduction of Ge'ez from what is now South Arabia into the Horn of Africa around 800 BC, with a slightly earlier introduction into parts of North Africa and southern Spain with the founding of Phoenician colonies such as ancient Carthage in the ninth century BC and Cádiz in the tenth century BC.[1][2][3] The earliest records of Semitic languages are from 30th century BCE Mesopotamia.

    Other theories include origins in the Arabian Peninsula or North Africa. "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien...eaking_peoples

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It doesn't matter, Bicicleur, the percentages are wrong. It's a flawed analysis, as Fire-Haired also pointed out. Admixture alone can't be used, you have to look at formal statistics as well. Plus, even in terms of admixture the percentages are off from those in the academic papers.
    Possibly you are right, and I too take these amateurish admixture runs rather lightly. However, I find it more logical to see Europe after IE bronze age invasion more ANE (or is it EHG - dark blue) than typically more WHG - black. There is always a question where this surge of WHG comes from in modern Europeans?
    We don't need to do much of mental equilibristics to explain extra EHG/ANE after Bronze Age, to agree with huge invasion of IE from Yamnaya. Having said that, I'm still digesting this K14 runs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Why are you showing Armenians and the Semites (Jews + Assyrians)??? Modern Armenians & Semitic Assyrians are not really a good proxy for 'teal'. Both groups are NOT native to the Iranian Plateau. Original Armenians are native to Southern Caucasus and Semites are native to the Levant. Assyrian/Akkadians ancestors came from the Levant. Aramaic and Ugaritic ancestral Semitic tribes of the Assyrians came from the Levant. Their Akkadian ancestors came from the Arabistan.


    " The region of origin of the reconstructed Proto-Semitic language, ancestral to historical and modern Semitic languages in the Middle East, is still uncertain and much debated. A 2009 Bayesian analysis identified an origin for Semitic languages in the Levant around 3750 BC with a later single introduction of Ge'ez from what is now South Arabia into the Horn of Africa around 800 BC, with a slightly earlier introduction into parts of North Africa and southern Spain with the founding of Phoenician colonies such as ancient Carthage in the ninth century BC and Cádiz in the tenth century BC.[1][2][3] The earliest records of Semitic languages are from 30th century BCE Mesopotamia.

    Other theories include origins in the Arabian Peninsula or North Africa. "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien...eaking_peoples
    Goga, look at this huge WHG in Iranian Zoroastrians. Where did it come from?
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016...apita-genomes/

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