Politics Italian Constitutional Reform referendum

[Benzgolv]

^ All good points. I thought the immigration to Argentina had occurred during an earlier period, I just wasn't sure of the exact details.

I'm aware of a great-aunt who married and migrated to Argentina, probably around the 1930s.

On the referendum, personally, I can't believe Italians would choose to leave the EU.

Same. I know that since Italy joined the Eurozone its economy has been stagnated, but I don't think it's because of the Euro but because of high taxes, inefficiency, burocracy and corruption. If it wasn't for the Euro, Italy would have suffered much more instability.

 

[Angela]

They must have a point, I respect that but I don't think that one must pay taxes or do military service in order to be entitled to vote. I wait for your reflexion!

I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree here, Benzgolv. If you have no "skin in the game" you shouldn't have a say in the outcome. Indeed, I disagree with the "jure sanguinis" laws altogether, beyond the situation where a child is born on foreign soil to Italian citizens who are temporarily out of the country. My children speak Italian rather imperfectly, they've never lived there beyond a month or two in the summers, and they know almost nothing of the complexities of Italian politics, and how these decisions will impact life in Italy. It's absurd, in my opinion, that they should have the right to vote in elections. It’s even worse if people can’t even speak Italian. I've met a few people who've used those laws to move to Italy, where they become part of the social service network without ever having contributed to it, and whose willingness to defend it should it become necessary I sincerely doubt. People can, of course, identify how they wish: that’s their prerogative. I’m just telling you how it’s viewed by most Italians of my acquaintance.

(Oh, your Piemontese visitor may have been surprised that your family kept its culinary traditions, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t kept in Piemonte. From what I can tell bagna cauda is still on the menu everywhere in Piemonte, as is vitello tonnato. Indeed, I make the latter pretty often myself.)

Now, as to the referendum, I should preface by saying that I think there should be a major over haul of the laws in Italy to get rid of many of the socialistic, anti-business, anti-capital laws which have stifled business growth and innovation in Italy. That runs the gamut from making it easier to incorporate, employment laws, to taxation and on and on. I also think the bureaucracy, the home for politically connected incompetents and no shows, imo, should be drastically reformed.

So, as you can see, I was inclined to look favorably on Renzi's statements that he wanted to address some of these issues, despite the fact that he is a center-left politician.

I also had absolutely no respect for the 5 Stelle movement or its clownish, comedian leader, Beppe Grillo. It's "platform", did nothing to address many of Italy's endemic problems, and so far as I could see was increasingly being driven left by young people even more "loony left", and with even less knowledge of economic realities than their parents.

As time has passed, Renzi has disappointed, and 5 Stelle has proved even more incompetent, and corrupt, than I had thought, ironic given it's running on an anti-corruption platform.

That said, these proposed amendments to the constitution are problematical. First of all, I frankly don’t know why he’s bothering with this instead of grappling with the real reforms Italy needs to make. It’s a waste of time, and he wasted a lot of political capital on it. Second of all, I’m personally a small, decentralized government fan, and so anything that takes away checks and balances, as would happen if one whole chamber is gone, is not normally something I would support, although to have hundreds of senators drawing the highest salaries in Europe is something that has to be fixed. The biggest problem for me is that so many of these positions would be filled by appointment, not by democratic vote. That seems to me to open the door to even more possible corruption.

The only reason that I was considering a yes vote is that I think putting 5 Stelle into power would be an utter disaster. They have no interest in making the reforms that are so needed, and they’re incompetents to boot, imo.

On balance I think it’s better to take that risk and hope that what actually happens is that there is an interim technocrat government that can in the interim make some progress on these reforms, and then hoping that elections would result in a sounder choice. I’m certainly not convinced this is the right choice, however.

That seems to be my story this year. I voted for neither Clinton nor Trump. In this case, I don’t think abstaining is the answer.

