Politics Italian Constitutional Reform referendum

[Benzgolv]

Italian constitutional reform referendum will be held on December 4th and it will have consequences both for Italy and Europe's future.I'm really confused since a YES vote could give much power to the government and would help Beppe Grillo to form government if he wins the elections. His party, Movimento 5 Stelle, has called for a EU membership referendum, advocating to leave the European Union and the Eurozone.However, a NO vote will trigger unstability as Matteo Renzi would resign and this would also ease the way for Beppe Grillo to take office as his party is outperforming Renzi's one in polls.I'm worried about this since I'm thinking about moving to Europe with my Italian citizenship in two years for a master degree.Is there any Italian in the forum? Why would you vote YES/NO? Are people in Italy sick of the European Union and are they more likely to vote leave than remain?P.S: I don't know if there's already a thread about this, I couldn't find any.

 

[Sile]

Italian constitutional reform referendum will be held on December 4th and it will have consequences both for Italy and Europe's future.I'm really confused since a YES vote could give much power to the government and would help Beppe Grillo to form government if he wins the elections. His party, Movimento 5 Stelle, has called for a EU membership referendum, advocating to leave the European Union and the Eurozone.However, a NO vote will trigger unstability as Matteo Renzi would resign and this would also ease the way for Beppe Grillo to take office as his party is outperforming Renzi's one in polls.I'm worried about this since I'm thinking about moving to Europe with my Italian citizenship in two years for a master degree.Is there any Italian in the forum? Why would you vote YES/NO? Are people in Italy sick of the European Union and are they more likely to vote leave than remain?P.S: I don't know if there's already a thread about this, I couldn't find any.

Grillo will never get it ( he was convicted, neither will any of his party members ) , because the president can override the vote of the people and place an intremint government in.........like recent governments of Monti and Letta

this is democracy Italian style..........the people do not really have a say

 

[Azzurro]

Italian constitutional reform referendum will be held on December 4th and it will have consequences both for Italy and Europe's future.I'm really confused since a YES vote could give much power to the government and would help Beppe Grillo to form government if he wins the elections. His party, Movimento 5 Stelle, has called for a EU membership referendum, advocating to leave the European Union and the Eurozone.However, a NO vote will trigger unstability as Matteo Renzi would resign and this would also ease the way for Beppe Grillo to take office as his party is outperforming Renzi's one in polls.I'm worried about this since I'm thinking about moving to Europe with my Italian citizenship in two years for a master degree.Is there any Italian in the forum? Why would you vote YES/NO? Are people in Italy sick of the European Union and are they more likely to vote leave than remain?P.S: I don't know if there's already a thread about this, I couldn't find any.

I received the voting papers last week, I voted and sent my vote to the consulate. If this helps this summer when I went to Italy, all my cousins complained about paying too much taxes and that the government does nothing for them, and its true Italians are way too heavily taxed, I would say mixed feelings people either like Renzi or hate him, like in every other country.

 

[Benzgolv]

Grillo will never get it ( he was convicted, neither will any of his party members ) , because the president can override the vote of the people and place an intremint government in.........like recent governments of Monti and Lettathis is democracy Italian style..........the people do not really have a say

I didn't know that! Good to know he won't ever be Prime Minister. I thought the President had just a ceremonial role. Nontheless, I think it won't keep M5S out of power. Actually, what will keep them out of power is the horrible administrations of the M5S mayors elected this year, which at least in the case of Rome are a fiasco.

 

[Benzgolv]

I received the voting papers last week, I voted and sent my vote to the consulate. If this helps this summer when I went to Italy, all my cousins complained about paying too much taxes and that the government does nothing for them, and its true Italians are way too heavily taxed, I would say mixed feelings people either like Renzi or hate him, like in every other country.

I have family there too and they are worried about unemployement as well as taxes, which are very high (comparable to those of the nordic countries) and they have several corruption scandals.However, I think Renzi is trying to fix that. Giving the government more power to pass bills will maybe help make the reforms needed to fix the economy.

 

[Azzurro]

I have family there too and they are worried about unemployement as well as taxes, which are very high (comparable to those of the nordic countries) and they have several corruption scandals.However, I think Renzi is trying to fix that. Giving the government more power to pass bills will maybe help make the reforms needed to fix the economy.

To give you an example I have 2 cousins that graduated with Law degrees both can't find jobs along with another cousin who graduated to be a Pharmacist she's been unemployed for the last 6 months, their father my cousin is a doctor he saw half his pay cut in 2009. It may or may not help by giving more power to the government some people just don't trust Renzi or the Italian government, I think its going to be very close this referendum.

 

[Benzgolv]

To give you an example I have 2 cousins that graduated with Law degrees both can't find jobs along with another cousin who graduated to be a Pharmacist she's been unemployed for the last 6 months, their father my cousin is a doctor he saw half his pay cut in 2009. It may or may not help by giving more power to the government some people just don't trust Renzi or the Italian government, I think its going to be very close this referendum.

