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Thread: ATP9 (MBA Iberia, ca. 1600 BC)

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    All you can ever do is insinuate that the idea of pre-Viking transatlantic contact is somehow absurd, when of course there's nothing absurd about it. You never dispute the mountain of historical, archeological, anthropological, and genetic evidence proving the presence of Europeans in the Americas before the Vikings, because you can't.
    What genetic evidence?

    Most of ancient Chachapoya genomes that you tested have very low SNP counts. With such low coverage, their autosomal results are uselesss. The only ones of relatively good quality are NA40 and NA42. I have just uploaded NA40 to GEDmatch and I don't see any European admixture there (this "North-European-Mesolithic" was actually a Mongoloid-admixed population similar to modern Saami people / Lapps, so they just shared some ancient Northern Siberian ancestry with Native Americans):

    GEDmatch kit Z656658, NA40, Laguna de Los Condores (ancient Peru), [1000-1500 AD]

    That guy was one of the Chachapoyas:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chachapoya_culture

    MDLP World-22 results:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Mesoamerican 51.43
    2 North-Amerind 33.41
    3 South-America_Amerind 5.88
    4 North-European-Mesolithic 4.7
    5 Paleo-Siberian 4.58

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Luiseno (derived) 8.82
    2 Huichol (derived) 12.07
    3 Mixtec (derived) 12.31
    4 Maya (derived) 13.48
    5 Cucupa (derived) 15.43
    6 Kumiai (derived) 21.12
    7 Apache (derived) 22.22
    8 Karitiana (derived) 28.37
    9 Colombian (derived) 28.86
    10 Cochimi (derived) 30.69
    11 Serrano (derived) 32.36
    12 Navajo (derived) 32.95
    13 Mexican (derived) 44.36
    14 Haida (derived) 45.92
    15 Miwok (derived) 47.42
    16 Tsimsian (derived) 51.5
    17 Pima (derived) 53.14
    18 Tlingit (derived) 53.61
    19 Mesomerican (ancestral) 59.91
    20 Costanoan (derived) 61.06

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 68.9% Huichol (derived) + 31.1% Apache (derived) @ 7.57
    2 88.5% Luiseno (derived) + 11.5% Navajo (derived) @ 7.76
    3 85.2% Huichol (derived) + 14.8% Tlingit (derived) @ 7.84
    4 83.9% Luiseno (derived) + 16.1% Apache (derived) @ 7.87
    5 95.4% Luiseno (derived) + 4.6% North-Amerind (ancestral) @ 7.88
    6 94.5% Luiseno (derived) + 5.5% Athabask (derived) @ 7.9
    7 93.4% Luiseno (derived) + 6.6% Tlingit (derived) @ 7.97
    8 77.9% Huichol (derived) + 22.1% Navajo (derived) @ 7.99
    9 68.9% Mixtec (derived) + 31.1% Apache (derived) @ 8.01
    10 96.8% Luiseno (derived) + 3.2% Paleo-Siberean (ancestral) @ 8.01
    11 83.4% Huichol (derived) + 16.6% Haida (derived) @ 8.08
    12 96.7% Luiseno (derived) + 3.3% Koryak (derived) @ 8.23
    13 88.4% Huichol (derived) + 11.6% Athabask (derived) @ 8.29
    14 77.8% Mixtec (derived) + 22.2% Navajo (derived) @ 8.3
    15 85.4% Mixtec (derived) + 14.6% Tlingit (derived) @ 8.32
    16 97.4% Luiseno (derived) + 2.6% North-European-Mesolithic (ancestral) @ 8.35
    17 71.8% Apache (derived) + 28.2% Pima (derived) @ 8.36
    18 94.5% Luiseno (derived) + 5.5% Haida (derived) @ 8.42
    19 96.5% Luiseno (derived) + 3.5% Chukchi (derived) @ 8.43
    20 97.4% Luiseno (derived) + 2.6% Bra1 (derived) @ 8.44

    ==============

    And also Eurogenes K15:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Amerindian 87.39
    2 Siberian 10.75
    3 Northeast_African 1.18
    4 Sub-Saharan 0.47
    5 Oceanian 0.21

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Pima 7.07
    2 Anzick-1 8.92
    3 Mayan 10.08
    4 Karitiana 18.59
    5 North_Amerindian 24.26
    6 East_Greenlander 65.86
    7 West_Greenlander 68.91
    8 MA-1 89.25
    9 Chukchi 93.18
    10 Koryak 103.9
    11 Shors 106.99
    12 Tatar 107.49
    13 Afghan_Hazara 107.5
    14 Afghan_Turkmen 107.74
    15 Uygur 107.76
    16 Uzbeki 107.78
    17 Hazara 108.32
    18 Nogay 108.48
    19 Chuvash 108.61
    20 Tadjik 108.83