 

[Benzgolv]

I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree here, Benzgolv. If you have no "skin in the game" you shouldn't have a say in the outcome. Indeed, I disagree with the "jure sanguinis" laws altogether, beyond the situation where a child is born on foreign soil to Italian citizens who are temporarily out of the country. My children speak Italian rather imperfectly, they've never lived there beyond a month or two in the summers, and they know almost nothing of the complexities of Italian politics, and how these decisions will impact life in Italy. It's absurd, in my opinion, that they should have the right to vote in elections. It’s even worse if people can’t even speak Italian. I've met a few people who've used those laws to move to Italy, where they become part of the social service network without ever having contributed to it, and whose willingness to defend it should it become necessary I sincerely doubt. People can, of course, identify how they wish: that’s their prerogative. I’m just telling you how it’s viewed by most Italians of my acquaintance.


(Oh, your Piemontese visitor may have been surprised that your family kept its culinary traditions, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t kept in Piemonte. From what I can tell bagna cauda is still on the menu everywhere in Piemonte, as is vitello tonnato. Indeed, I make the latter pretty often myself.)

Now, as to the referendum, I should preface by saying that I think there should be a major over haul of the laws in Italy to get rid of many of the socialistic, anti-business, anti-capital laws which have stifled business growth and innovation in Italy. That runs the gamut from making it easier to incorporate, employment laws, to taxation and on and on. I also think the bureaucracy, the home for politically connected incompetents and no shows, imo, should be drastically reformed.

So, as you can see, I was inclined to look favorably on Renzi's statements that he wanted to address some of these issues, despite the fact that he is a center-left politician.

I also had absolutely no respect for the 5 Stelle movement or its clownish, comedian leader, Beppe Grillo. It's "platform", did nothing to address many of Italy's endemic problems, and so far as I could see was increasingly being driven left by young people even more "loony left", and with even less knowledge of economic realities than their parents.

As time has passed, Renzi has disappointed, and 5 Stelle has proved even more incompetent, and corrupt, than I had thought, ironic given it's running on an anti-corruption platform.

That said, these proposed amendments to the constitution are problematical. First of all, I frankly don’t know why he’s bothering with this instead of grappling with the real reforms Italy needs to make. It’s a waste of time, and he wasted a lot of political capital on it. Second of all, I’m personally a small, decentralized government fan, and so anything that takes away checks and balances, as would happen if one whole chamber is gone, is not normally something I would support, although to have hundreds of senators drawing the highest salaries in Europe is something that has to be fixed. The biggest problem for me is that so many of these positions would be filled by appointment, not by democratic vote. That seems to me to open the door to even more possible corruption.

The only reason that I was considering a yes vote is that I think putting 5 Stelle into power would be an utter disaster. They have no interest in making the reforms that are so needed, and they’re incompetents to boot, imo.

On balance I think it’s better to take that risk and hope that what actually happens is that there is an interim technocrat government that can in the interim make some progress on these reforms, and then hoping that elections would result in a sounder choice. I’m certainly not convinced this is the right choice, however.

That seems to be my story this year. I voted for neither Clinton nor Trump. In this case, I don’t think abstaining is the answer.

Angela, I would have to say that I agree on everything you just said about the referendum. I'm pro-small and decentralized government, giving more power to local governments and cutting federal spending. I think in the case of Italy this would be a little problematic since there are strong differences between regions, with a rich north (richer than some central European regions) and a poor south (poorer than some eastern European countries). However, every country has its regional differences, see the US and compare sothern states to north-eastern or western states. In my country, Argentina, the same happens with the rich Pampa region and the poor northern states. Matteo Renzi is not someone I would support as he is in the centre-left, but I think he's really willing to pass the reforms the country needs, so I would lean to vote "yes". I understand your point that as I'm not in Italy living the everyday life I should abstene to vote, and this will sound stupid maybe but in Argentina we're living the same, as we have pretty similar societies and we inherited some negative things (among all the positive things) of the Italian way of thinking, reflected in our political system. We have lots of bureaucracy, high taxes, inefficiency (of course, as we are in Latin America this is much more pronounced than in Italy), etc. Perhaps people living in first world Anglo countries find it more difficult to understand.

Edit: you didn't tell me which part of Italy you are from, but it's good to know you eat Vitel Toné or Vitello Tonnato, my favourite dish.

