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Thread: Hun sample finds in Kazakstan

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Hun sample finds in Kazakstan

    from other forums

    Friday, November 25, 2016

    First news of Hunnic and Botai aDNA



    According to this Kazakh press report, remains from an elite Hunnic burial in what is now Hungary belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup L and mitochondrial (mtDNA) haplogroup D4j12.
    .................
    and
    ............

    http://www.np.kz/hotnewstop/20716-ka...nk-proekt.html

    The article in Russian, describes Kazakhstan DNA project. Among other things, there is an interview with Leyla Jansugurova, head of Institute of General Genetics of Kazakhstan. Here is the slightly edited automatic translation of the part of interview, where she speaks about aDNA(UPD: As far as I know, none of these results is published):

    Paleogenetics in Kazakhstan

    - Did this successful experience of collaborative interdisciplinary research by geneticists and historians continue?

    - Yes. Moreover, on the basis of our Institute of General genetics and Cytology in cooperation with the Institute of archaeology named after A. Kh. Margulan in 2014, the laboratory of population genetics was created. Its goal is to study the genetic structure of modern populations of Kazakhstan and determination of genetic relationships with the ancient nomadic tribes of Central Asia. To start we have compiled a directory of ancient human skeletal remains and important archaeological finds in Kazakhstan, related to the ethnogenesis of the Kazakhs and available for paleogenetics research.


    - I want to note that DNA analysis of bone remains from ancient graves very complicated and expensive method. It requires high tech equipment, supersterility of the experiment and staff development. Therefore, the selection of the bone material is very important. At first, we concentrated on artifacts representing ancient periods of the settlement of the territory of Kazakhstan and available for DNA analysis: it is a human skull from the settlement of Botai in Northern Kazakhstan, the skeleton of the Hun period from the natural history Museum (Budapest) and the remains of the so-called Urdzhar Princess. As you know, in 2014, in Urdzhar district of East Kazakhstan region in one of the kurgans, in a zone of reconstruction of the road Taskesken - Bakta, was found undisturbed burial of women of the Saka period. Under the kurgan in a stone sarcophagus there were remains of a young woman of noble birth. Analysis of ancient DNA showed that the age of burial - III-IV century BC, while mtDNA haplogroup of Urdzhar Princess - D4o. Haplogroup belongs to the “Asian branch”, who left a wide trail in the Eastern Altai, Siberia, the far North of Eurasia and among the indigenous population of America. The mother of the founder of this haplogroup lived between 9300 - 18 400 years ago in Northern Asia.

    As for the ancient Hun from Hungary, dated to the middle third of the V century, the type of burial and his outfit showed that this young man belonged to the Hun elite and may have been related by the origin to the ancient Turkic tribes of Kazakhstan. DNA analysis of an ancient Hun of the skeleton determined the haplogroup L of Y-chromosome and mtDNA D4j12, which is evidence of the Asian origin of the paternal and maternal lines of this ancient find from Europe. And, what is most interesting: the type of the Y-chromosome (L-haplogroup) was found among Kazakh tribe of Argyns!

    Exploring the skull from Botai, we found that it was a man, his mtDNA haplogroup is K1b2, which is of Eastern European origin and is very common in the modern population of Western Europe and America.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Ancient Hunnic chieftain had Y-DNA haplogroup L (source in Russian):

    http://www.np.kz/hotnewstop/20716-ka...nk-proekt.html

    (...) As for the ancient Hun from Hungary, dated to the middle third of the V century, the type of burial and his outfit showed that this young man belonged to the Hun elite and may have been related by the origin to the ancient Turkic tribes of Kazakhstan. DNA analysis of an ancient Hun of the skeleton determined the haplogroup L of Y-chromosome and mtDNA D4j12, which is evidence of the Asian origin of the paternal and maternal lines of this ancient find from Europe. And, what is most interesting: the type of the Y-chromosome (L-haplogroup) was found among Kazakh tribe of Argyns!

    Exploring the skull from Botai, we found that it was a man, his mtDNA haplogroup is K1b2, which is of Eastern European origin and is very common in the modern population of Western Europe and America.

    - Most interesting - his Y chromosome.

