My first Autossomal Results - Help with Admixture Maps

[psinacio]

Hello Colleagues,

I am researching my genealogy for more than 20 yrs and I decide getting into this DNA testing world.

I have tested myself and my Mother (my father has already passed away)

We did the FTDNA Autosomal Test and I am looking for some guidance on understanding the results.

We live in south Brazil and my ancestors have emigrated from Europe.
I have documented ancestors back 7 to 10 generations.
Based on this research I was able to estimate the expected ethnicity for my mother and I.

GENEALOGY

	Mother	Me
German	75,00%	37,50%
Azorean	25,00%	59,18%
Portugal		1,56%
Spain		1,56%
Italian		0,20%

FTDNA RESULTS:
Our results were quite strange. There are a lot of British Isles I cannot quite understand based on my ancestors.
And I cannot find any West Central Europe for my mother. I would expect it based on her high percentage of German ancestors.

	Mother	Me
British Isles	54%	32%
Southern Europe	20%	43%
Eastern Europe	19%	7%
Western and Central Europe		10%
Asia Minor	5%	5%
Native American		3%
North Africa	2%
West Africa		1%
East Central Africa	1%

DNALAND RESULTS:

I have then also uploaded and tried DNALand.
It looks better accurate. But why Sardinian? Kalash? Finnish? Make not much sense to me...

	Mother	Me
Northwest European	66,0%	30,0%
South/Central Europe	8,9%	24,0%
Southwestern Europe	6,7%	25,0%
Sardinian	6,3%
North Slavic	6,3%	7,8%
North African	5,1%	2,3%
Kalash	1,0%
Balkan		4,6%
Finnish		3,4%
Amazonia		1,6%
Ambigous		1,5%

GEDMATCH RESULTS:
I also tried Eurogenes K13 and Dodecad V3.
Here again some Asia, Oceanian, Siberian I cannot explain.

Are there Admixture maps for all these regions? I mean, what part of Europe is covered by Dodecad West European? I cannot quite imagine to which part of Europe, Asia they really correspond to. Gedmatch has no maps I could find.

	Eurogenes K13
	Mother	Me
North Atlantic	40,64%	30,0%
Baltic	23,70%	24,0%
West Mediterranean	16,84%	25,0%
East Mediterranean	9,44%
West Asia	2,53%	7,8%
Red Sea	2,30%	2,3%
Sub Saharan	1,29%
Ameridian	1,22%	4,6%
South Asian	0,99%	3,4%
Northeast African	0,62%	1,6%
Oceanian	0,35%
Siberian	0,08%	1,5%

	DODECAD V3
	Mother	Me
West European	43,41%	39,30%
Mediterranean	28,71%	29,36%
East European	13,62%	11,47%
West Asia	8,15%	10,30%
Southwest Asian	4,04%	2,99%
East African	0,60%	0,63%
Neo African	0,47%	0,65%
Northeast Asian	0,53%	1,89%
South Asian	0,36%	0,86%
Palaeo African	0,35%	0,75%
Northwest African	0,30%	1,35%
Southeast Asian		0,44%

I would appreciate any help here.

Best Regards,
Pedro

[Twilight]

Hello there Psinacio, welcome to Eupedia. since West European expands all the way to SE England, it has been theorized that West European is Anglo-Saxon/Germanic and British-Isles= likely Celtic Britian/Gaulish since the British Isles component stretches into Northern France. More study needs to be tested but you are looking at your "Antiquity ancestry". The OP of this thread made an excellent example on your genetic ancestry. Since the ancestry dates back to antiquity, It may also be helpful to study the history of your ancestral location in Germany and the history of the Azores.
http://ancestryforums.custhelp.com/posts/498c638a3c

[LeBrok]

We are all genetically mixed bunch. Through ages (thousands and thousands of years) people moved around continents, mixing and remixing with other tribes. Your DNA is a mix of bits and pieces of many ancient populations. Some from Europe, some from Asia, America or Africa. So if ancestry analysis says that your mother is 6.3% like Sardinian. It means that this part of her DNA is most common in Sardinia today. It doesn't mean part of your DNA came from Sardinia, though could have had. This part could have been from around Sardinia, or perhaps very ancient part related to first european farmers. Sardinians are most related to them from all the Europeans.
Now, this 6.3% Sardinian might be in one big piece of few substantial pieces. This would mean that you have a close relative, like great great grandfather or grandmother, who came from that region.
If this Sardinian part is in hundreds or thousands of smaller bits on many chromosomes, this means a very ancient connection. Might be as well with First European Farmers who came from Fertile Crescent.
Check our genetic section:
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/

[Fire Haired14]

Are you sure your ancestry is mostly Portuguese(Azorean) and German? The high British Isles score FTDNA gave you and your mother suggest you have lots of ancestry from the British Isles.