 

[Angela]

Angela, I would have to say that I agree on everything you just said about the referendum. I'm pro-small and decentralized government, giving more power to local governments and cutting federal spending. I think in the case of Italy this would be a little problematic since there are strong differences between regions, with a rich north (richer than some central European regions) and a poor south (poorer than some eastern European countries). However, every country has its regional differences, see the US and compare sothern states to north-eastern or western states. In my country, Argentina, the same happens with the rich Pampa region and the poor northern states. Matteo Renzi is not someone I would support as he is in the centre-left, but I think he's really willing to pass the reforms the country needs, so I would lean to vote "yes". I understand your point that as I'm not in Italy living the everyday life I should abstene to vote, and this will sound stupid maybe but in Argentina we're living the same, as we have pretty similar societies and we inherited some negative things (among all the positive things) of the Italian way of thinking, reflected in our political system. We have lots of bureaucracy, high taxes, inefficiency (of course, as we are in Latin America this is much more pronounced than in Italy), etc. Perhaps people living in first world Anglo countries find it more difficult to understand.

Edit: you didn't tell me which part of Italy you are from, but it's good to know you eat Vitel Toné or Vitello Tonnato, my favourite dish.

I was born in a town north of La Spezia (where most of the male members of my family have worked) in northwestern Toscana. Traditionally the area is called the Lunigiana. Control by Toscana dates to the Medici. My mother's mother's family has lived in the same area of the northern Lunigiana for hundreds of years. My mother's father's family has some ancestry from La Spezia itself. The surname seems to have come down from Lombardia, then to Piemonte, and then to Liguria.

My father's entire family has lived in the northern Apennines south of Parma and Reggio Emilia in Emilia from perhaps the 1400s. Fwiw, on most genetics tests I score approximately midway between the people of Bergamo and the people of Firenze. When more Italian samples are included, as in MDLP, my closest population is variously either Italy-Piedmont or the sample from Valle Borbera, The fits are still not great, however, which is a testament to the extreme substructure in northern Italy, far more than exists in the south.

Lunigiana:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunigiana

I've posted quite a bit about it and the coastal areas in particular in the travel section. I've also posted extensively about Toscana.

In case you're not familiar with it, the Valle Borbera is a region between Piacenza, Alessandria, the hinterlands of Genova, and bordering on far western Emilia. It's hard to put a name on it...very Ligurian but also some Piemonte and Lombardia and Emilia. No wonder it scores so close to the Piemonte samples. Maybe just call it the Quattro Province?
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_Borbera
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_Province

If you all would like a thread where you can discuss Italian ancestry in the diaspora, you can either start it yourselves, or I'd be happy to create it for you. It would be very interesting, I think.

 

[Benzgolv]

I was born in a town north of La Spezia (where most of the male members of my family have worked) in northwestern Toscana. Traditionally the area is called the Lunigiana. Control by Toscana dates to the Medici. My mother's mother's family has lived in the same area of the northern Lunigiana for hundreds of years. My mother's father's family has some ancestry from La Spezia itself. The surname seems to have come down from Lombardia, then to Piemonte, and then to Liguria.

My father's entire family has lived in the northern Apennines south of Parma and Reggio Emilia in Emilia from perhaps the 1400s. Fwiw, on most genetics tests I score approximately midway between the people of Bergamo and the people of Firenze. When more Italian samples are included, as in MDLP, my closest population is variously either Italy-Piedmont or the sample from Valle Borbera, The fits are still not great, however, which is a testament to the extreme substructure in northern Italy, far more than exists in the south.

Lunigiana:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunigiana

I've posted quite a bit about it and the coastal areas in particular in the travel section. I've also posted extensively about Toscana.

In case you're not familiar with it, the Valle Borbera is a region between Piacenza, Alessandria, the hinterlands of Genova, and bordering on far western Emilia. It's hard to put a name on it...very Ligurian but also some Piemonte and Lombardia and Emilia. No wonder it scores so close to the Piemonte samples. Maybe just call it the Quattro Province?
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_Borbera
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_Province

If you all would like a thread where you can discuss Italian ancestry in the diaspora, you can either start it yourselves, or I'd be happy to create it for you. It would be very interesting, I think.