    - Unfortunately, haplogroup on the Y-chromosome, we did not have time to identify. We ran out of expensive reagents and the money allocated for research. In addition, we have assembled a genetic Bank that represents the current population of Kazakhstan is 1,524 with a detailed ancestry tree(shezhere), so the ethnic picture of the present, we can compare with the ancient finds. This is something we will work on.
    Subclades of Y-DNA haplogroup L today:

    http://i.imgur.com/TphXqAe.jpg


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    Thanks Tomenable

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    - Unfortunately, haplogroup on the Y-chromosome, we did not have time to identify.
    If it is not imbecilism, then I dont now, what is.

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    What time period we are talking about?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    What was his subclade, though? Because Huns appear in Europe in the 4th century AD supposedly. L1b could have been there much earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    What was his subclade, though? Because Huns appear in Europe in the 4th century AD supposedly. L1b could have been there much earlier.
    What do you mean,men?

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    I mean what I said. Since L1b exists all over Europe pretty much, if it was L1b it could have been 'native' (in the sense that it could have been there much earlier than the 4th century AD). If it was L1c or L1a most likely not.

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    As I wrote in the past, the Huns were originally an East Iranic tribe known as far back as in the Avesta as Xiiaona, they lived in the region later known as Bactria and Transoxania.

    With time passing other tribes joined the Huns. And the Huns known during the Roman times where a large confederation of the original Huns (Xionites) with Mongol and Turkic tribes. So no wonder that we find West_South_Central Asian yDNA and East Eurasian mtDNA among their ranks. Which is actually typical of the trend we see in Central Asia even today. What is kinda weird if we go by the assumption thrown around that the language was brought by the paternal ancestors. In this special case however it seems females had much bigger influence on it as we think.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    As I wrote in the past, the Huns were originally an East Iranic tribe known as far back as in the Avesta as Xiiaona, they lived in the region later known as Bactria and Transoxania.

    With time passing other tribes joined the Huns. And the Huns known during the Roman times where a large confederation of the original Huns (Xionites) with Mongol and Turkic tribes. So no wonder that we find West_South_Central Asian yDNA and East Eurasian mtDNA among their ranks. Which is actually typical of the trend we see in Central Asia even today. What is kinda weird if we go by the assumption thrown around that the language was brought by the paternal ancestors. In this special case however it seems females had much bigger influence on it as we think.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites
    Can you post a primary source?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    just a general remark of relative worth: I don't rely too much in this concept of "maternal" languages, it's to say the transmission by females very often from vainquished people. Personal thought only.

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    One of American indian hairstyle:
    In Eastern tribes like the Lenape and Iroquois tribes, most warriors shaved their heads except for a scalplock (a single lock of hair on the crown of their head)
    Indo Aryan Hairstyle

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...286#post494286

    Scythian hairstyle

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...286#post494286

    Hun was not exceptional at all:

    https://archive.org/stream/cu3192408.../n167/mode/2up

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    concerning hairs modes, I recall barbarian tribes (like us today) changed more than a time their hair fashion.
    And sometimes an ethnic group under political domination of another one, adopted the modes of this last one, not only for hair cut, but also until head (skull) deformation. So the ethnicity of some modes cannot always be too easily established, not in every case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Can you post a primary source?
    I just posted the source below my takes which you quoted dear.

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    The Argyn (Kazakh: Арғын) clan is a constituent of the Kazakh ethnicity. The present-day Argyns of Kazakhstan are generally regarded as descended from a nomadic people known as the Basmyl and both names are said to mean "mixed tribe".

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    concerning hairs modes, I recall barbarian tribes (like us today) changed more than a time their hair fashion.
    And sometimes an ethnic group under political domination of another one, adopted the modes of this last one, not only for hair cut, but also until head (skull) deformation. So the ethnicity of some modes cannot always be too easily established, not in every case.
    Scythian had elongated skull also, which meant “sun” in shamanism.
    As far as I know, hairstyle was not a fashion, but a tradition to nomad people. So the original descendants kept their tradition, I think.
    Think about the hairstyle of Magyar who shaved their heads except three long braids. This tradition has been kept until 19 century in East Europe.
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvV...20long&f=false

    Moreover, I think polish Sarmatianism from 16c to 18c was also the same case.