[Fire Haired14]

We are all genetically mixed bunch. Through ages (thousands and thousands of years) people moved around continents, mixing and remixing with other tribes.

This is a btw. We're all mixed if you go back thousands of years but most of us aren't mixed if you go as far as our memories/oral history can. I think we should acknowledge that ethnicity/nationality/whatever you wanna call is a very real thing and not belittle it with the few times there's cases of massive admixture between different groups. I'm not saying you do this but some people do. If they learn what genetics are learning about ancient human genetics they'll use that for political purposes. They'll say a ethnic, racial, national, etc. idenity doesn't matter

[Syky]

I think, DNA can answer a question like "Who am I?" very precisely, and we often try to find answer to a question "who were my ancestors?", which is not always compatible. All these calculators only tell you about your genetic components, not about your ancestors. I think this is the problem. There are many ways to get mixed like you are and most of it happened in ancient times.

[psinacio]

Thanks a lot guys, for your support here.

I must say I really understand I cannot directly correlate my genealogy research with may DNA results.
The DNA mixture is of course somehow random and my result may vary base on many factors.
But I must also say that I expected some level of agreement btw my genealogy and my DNA results.
They do not need to explicitly mimic my genealogy of course.
I can understand some ancient Sardinian, African, Asian DNA may survive throughout time, but I really find it strange to see 54% British Isles for my mother.

My deep research shows she is 75% German and I went back around 10 generations.
I have breakdown her ancestry here:
- German Rhineland: 31%
- German Mecklenburg: 19%
- German Bohemia: 13%
- German Bavaria: 6%
- German Pomerania: 6%

The other Azorean part of her genealogy may explain some Portuguese and Flemish results, along with Jewish and Moors.

But at the end I do not see any British Isles explanation
That assuming my research is all right. Of course I could imagine adoption scenarios, out of marriage children and so on...
But this would require an English element mixing in Germany or Azores.

FTDNA and DNAland provide a map showing the covered regions for each population used.
Do Eurogenes and Dodecad have also such thing?
I fond some maps here in the forum page, but not for all populations names....

Any further recommendation on how to go further with my research regarding my DNA results?

Regards,
Pedro

[Tomenable]

What are your results in Eurogenes K36 calculator? You are 3/5 Azorean but what does it inclue? Which European ancestries are included? I'm surprised that your "North Slavic" score in DNA.Land is higher than your mother's.

[Regio X]

psinacio, I guess something is missing in your genealogy. I would bet you have by your father side some Native American ancestors, and I'm not sure about Sub-Saharan. Perhaps a bit.
As for British Isles %, I think it's related to your German side, naturally. Btw, I came out in myOrigins with 18% from British Isles, and I don't have any known ancestor from there. A genetic cousin, also full Northern Italian, came out with 15% from Scandinavia instead, other came out as 2X% from Central Europe, and so on... The other %s, in this context, are always South Europe (predominantly), East Europe and Asia Minor. So, your British % is just a "confusion" of myOrigins, I would say.
Imo, 23andMe is the best in this regard, and even there the recall of Central Europeans (French & German) are just 8%, while the recall of British & Irish is just 39%. See: https://www.23andme.com/en-int/ances...osition_guide/

[psinacio]

Hi Tomenable,

Here they are, my K36 Results.
Mother Me
Italian 14,80% 18,02%
Iberian 14,70% 17,83%
North_Sea 14,00% 9,29%
North_Atlantic 12,27% 9,78%
Central_Euro 7,06% 5,47%
East_Central_Euro 7,01% 4,75%
Eastern_Euro 7,00% 6,23%
East_Balkan 5,83% 3,75%
Fennoscandian 3,37% 4,96%
West_Med 3,04% 5,49%
Armenian 2,64% 1,31%
French 1,80% 1,64%
Basque 1,76% 2,05%
Volga-Ural 1,40% -
East_Med 1,22% 1,40%
Arabian 0,84%
Amerindian 0,46% 3,24%
Central_African 0,40% 0,52%
West_African 0,30% -
East_African 0,10% 0,55%
Near_Eastern - 3,39%
Omotic - 0,05%
South_Asian - 0,27%


Do they have any advantage over K13?
Here the Italian seams out of place... (although my father has a Ricciardeli ancestor back in 1700)

Regarding my ancestors, I believe I should keep my eyes first on my mother results.
She has 75% German ancestry and this is a recent immigration to Brazil, less than 150 yrs.
I am quite sure they have not mixed with any Amerindian or African, since they remained in isolated in a German community cluster.
My mother has this 25% Azorean background because of my Great-grandfather which descendant from Azorean people.
Her whole family has a German phenotype I would say, denoting the German origins.