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 87.3% Karitiana + 12.7% Evens @ 2.15
    2 87.1% Karitiana + 12.9% Dolgan @ 2.41
    3 87.4% Karitiana + 12.6% Evenki @ 2.41
    4 83.5% Karitiana + 16.5% Chukchi @ 2.54
    5 85% Karitiana + 15% Koryak @ 2.63
    6 87.2% Karitiana + 12.8% Yakut @ 3.01
    7 78.2% Karitiana + 21.8% East_Greenlander @ 3.03
    8 56.8% Karitiana + 43.2% North_Amerindian @ 3.76
    9 85.9% Karitiana + 14.1% Saqqaq @ 3.92
    10 79.2% Karitiana + 20.8% West_Greenlander @ 4.41
    11 94.3% Anzick-1 + 5.7% Evens @ 4.46
    12 85.9% Karitiana + 14.1% Ket @ 4.51
    13 94.3% Anzick-1 + 5.7% Evenki @ 4.61
    14 87.4% Karitiana + 12.6% Oroqen @ 4.65
    15 92.5% Anzick-1 + 7.5% Chukchi @ 4.69
    16 93.2% Anzick-1 + 6.8% Koryak @ 4.72
    17 86.3% Karitiana + 13.7% Selkup @ 4.72
    18 94.3% Anzick-1 + 5.7% Dolgan @ 4.74
    19 89.8% Anzick-1 + 10.2% East_Greenlander @ 4.88
    20 94.4% Anzick-1 + 5.6% Yakut @ 4.89

    ==============

    You cannot possibly be more purely Amerindian than this ancient Chachapoya guy.

    BTW - if you uploaded other Chachapoyas to GEDmatch, give me their kit numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Genetiker.
    You are too silent on your blog.
    There hasn't been any new data to analyze recently.

    Anyway. - Most of us do not understand How you could call M269 on ATP3 and not other people. Can you explain how you did it?
    I look at many more SNPs than others do.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post

    Isn't there hardly any writing remaining from the Gaulish language(s)? Plus, only having some writings and no living speakers definitely hurts any efforts to understand the language. Isn't it possible contact between Gaul and Britain caused them to exchange vocab and pronunciation(q-p). Or maybe after a first arrival of Celtic languages in Britain in 2300 BC, France and Britain stayed in constant contact and their languages changed together, then broke off, then exchanged vocab. If a place as large as Gaul spoke basically the same language in 50 BC why couldn't, for a time maybe in 1800 BC or whatever, Britain and France have spoken the same language?

    I'm not arguing for any of those sceniors I just think you're too confident in evidence that comes from sources as non-concrete as linguistics with extinct languages like Gaulish. I don't know anything about linguistics but I think I know enough to know it's difficult to make language age estimates or to know a lot about the origins of extinct languages and their relationship to modern languages.
    https://digilib.phil.muni.cz/bitstre...3-2008-1_4.pdf
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    DNA Land:



    Another one added to GEDmatch:

    Kit Z713184, NA42, Laguna de Los Condores (ancient Peru), [1000-1500 AD]

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    What genetic evidence?

    Most of ancient Chachapoya genomes that you tested have very low SNP counts. With such low coverage, their autosomal results are uselesss...
    Right, just pretend that Cieza de León didn't write the following about the Chachapoyas:

    These Indians of Chachapoyas are the whitest and most attractive of any that I have seen in the Indies, and their women are so beautiful that many of them were worthy to be wives of the Incas, and to be taken to the temples of the sun. To this day the Indian women of this race are exceedingly beautiful, for they are white and well formed. They go dressed in woolen clothes, like their husbands, and on their heads they wear their llautos, the sign by which they may be known in all parts.
    Just pretend that the photographs of Chachapoya remains with wavy brown and red European hair and not stiff black Mongoloid Amerindian hair, linked to on my blog, don't exist.

    Just pretend that the "Gringuito" descendants of the Chachapoyas don't have features like fair skin, blond and red hair, blue eyes, and freckles, which are typical of modern Northern Europeans, and not at all typical of modern Southern Europeans like Spaniards.

    You're wasting your time with the seven published Chachapoya samples. Willerslev, Bustamante, and Guillén deliberately excluded samples with European admixture from their paper.

    And if it's genetic evidence you want, then you can see the numerous analyses on my blog going back to a year and a half ago showing that a Chinchorro DNA sample dated to around 4000 BC was 30% European and 70% Amerindian. Analyses that were met with nothing but inane comments and a thread closure when I posted them on Anthrogenica, and which everybody has pretended never happened since then.