    Traditional Slavic Hair Styles:


    Maybe Yazidi man with plaited hair. Northern Iraq(I am not sure):


    same hair style in american indian:
    http://imageenvision.com/photo/7058-...d-bull-by-jvpd

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    I am planning to conduct such a study on more necropolises found in Hungary, Ukraine and Bulgaria. But no funding so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Scythian had elongated skull also, which meant “sun” in shamanism.
    As far as I know, hairstyle was not a fashion, but a tradition to nomad people. So the original descendants kept their tradition, I think.
    Think about the hairstyle of Magyar who shaved their heads except three long braids. This tradition has been kept until 19 century in East Europe.
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvV...20long&f=false

    Moreover, I think polish Sarmatianism from 16c to 18c was also the same case.

    Traditional Slavic Hair Styles:


    Maybe Yazidi man with plaited hair. Northern Iraq(I am not sure):

    Yes is a Yezidi Kurd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    As I wrote in the past, the Huns were originally an East Iranic tribe known as far back as in the Avesta as Xiiaona, they lived in the region later known as Bactria and Transoxania.

    With time passing other tribes joined the Huns. And the Huns known during the Roman times where a large confederation of the original Huns (Xionites) with Mongol and Turkic tribes. So no wonder that we find West_South_Central Asian yDNA and East Eurasian mtDNA among their ranks. Which is actually typical of the trend we see in Central Asia even today. What is kinda weird if we go by the assumption thrown around that the language was brought by the paternal ancestors. In this special case however it seems females had much bigger influence on it as we think.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites

    Wait wait wait, hold-up hod-up hud-up

    The "Hunnic migrations" consisted of a large confederation of tribes, especially in the end, but the Huns themselves, "original Huns", were likely Altaic speaking, probably Turkic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Wait wait wait, hold-up hod-up hud-up

    The "Hunnic migrations" consisted of a large confederation of tribes, especially in the end, but the Huns themselves, "original Huns", were likely Altaic speaking, probably Turkic.


    A number of people have concluded that the Huns spoke a Yeniseian language or even an Iranian language. A study of a Xiongnu graveyard found that nearly half the Y hgs were R and Q (the rest were C), suggesting they descended from a Okunevo or Karasuk people that had absorbed an Altaic population in Mongolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    A number of people have concluded that the Huns spoke a Yeniseian language or even an Iranian language. A study of a Xiongnu graveyard found that nearly half the Y hgs were R and Q (the rest were C), suggesting they descended from a Okunevo or Karasuk people that had absorbed an Altaic population in Mongolia.
    It's still impossible to know, but I think it's most likely Turkic. I have a ton of sources, but in the end you have to theorize. Some of the latter findings are what they think was Hunnic script that looks like Turkic.

    C, R, and Q are anywhere on the steppe and NE Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Wait wait wait, hold-up hod-up hud-up

    The "Hunnic migrations" consisted of a large confederation of tribes, especially in the end, but the Huns themselves, "original Huns", were likely Altaic speaking, probably Turkic.
    Read the link I provided. The first Huns to be ever mentioned are in the Avesta which predates the Hunnic appearance in European chronicles by thousands of years. They are called during that time Xioaonna. Even the Early Indo_Aryans knew them and called them Huna. Just as the term Turan which was basically a designation for East Iranics, it was later adopted for Turkic speakers.

    The original, first Huns (White Huns) were East Iranic tribe. Later with time when food good sparse in Central Asia all the South_Central_East Asian tribes merged into a confederation under the Proto Huns. And the new Huns were born.

    It doesn't matter what you or I think. The "sources" you mean are talking about the late state of Huns. As usual you don't interpret the things in the right way. If the Huns are mentioned in the Avesta as an East Iranic tribe thousand years before anything Turkic was even known. Those can't have been Turkic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    A number of people have concluded that the Huns spoke a Yeniseian language or even an Iranian language. A study of a Xiongnu graveyard found that nearly half the Y hgs were R and Q (the rest were C), suggesting they descended from a Okunevo(America Indian)or Karasuk people that had absorbed an Altaic population in Mongolia.
    Hunnic culture was closely related with Q1a2 culture which was connected to shang/ zhou in china.