Regarding my father, he has almost all ancestors rooting to Azores (and a tiny portion to Spain). This is a much older immigration, back to 1700, 1600.
And for sure there must be some Amerindian and African mixing there.
His family has a Portuguese phenotype, which may included many possibilities...
So I am not surprise for Amerindian and African scoring up in my results....
There also a recent documented cousin marriage in my father side btw my great-grandparents. Not sure how this confuses the DNA testing...

My North Slavic scoring higher than my mother cannot be explained by my father side. Must be wrong...

RegioX, I will check your link, looks interesting.
23andMe does not allow add my FTDNA results to there database, right?

Another curiosity. How do Phase could help here?
I just tried phasing my father out of my results and my mother.
Is this really to trust? I understood Phase can somehow partly estimate my father admixture?

K13 Phased Father
Population
North_Atlantic 28,39
West_Med 20,79
Baltic 13,76
East_Med 9,72
West_Asian 6,1
Amerindian 5,59
Northeast_African 3,05
Sub-Saharan 3,03
South_Asian 2,74
Red_Sea 2,72
Siberian 2,04
East_Asian 1,7
Oceanian 0,37


K36 Phashed Father
Population
Iberian 17,1
Italian 16,02
West_Med 6,7
North_Sea 6,49
Fennoscandian 6,46
North_Atlantic 6,09
Near_Eastern 5,35
Amerindian 4,88
Eastern_Euro 4,4
East_Balkan 2,86
South_Asian 2,77
Central_Euro 2,45
French 2,35
North_Caucasian 2,21
Basque 2,16
East_Central_Euro 2,13
Omotic 1,72
West_African 1,65
East_Med 1,21
Northeast_African 1,15
Indo-Chinese 0,91
East_African 0,65
Central_African 0,55
Siberian 0,53
North_African 0,33
Pygmy 0,31
East_Asian 0,29
South_Chinese 0,25

Regards!
Pedro

[Regio X]

psinacio, is your father from Florianópolis and your mother from Vale do Itajaí or surroundings by any chance?

I believe phasing can help with your father admixture, but I would be careful. According to 23andMe, for example, I would have inherited from my mother a huge % of certain ancestry, while from my father I'd have inherited a huge % of a different one, and both of them have not so different results in general.

[psinacio]

Hi Regio X,

That is almost there, my mother from Joinville and my father from Praia Grande (south of the Santa Catarina state).

[Twilight]

Turns out Joinville is in the same province as Florianopolis; the state is Santa Catriana. Praia Grande is a town in São Paulo two states north of Santa Catriana. Also apparently German immigration to Brazil didn't start until 1818.

Sources:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Brazilians

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joinville

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florianópolis

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/São_Paulo

[Regio X]

Twilight, his father is from Praia Grande in SC (Santa Catarina), not Praia Grande in SP (São Paulo). The first groups of German settlers arrived around 1824 in RS (Rio Grande do Sul), if my memory servers. Almost 200 years ago. But there are many people on Southern Brazil who still speak German dialects. Some of them, old people, hardly speak Portuguese.

[Twilight]

Twilight, his father is from Praia Grande in SC (Santa Catarina), not Praia Grande in SP (São Paulo). The first groups of German settlers arrived around 1824 in RS (Rio Grande do Sul), if my memory servers. Almost 200 years ago. But there are many people on Southern Brazil who still speak German dialects. Some of them, old people, hardly speak Portuguese.