We owe that post to ourselves! I haven't seen any italian diaspora thread yet.
That place must be beautiful. The nearer I've been is in Tortona, which is the place part of ny Piemontese family is from.
If you can make a post about this I would be willing to share my history. You are better than me in this haha.

thanks for sharing your thoughts!

 

[Angela]

We owe that post to ourselves! I haven't seen any italian diaspora thread yet.
That place must be beautiful. The nearer I've been is in Tortona, which is the place part of ny Piemontese family is from.
If you can make a post about this I would be willing to share my history. You are better than me in this haha.

thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Not a problem, Benzgolv.

Here is the new thread.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33146-Italians-of-the-Diaspora?p=495415#post495415

 

[Sile]

http://www.economist.com/news/leade...-just-not-ones-offer-why-italy-should-vote-no

 

[Benzgolv]

http://www.economist.com/news/leade...-just-not-ones-offer-why-italy-should-vote-no

That's where a took my arguments to vote NO: because of Beppe Grillo. The Financial Times says that a NO vote would be a catastrophe. It's very confusing!

 

[Sile]

That's where a took my arguments to vote NO: because of Beppe Grillo. The Financial Times says that a NO vote would be a catastrophe. It's very confusing!

I already stated that because Grillo has already been convicted in the past for man-slaughter he cannot enter politics.............if his party wins, someone else from his party will be leader.

But a yes vote could in the future lead to a fascist system again............the current format is not workable either with a 70-30 centralist-decentralist system.

Since Italy has always had a form of a centralised government:
king
Fascism
and 60 plus governments from WWII

then they need to try the German decentralised or even the swiss system

 

[Angela]

It doesn't matter who's at the head of 5 Stelle. The question is does one want to take the risk that they will wind up running Italy.

 

[Benzgolv]

I already stated that because Grillo has already been convicted in the past for man-slaughter he cannot enter politics.............if his party wins, someone else from his party will be leader.

But a yes vote could in the future lead to a fascist system again............the current format is not workable either with a 70-30 centralist-decentralist system.

Since Italy has always had a form of a centralised government:
king
Fascism
and 60 plus governments from WWII

then they need to try the German decentralised or even the swiss system

It doesn't matter who's at the head of 5 Stelle. The question is does one want to take the risk that they will wind up running Italy.

What Angela said is what I meant when I said I'm scared of Beppe Grillo, Sile. It's not Beppe Grillo himself, but his party or ideas, as you say some kind of fascist regime could arise. I agree with you that more federalism would be better. The Spanish system of "Comunidades Autónomas" works well and was helpful to preserve regional identities and languages, something ignored by most italian administrations.

 

[Sile]

No vote ..........won with nearly 60%

Renzi has resigned


Either the president will ask mr. Padoan to form a government or new elections

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pier_Carlo_Padoan

 

[Benzgolv]

No vote ..........won with nearly 60%

Renzi has resigned


Either the president will ask mr. Padoan to form a government or new elections

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pier_Carlo_Padoan

I don't see Padoan as Prime Minister, he is very technical. Italy needs a politician who knows how to manage the situation of political instability. Padoan didn't even know what was the price of 1lt of milk!! He is not in touch with reality. Maybe it's time for elections!

 

[Sile]

I don't see Padoan as Prime Minister, he is very technical. Italy needs a politician who knows how to manage the situation of political instability. Padoan didn't even know what was the price of 1lt of milk!! He is not in touch with reality. Maybe it's time for elections!

Maybe ...............but mr. Grasso is not the answer either.