    -20 graves of senior Asian Hun (also called by the Chinese name ’Xiongnu’), dating from the Third Century B.C.,

    Read more:
    http://www.kaogu.cn/en/Special_Events/dierjieshanghailuntan/2015/1222/52514.html

    [IMG]
    http://cdn.ruvr.ru/2012/12/13/1279490821/2012_12_13.jpg[/IMG]

    - shang dynasty tomb in china
    [img]
    http://gallery.sjsu.edu/sacrifice/shang%20tomb.jpg[/img]

    - zhou dynasty tomb in china
    [img]
    http://www.ancient-encounters.com/AESE/Discovery_files/%20r1.jpg[/img]

    -
    Olmec Chalcatzingo stone carving relic
    [img]http://www.ancient-encounters.com/AESE/Discovery_files/%20s_3.jpg[/img]

    “Ya” Shape

    The “ya” symbol represents the center of the universe; Two stone carvings are found in an important ruin, Chalcatzingo, of the Olmec culture in Mexico. The stone carvings depict zoomorphic figures with a mouth wide open representing the door between the worlds of the living and the dead. The opening of the mouth divides the boundaries between heaven and earth while the four corners facing inward allow space for four respective trees. The ya shape represents a cosmic diagram for the Olmec people with a big mouth and boundaries of heaven and earth in the four corners. Moreover, the trees assist in traversing between heaven and earth known as the four "cosmic trees”. This picture, the earth is square, but at each corner there are four trees, resulting in an inverted corner and creating a “ya” shape. In looking back at the “ya” shape, it raises a question: Did the “ya” shape from the Shang dynasty also form this way? Regarding Zong Miao Ming Tang that contains four cosmic trees, either “ruo tree”, “jian mu”, or “fusang”, were there indents because of these trees? In other words, is it because the Zong Miao Ming Tang had four trees, which resulted in the “ya” shape?




    Note: KC Chang, Qingtong Huichen
    - Archaeologists believe that this tomb was built to bury aristocrats from the state of Qi.
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...d-china-tomb1/


    ==> this tradition in nomad still in 557 to 581 AD
    [img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4N3bEG-rodM/Vngi09M5J_I/AAAAAAAAJyg/4C2Npj3Urd8/s1600/princess-large-tomb.jpg[/img]

    Tomb of a nomadic tribal princess will help unravel China’s complicated ethnic history
    Ancient Origins by Mark Millar 19 December 2015
    Chinese archaeologists have excavated the sixth century tomb of a nomadic tribal princess of the ancient Tuyuhun Kingdom in northwest China’s Shaanxi Province. In the tomb they found two skeletons and 166 grave artifacts, including bronze ware, warrior and animal statues and inscriptions



    Last edited by johen; 02-12-16 at 23:46.

  24. #24
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    they state a elite hun

    the type of burial and his outfit showed that this young man belonged to the Hun elite and may have been related by the origin to the ancient Turkic tribes of Kazakhstan. DNA analysis of an ancient Hun of the skeleton determined the haplogroup L of Y-chromosome and mtDNA D4j12, which is evidence of the Asian origin of the paternal and maternal lines of this ancient find from Europe

    so his father was also Hg L and also elite family

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    study of a Xiongnu graveyard found that nearly half the Y hgs were R and Q (the rest were C)
    Three main Xiongnu Y hgs were C, Q and N. R was small minority.

    Here are ancient DNA samples of Xiongnu/Hunnu haplogroups:

    Places of origin of samples (four graveyards, not just one):

    1) Egin Gol river valley cemetery in Mongolia
    2) Duurling Nars cemetery in Mongolia
    3) Barköl cemetery in Xinjiang, China
    4) Birlik cemetery in Kazakhstan


    Paternal lineages:

    East Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 82%):

    Haplo C2e - 3
    Haplo C2 - 7
    Haplo C - 1
    Haplo Q1a2 - 3
    Haplo Q1a3a - 3
    Haplo Q1b - 1
    Haplo N1c-Tat - 3
    Haplo O3a2 - 1

    West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 18%):

    Haplo R1a - 3
    Haplo R1b - 1
    Haplo I2c - 1

    Maternal lineages:

    East Asian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 83%):

    Haplo D4 - 19
    Haplo D4o1 - 9
    Haplo D5a - 1
    Haplo D5 - 1
    Haplo C - 4
    Haplo C4a1 - 1
    Haplo C5 - 1
    Haplo F1b - 4
    Haplo G2a - 1
    Haplo G2 - 1
    Haplo B4 - 1

    Uncertain origin mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 3%):

    Haplo M - 2

    West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 14%):

    Haplo U5a1a - 2
    Haplo U2e1 - 1
    Haplo U2 - 1
    Haplo J1 - 2
    Haplo H - 1

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