I will be a lawyer when I graduate in two years so I hope they find a job soon! What you say is true, I think the "social contract" in Italy is broken as no one trust the authorities. However, I think it varies a lot from region to region, since my Piedmontese family is much more confident in the government and I noted people in the Piedmont is pretty confident too. Maybe the southeners are more skeptical because of the mafia and corruption, don't you think? I don't know which part of Italy your family is from but this was my experience.

 

[Azzurro]

I will be a lawyer when I graduate in two years so I hope they find a job soon! What you say is true, I think the "social contract" in Italy is broken as no one trust the authorities. However, I think it varies a lot from region to region, since my Piedmontese family is much more confident in the government and I noted people in the Piedmont is pretty confident too. Maybe the southeners are more skeptical because of the mafia and corruption, don't you think? I don't know which part of Italy your family is from but this was my experience.

Thank you for your concerns, I hope so too My family is from Basilicata in the South, yes I would agree with you, the mafia is an everyday thing in the South and we cannot forget corruption as well, I traveled throughout the entire peninsula and only in South you started to see the roads were broken and full of pot holes. We went also with my mom's cousin and her husband is Tuscan from Livorno, so we stayed in his village in Tuscany, I noticed abit of the anti-government/anti-renzi sentiment, but he tells me Livorno is very communist or it used to be in terms of politics.

 

[Benzgolv]

Thank you for your concerns, I hope so too My family is from Basilicata in the South, yes I would agree with you, the mafia is an everyday thing in the South and we cannot forget corruption as well, I traveled throughout the entire peninsula and only in South you started to see the roads were broken and full of pot holes. We went also with my mom's cousin and her husband is Tuscan from Livorno, so we stayed in his village in Tuscany, I noticed abit of the anti-government/anti-renzi sentiment, but he tells me Livorno is very communist or it used to be in terms of politics.

I've never been to Livorno, but when I was in Florence two of my friends were communist so maybe Toscanians are more left-leaning. What I noticed in the Piedmont is that lots of people (incluiding part of my family) supported Lega Nord and were anti-immigrant. They didn't like southern Italian immigrants either. So yes, Italy is a small country but with strong regional identities and differences.

 

[Azzurro]

I've never been to Livorno, but when I was in Florence two of my friends were communist so maybe Toscanians are more left-leaning. What I noticed in the Piedmont is that lots of people (incluiding part of my family) supported Lega Nord and were anti-immigrant. They didn't like southern Italian immigrants either. So yes, Italy is a small country but with strong regional identities and differences.

Livorno is nice it has a lot of character, I toured most of Toscana, Firenze is nice, but for me Siena was the nicest, my cousins are similar to yours but the opposite they dislike Northern Italians, my cousins husband told me once he went to Venezia for work and he disliked it, they used to call him torrone (i'm not sure thats the proper spelling), yes it is but when it comes to soccer at least everyone is united.

 

[Benzgolv]

Livorno is nice it has a lot of character, I toured most of Toscana, Firenze is nice, but for me Siena was the nicest, my cousins are similar to yours but the opposite they dislike Northern Italians, my cousins husband told me once he went to Venezia for work and he disliked it, they used to call him torrone (i'm not sure thats the proper spelling), yes it is but when it comes to soccer at least everyone is united.

Siena was my favorite too, architecture and the oldest bank of the world Monte dei Paschi are amazing. And yes, southeners dislike northeners as much as northeners dislike southeners, but at least in the World Cup every four years they are all united hahah

 

[Azzurro]

Siena was my favorite too, architecture and the oldest bank of the world Monte dei Paschi are amazing. And yes, southeners dislike northeners as much as northeners dislike southeners, but at least in the World Cup every four years they are all united hahah

Siena is too nice, piazza del campo is surreal, I was there during the Palio di Siena, it was crazy and the parade before, just amazing, and don't forget the Euro as well :cool-v:

 

[Sile]

Livorno is nice it has a lot of character, I toured most of Toscana, Firenze is nice, but for me Siena was the nicest, my cousins are similar to yours but the opposite they dislike Northern Italians, my cousins husband told me once he went to Venezia for work and he disliked it, they used to call him torrone (i'm not sure thats the proper spelling), yes it is but when it comes to soccer at least everyone is united.

yes , true.. .....tuscans are torrone .............and sicilians are morocins ( dark ones )................what else.........oh yea, Africa starts at Rome.............there is a few more.......southerns call northerners from venice, magnagatti ( cat eaters ),.....polontoni ( fat polenta eaters ).....It is the same for every country

 

[Azzurro]

yes , true.. .....tuscans are torrone .............and sicilians are morocins ( dark ones )................what else.........oh yea, Africa starts at Rome.............there is a few more.......southerns call northerners from venice, magnagatti ( cat eaters ),.....polontoni ( fat polenta eaters ).....It is the same for every country

There's a Lino Banfi movie where he's speaking Barese to his friend and they jokingly put subtitles in Arabic , yeah for sure every country has their thing, I never heard the magnagatti wow that one is mean.