I have been saying in the economist for about 5 plus years, that the only way to fix this Feudal italian political system is for Italy to adapt entirely the Swiss model of politics. So instead of an Italian state we will have a "Confederation of Italian states" who will all be represented in government ...................it will also cut the politicians down to about a third of what they are now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Switzerland

 

[Sile]

Speaking of reforms

Article 116 of the italian Constituation

Art. 116


Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Sardinia, Sicily, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol and Valle d'Aosta/Vallée d'Aoste have special forms and conditions of autonomy pursuant to the special statutes adopted by constitutional law.
The Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol Region is composed of the autonomous provinces of Trent and Bolzano.
Additional special forms and conditions of autonomy, related to the areas specified in art. 117, paragraph three and paragraph two, letter l) - limited to the organisational requirements of the Justice of the Peace - and letters n) and s), may be attributed to other Regions by State Law, upon the initiative of the Region concerned, after consultation with the local authorities, in compliance with the principles set forth in art. 119. Said Law is approved by both Houses of Parliament with the absolute majority of their members, on the basis of an agreement between the State and the Region concerned.



Autonomous regions with special statute



Autonomous regions


Article 116 of the Italian Constitution grants to five regions (namely Sardinia, Sicily, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Aosta Valley and Friuli-Venezia Giulia) home rule, acknowledging their powers in relation to legislation, administration and finance. These regions became autonomous in order to take into account cultural differences and protect linguistic minorities. Moreover, the government wanted to prevent their secession from Italy after the Second World War.^[9]
Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol constitutes a special case. The region is nearly powerless, and the powers granted by the region's statute are mostly exercised by the two autonomous provinces within the region, Trentino and South Tyrol. In this case, the regional institution plays a coordinating role.^{[citation needed]}

If one has recently seen , that the Veneto has initiated

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2016/12/06/news/venexit_veneto_dice_si_a_bilinguismo_e_minoranza_etnica-153596879/

Brief English version below ............enacted on the 6th of December

The regional council in the northern Italian region of Veneto has approved a bill defining its population as a “minority.” The move has already been dubbed 'Venexit' and is widely seen as an additional step towards the region’s independence from Rome.

The bill, passed Tuesday evening, labels those hailing from Veneto as a “national minority,” meaning its natives could define their ethnicity as Venetian, La Repubblica reported.


It would also mean that the Venetian language – a separate tongue, despite often being referred to as a dialect of Italian – would be taught in schools and used in public institutions and on road signs. Public officials would have to pass an exam in Venetian in order to take office. Although the language was officially recognized by Veneto’s regional council in 2007, it is not currently recognized by the Italian state.
The bill could also pave the way for Veneto’s independence, with La Repubblica and other media already referring to the bill’s passage as 'Venexit,' after Britain's historic Brexit referendum, in which the country voted to leave the European Union.
“For us it’s important because we want to be considered as something different from the rest of the Italian people, because our region produces more and more and they give more resources, more and more resources to Italy and they receive less and less resources from the state,” Stefano Valdegamberi, deputy of the regional parliament of Venice, told RT.
“Our people have a very long history, very important history, identity, and they want it to be recognized,” he added.

Many of those in favor of Venetian independence argue that the region is weighed down by Italy's national debt, and claim the vote would protect and revive the region’s culture. They have referenced the German and Italian regions of South Tyrol and Trento, natives of which are protected under the European Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.


As per conversation with my cousin in the Veneto and the meetings she attended...............the aim is to place the Veneto into the classification of the above noted article 116 of the Italian Constituation, any stories of referendum of independence or similar is pure newspaper story telling

 

[Benzgolv]

Speaking of reforms

Article 116 of the italian Constituation

Art. 116


Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Sardinia, Sicily, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol and Valle d'Aosta/Vallée d'Aoste have special forms and conditions of autonomy pursuant to the special statutes adopted by constitutional law.
The Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol Region is composed of the autonomous provinces of Trent and Bolzano.
Additional special forms and conditions of autonomy, related to the areas specified in art. 117, paragraph three and paragraph two, letter l) - limited to the organisational requirements of the Justice of the Peace - and letters n) and s), may be attributed to other Regions by State Law, upon the initiative of the Region concerned, after consultation with the local authorities, in compliance with the principles set forth in art. 119. Said Law is approved by both Houses of Parliament with the absolute majority of their members, on the basis of an agreement between the State and the Region concerned.