Sorry, didn't see that post Until now. Anyhow If Florianopolis is in the same Provence as Praia Grande, I guess that would explain the Azore ancestry. And since the Azores helped found Santa Catarina, that makes room for the possibility of a Native American ancestor somewhere on your father's side of the family. It's pretty common for Latin Americans to have some sort of Native American Ancestry. :)I got 1818 from the German-Brazilian Wikipedia link, apparently 165 German families settled in IIheus, Bahia in 1818 then the German population started booming in 1824. ^ "Projeto Imigração Alemã". Retrieved 2015-08-04.Although yes the wiki link said that there was a huge boom none the less of German population.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Brazilians

[Regio X]

Sorry, didn't see that post Until now. Anyhow If Florianopolis is in the same Provence as Praia Grande, I guess that would explain the Azore ancestry. And since the Azores helped found Santa Catarina, that makes room for the possibility of a Native American ancestor somewhere on your father's side of the family. It's pretty common for Latin Americans to have some sort of Native American Ancestry. :)I got 1818 from the German-Brazilian Wikipedia link, apparently 165 German families settled in IIheus, Bahia in 1818 then the German population started booming in 1824. ^ "Projeto Imigração Alemã". Retrieved 2015-08-04.Although yes the wiki link said that there was a huge boom none the less of German population.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Brazilians

You're right. The first Germans arrived in 1818 in Bahia, but this colony didn't thrive; the group dissolved after a short time. The same in 1821 and 1822. There wasn't and there isn't important "German settlements" consolidated in this province. From 1824 (if I'm not mistaken) the Germans start to colonize other places with success and in large numbers, especially in the South: these colonies grew up and continued to receive immigrants for some time. The main settlements were in SC (Santa Catarina), followed by RS, then PR, SP, ES... Many immigrants from different European countries lived somewhat isolated for several decades in colonies in the South, that's why in this region some languages and cultures were preserved for so long - til today in certain areas.
Some people consider 25 july as the commemorative date of German immigration in Brazil, btw. It refers to 25 july 1824.

[psinacio]

Hi guys, you are really doing very well in learning about Brazil! My family is mainly settled in the Santa Catarina state which has a very strong European immigration.My mother side is mostly related to more recent German immigration waves (less than 150 yrs old), but also Azorean Portuguese (1/4). My grandmother herself has spoken only German until she was 7 years old. Then WWII came and the German language was prohibited to be used in the schools during the war. She kind of lost the fluency.My father side on the other hand is almost all Azorean-Portuguese, related to earlier immigration waves to Brazil (around 200-300 years old).My documentary research has not shown yet any Amerindian or African elements mixing, but I still have end of lines untraced that surely allow this possibility.The mixing between Amerindian and European was quite common in Latin American, that is right, specially for some countries.It has also happened a lot in Brazil, but not was not so usual in the southern part of the country, which has been mainly colonized by Azoreans, Italians, Germans, Polishs, etcSo at the end it is no surprise to me finding some Ameridian / African scores in my results. The scores hard to explain are the high number in British Isles. But as you guys said, it might be a bad deduction from the Admixture calculators...Regards,Pedro

[Regio X]

Hi guys, you are really doing very well in learning about Brazil! My family is mainly settled in the Santa Catarina state which has a very strong European immigration.My mother side is mostly related to more recent German immigration waves (less than 150 yrs old), but also Azorean Portuguese (1/4). My grandmother herself has spoken only German until she was 7 years old. Then WWII came and the German language was prohibited to be used in the schools during the war. She kind of lost the fluency.My father side on the other hand is almost all Azorean-Portuguese, related to earlier immigration waves to Brazil (around 200-300 years old).My documentary research has not shown yet any Amerindian or African elements mixing, but I still have end of lines untraced that surely allow this possibility.The mixing between Amerindian and European was quite common in Latin American, that is right, specially for some countries.It has also happened a lot in Brazil, but not was not so usual in the southern part of the country, which has been mainly colonized by Azoreans, Italians, Germans, Polishs, etcSo at the end it is no surprise to me finding some Ameridian / African scores in my results. The scores hard to explain are the high number in British Isles. But as you guys said, it might be a bad deduction from the Admixture calculators...Regards,Pedro

And the Azorean accent survives in places like Florianópolis, right?

Btw, I think the genetic study (at least the one I read about) done in Brazil wasn't well done. It seems they tested just people from some capitals, i.e., they ignored people from the country. The Brazilian demography is not so simple.

[Tomenable]

Hmmm for some reason recently text in my posts gets "clustered together" (see below) - what the heck is wrong?

[Tomenable]

She has 75% German ancestry and this is a recent immigration to Brazil, less than 150 yrs.I am quite sure they have not mixed with any Amerindian or African, since they remained in isolated in a German community cluster.