 

[Benzgolv]

yes , true.. .....tuscans are torrone .............and sicilians are morocins ( dark ones )................what else.........oh yea, Africa starts at Rome.............there is a few more.......southerns call northerners from venice, magnagatti ( cat eaters ),.....polontoni ( fat polenta eaters ).....It is the same for every country

Also the insult "va fa Napoli". I heard it from Joey on Friends and I don't know if it is used as an insult nowadays.

 

[Angela]

There we go...insightful analysis of Italy, Italians and Italian politics by diaspora Italians.


@Bengolz,
Well obviously, if Joey on Friends said it, it must be authentic.

@Sile,
I don't know in what alternate universe Tuscans were called terroni, but never mind.

@Azzurro,

The pejorative is terroni, as in people who work the earth. Torrone is a nougat candy!

If you people think that because you claim to have Italian ancestry you get away with making or "repeating" these kinds of disparaging comments and slurs you're mistaken. Any more of it and you'll get infractions.

Also, stay on topic.

 

[Sile]

There we go...insightful analysis of Italy, Italians and Italian politics by diaspora Italians.


@Bengolz,
Well obviously, if Joey on Friends said it, it must be authentic.

@Sile,
I don't know in what alternate universe Tuscans were called terroni, but never mind.

@Azzurro,

The pejorative is terroni, as in people who work the earth. Torrone is a nougat candy!

If you people think that because you claim to have Italian ancestry you get away with making or "repeating" these kinds of disparaging comments and slurs you're mistaken. Any more of it and you'll get infractions.

Also, stay on topic.

alternative universe? ................my mother still stirs her sister for marrying a tuscan from Lucca ......she calls tuscans torroni ....................you need to open your eyes and note just hang around the urban areas , but go to the rural towns as well

torrone ( nougat ) is venetian slang for desta dura ( stubbon people who do not compromise )

hope you are not calling my mother a liar!


maybe you mean the other venetian word of Teron ( southern Italians , but not sicilians )

or

maybe you refer to the 2015 arguments between the regions of Veneto and Toscana where the term Terroni was used......Renzi started this issue............google the issue yourself

 

[Azzurro]

Benzgolv, its still used where I live, Napolitani will always answer back "Napole e gia fatt'" in dialect of course.

Sile I mistakenly realized that it seemed I was talking about my cousins livornese husband, I was talking about my cousins husband from the south, so it would be teron.

Angela, I know we had we our differences before and I don't want an argument, I'll just say us diaspora should count as well as there are more Italians outside of Italy than living in Italy, plus some of us including myself are dual citizens.

Whatever the outcome is for the referendum us Italians got to stick by it and hope for the prosperity of Italy.

 

[Sile]

Benzgolv, its still used where I live, Napolitani will always answer back "Napole e gia fatt'" in dialect of course.

Sile I mistakenly realized that it seemed I was talking about my cousins livornese husband, I was talking about my cousins husband from the south, so it would be teron.

Angela, I know we had we our differences before and I don't want an argument, I'll just say us diaspora should count as well as there are more Italians outside of Italy than living in Italy, plus some of us including myself are dual citizens.

Whatever the outcome is for the referendum us Italians got to stick by it and hope for the prosperity of Italy.

I am afraid Renzi will loose......the trend with Brexit, and now trump......success for Le Pen will come as well early next year . The middle class of the west have been basically destroyed, they will vote for what they want and that means removing globalization and with that , the current italian government

Renzi wants more power for Rome and more power for a central government............I feel that is not what the people want. They know their own regions currently do the best they can fro them with the little money that Renzi gives them, so a Renzi win will mean less money again for the regions

 

[Benzgolv]

Well, we are just analysing the referendum from our Italian experience, as we are dual citizens Angela, I'm sorry if we deviated a bit. Azzurro I didn't know Neapolitans had an answer to that insult haha

I am afraid Renzi will loose......the trend with Brexit, and now trump......success for Le Pen will come as well early next year . The middle class of the west have been basically destroyed, they will vote for what they want and that means removing globalization and with that , the current italian governmentRenzi wants more power for Rome and more power for a central government............I feel that is not what the people want. They know their own regions currently do the best they can fro them with the little money that Renzi gives them, so a Renzi win will mean less money again for the regions

Sile, you have a good point, but I think lots of Italians don't want populism anymore since they, unlike France or USA, already had populist governments. It's impossible to predict the results of the referendum and I don't see anything positive on voting YES or NO, it's like both won't be good or bad for Italy's future. "The Economist" said that Italians should vote "NO" because it would facilitate a M5S government, but Financial Times said that a "NO" vote would trigger unstability in the Eurozone. I'm confused in this referendum and I don't know what to vote from a long distance (I vote in Argentina)