Autonomous regions with special statute



Autonomous regions


Article 116 of the Italian Constitution grants to five regions (namely Sardinia, Sicily, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Aosta Valley and Friuli-Venezia Giulia) home rule, acknowledging their powers in relation to legislation, administration and finance. These regions became autonomous in order to take into account cultural differences and protect linguistic minorities. Moreover, the government wanted to prevent their secession from Italy after the Second World War.^[9]
Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol constitutes a special case. The region is nearly powerless, and the powers granted by the region's statute are mostly exercised by the two autonomous provinces within the region, Trentino and South Tyrol. In this case, the regional institution plays a coordinating role.^{[citation needed]}

If one has recently seen , that the Veneto has initiated

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2016/12/06/news/venexit_veneto_dice_si_a_bilinguismo_e_minoranza_etnica-153596879/

Brief English version below ............enacted on the 6th of December

The regional council in the northern Italian region of Veneto has approved a bill defining its population as a “minority.” The move has already been dubbed 'Venexit' and is widely seen as an additional step towards the region’s independence from Rome.

The bill, passed Tuesday evening, labels those hailing from Veneto as a “national minority,” meaning its natives could define their ethnicity as Venetian, La Repubblica reported.


It would also mean that the Venetian language – a separate tongue, despite often being referred to as a dialect of Italian – would be taught in schools and used in public institutions and on road signs. Public officials would have to pass an exam in Venetian in order to take office. Although the language was officially recognized by Veneto’s regional council in 2007, it is not currently recognized by the Italian state.
The bill could also pave the way for Veneto’s independence, with La Repubblica and other media already referring to the bill’s passage as 'Venexit,' after Britain's historic Brexit referendum, in which the country voted to leave the European Union.
“For us it’s important because we want to be considered as something different from the rest of the Italian people, because our region produces more and more and they give more resources, more and more resources to Italy and they receive less and less resources from the state,” Stefano Valdegamberi, deputy of the regional parliament of Venice, told RT.
“Our people have a very long history, very important history, identity, and they want it to be recognized,” he added.

Many of those in favor of Venetian independence argue that the region is weighed down by Italy's national debt, and claim the vote would protect and revive the region’s culture. They have referenced the German and Italian regions of South Tyrol and Trento, natives of which are protected under the European Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.


As per conversation with my cousin in the Veneto and the meetings she attended...............the aim is to place the Veneto into the classification of the above noted article 116 of the Italian Constituation, any stories of referendum of independence or similar is pure newspaper story telling

Very interesting! Thanks for translating it. I hope every Italian region to follow suit and bring regional languages back. It's a shame how they were all destroyed and how people in Piemonte, Lombardia and other regions have let the central government do that. I don't know much about history but Catalonians stood up for their language and now it's almost impossible to find something written in Spanish in Catalonia. Same happens, to a lesser extent, in the Basque Country.
That said, my question is: are regional languages like Piedmontese, Lombard and Venetian widely spoken? As for Piedmontese, Wikipedia says it has 1.6 million native speakers, which I doubt.

 

[Joey D]

Catalonia is a very special case, and a potential shining light to some of the Italian regions mentioned, but alas, the horse has well and truly bolted, almost zero chance of being able to emulate what the Catalan have achieved.

The Sicilian Parliament has had wide ranging powers since 1947, but has rarely used any of them. That was the time to save the Sicilian language. The opportunity is lost, once gone, it's gone forever.

 

[Benzgolv]

Yes... now that languages are almost lost they must be brought back to life like the jews did with Hebrew, which wasn't spoken for like 1000 years and now it's spoken by almost all Israelis.

 

[Angela]

Let it go, people. With the possible exception of the Veneto, the regional languages are gone as the primary mode of communication.

I don't agree with everything he said, but there is some good information here:
https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2012/06/27/the-reality-of-dialects-in-italy/

The data doesn't lie.
http://www3.istat.it/salastampa/comunicati/non_calendario/20070420_00/testointegrale.pdf

 

[Sile]

Another Italian Government formed ( 5th ) by the president.

The people have not had a vote since pre 2008

Italy runs on a system like the old Feudal system , where the people are "too ignorant " to vote properly ( as stated by some current politicians )