You can check it by using MDLP World-22 calculator to see if your mother has any Amerindian admixture.BTW, it would be good if you could say from which regions is your mother's German ancestry. Germans are very mixed. I have several GEDmatch kit numbes of Germans, and depending on region of Germany (or region of Europe - because German communities used to be scattered all over before the World Wars), they have very different scores. The epitome of "West Germanic blood" are Dutch people, I would say. Germans are mutts compared to Dutch.Maybe your mother comes from some region of Germany where they tend to be similar to British people?=========================Check for example this comparison of a Northern Dutchman, Eastern German and East-South German in Eurogenes K13:1) 100% Northern Dutchman:When it comes to similarity to one population, he is most similar to Danes and to other Northern Dutch people:Single Population Sharing:# Population (source) Distance1 Danish 1.672 North_Dutch 2.283 Norwegian 2.714 North_German 3.845 Orcadian 4.276 Swedish 4.38(...)In hypothetical modeling as a mixture of two populations, he could be Danish + Swedish or Danish + Norwegian:Mixed Mode Population Sharing:# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance1 83% Danish + 17% Swedish @ 1.442 74.6% Danish + 25.4% Norwegian @ 1.493 93.2% Danish + 6.8% North_Swedish @ 1.49(...)2) 100% Eastern German:Single Population Sharing:In terms of similarity to one population, he is most similar to other East Germans, Hungarians, Austrians and Poles:# Population (source) Distance1 East_German 5.212 Hungarian 6.173 Austrian 6.924 South_Polish 7.025 Croatian 8.76 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.287 Ukrainian 9.778 Polish 10.04(...)In modeling as a mix of two populations, he could be e.g. 50% Eastern Pole or 50% Belarusian + 50% Western German:Mixed Mode Population Sharing:# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance1 51.2% Belorussian + 48.8% West_German @ 1.382 69.1% Austrian + 30.9% Estonian @ 1.573 50.9% Estonian_Polish + 49.1% West_German @ 1.58(...)3) 50% East German (father) + 50% South German (mother):In terms of similarity to one population, he is most similar to South-East (?) Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, Croatians:Single Population Sharing:# Population (source) Distance1 East_German 2.472 Austrian 3.283 Hungarian 4.844 Croatian 8.985 South_Polish 10.746 West_German 10.78(...)In hypothetical modeling as a mix of two populations, he could be a child of one Polish parent and one French parent:Mixed Mode Population Sharing:# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance1 58.4% South_Polish + 41.6% French @ 1.212 54.3% French + 45.7% Estonian_Polish @ 1.483 54.4% French + 45.6% Belorussian @ 1.624 53.7% French + 46.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 1.695 53.8% Ukrainian + 46.2% French @ 1.756 51.8% Polish + 48.2% French @ 1.85(...)

[Tomenable]

BTW it would be interesting to see some GEDmatch results of these guys: http://www.nature.com/articles/srep36392

[Regio X]

She has 75% German ancestry and this is a recent immigration to Brazil, less than 150 yrs.I am quite sure they have not mixed with any Amerindian or African, since they remained in isolated in a German community cluster

It's also possible that her Sub-Saharan % came from the grandfather related to Azores.

[psinacio]

Hi Tomenable,I have tried MDLP World-22 for my mother as you recommended:North-East-European 44,92Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 33,88West-Asian 8,69Near_East 6,5North-European-Mesolithic 1,78Indian 0,98Samoedic 0,74Indo-Iranian 0,62South-America_Amerind 0,52South-African 0,36Pygmy 0,26Melanesian 0,25Arctic-Amerind 0,23Mesoamerican 0,18I I see some Amerind, but at very low numbers (below 1%). I do not know if this can be considered an evidence, or just noise.My results on the other hand show higher numbers for Amerindians 1,94% and 1,36%.

[Tomenable]

It is possible that your mother has between 1% and a few % of Amerindian ancestry. For example I score only 0.2% Amerind, so much less than your mother. Your mother has: South-Amerind 0,52 + Arctic-Amerind 0,23 + Mesoamerican 0,18 = 1% Amerind in total. I have only 1/5 of this: North-Amerind 0,19%. A guy from Dominican Republic has: North-Amerind 4,78% + Mesoamerican 2,52% + South-Amerind 2,41% = 10% Amerind in total. One Ecuadorian guy has: Mesoamerican 19,58% + North-Amerind 10,86% + South-Amerind 7,46% + Austronesian 0,50% + East-Siberean 0,37% = 39% Amerind in total. His daughter has: Mesoamerican 13,95% + North-Amerind 7,35% + South-Amerind 6,42% + Austronesian 0,78% = 28,5% Amerind in total. I count "Austronesian" and "East-Siberean" as part of Amerind, because AFAIK it is absent from Europe. "Samoedic" and "North-Siberean" is most probably from Europe.

[psinacio]

Guys, Why is the word wrap not working?