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    @Geneticker,

    To me it seems when that Colonial Spanish guy wrote "white" he was using it as an adjective for something besides skin color or color at all or race. Also, because we Americans use the word for the color white to refer to Europeans we wrongly interpret people from other cultures when they use the word white when it describes people's appearance. We use color words to describe people unliterally sometimes, like when we say someone is blue we don't mean they're literally blue.

    If Spanish found Northern European-looking people in South America I'm sure they would have said so. They knew about geography and knew it'd be strange if they found such people in America.

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    Going out of topic yet... what about to use Occam's razor: if red hair is debt by oxydization or mummyfication, if white chachapoyas werr so white by living in the cloud forests (when their neighbours in the coast and in the altiplanes were charred by the sun), if actual blue eyes of Gringuitos just is debt to some Conquistadores...
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    The Japanese, Koreans and Northern Chinese can also be called white based on their skin color.

    Maybe the Chachapoyas had Mongoloid skin-lightening mutations, rather than Caucasoid ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Geneticker,

    To me it seems when that Colonial Spanish guy wrote "white" he was using it as an adjective for something besides skin color or color at all or race. Also, because we Americans use the word for the color white to refer to Europeans we wrongly interpret people from other cultures when they use the word white when it describes people's appearance. We use color words to describe people unliterally sometimes, like when we say someone is blue we don't mean they're literally blue.
    Absurd rubbish.

    I can tell from the ignorance displayed in these comments that people don't even bother to look at what I've posted on my blog before ridiculing me and branding me a "kook".

    In my post "Statuettes of the White Gods" I included the following quote from Pedro Pizarro, cousin of Francisco Pizarro, describing the Incas in his 1571 work Relation of the discovery and conquest of the kingdoms of Peru:

    The people of this kingdom of Peru were white, swarthy in color, and among them the Lords and Ladies were whiter than Spaniards. I saw in this land an Indian woman and a child who would not stand out among white blonds. These people [of the upper class] say that they were the children of the idols.
    And in my post "The Chachapoyas" I noted that at 45:55 in the documentary "Carthage's Lost Warriors" a painting from the Inca period is shown depicting captured Chachapoya women, showing that they had white skin and red hair.

    If Spanish found Northern European-looking people in South America I'm sure they would have said so. They knew about geography and knew it'd be strange if they found such people in America.
    You're not paying attention. They did say so. They were indeed astonished to find White people among the dark-skinned Amerindians of the New World, and they duly noted it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Going out of topic yet... what about to use Occam's razor: if red hair is debt by oxydization or mummyfication
    No. Hair doesn't magically change color after death. Here's a quote from Warren Royal Dawson that Thor Heyerdahl included in the section "Tall stature, narrow face, and non-Mongoloid hair on Paracas mummies" in his 1952 work American Indians in the Pacific:

    From the examination of a large number of mummies both from Egypt and other countries including South America, my opinion is that hair does not undergo any marked change post-mortem. The hair of a wavy or curly individual remains curly or wavy, and that of a straight-haired person remains straight. In mummies and desiccated bodies the hair has a tendency to be crisp and brittle, but this is the natural result of the drying-up of the sebaceous glands, which during life, feed fatty matter into the hair follicles which keeps the hair supple and flexible. … it seems to me very unlikely that any change in colour would take place in a body which had never been exposed to the light, … To sum up then, all the evidence I have indicates that the nature of hair does not alter after death except in becoming dry and brittle.
    And as I said above, a painting from the Inca period depicts Chachapoya women as having white skin and red hair.

    Also, the hair of many ancient Peruvian mummies is European rather than Amerindian not only in its color, but also in its structure. See my post "More proof of Whites in ancient Peru and Chile".

    if white chachapoyas werr so white by living in the cloud forests (when their neighbours in the coast and in the altiplanes were charred by the sun), if actual blue eyes of Gringuitos just is debt to some Conquistadores...
    No, they're white because of their European admixture, as genetic testing of the Gringuitos has shown. That same testing has shown that the red hair found in the Gringuitos is of European origin.

    If you look at the photographs of Gringuitos in my post "More proof of Whites in ancient Peru and Chile", then you'll realize that there's no way that the physical features they possess can possibly be due to admixture from Spaniards. Their features look more like the features of the Irish than any other European population I've seen.

    Percy Fawcett saw similar-looking white natives on the Amazon, which he described as "people with red hair and blue eyes like a gringo". He explicitly stated that "They are not albinos". He recorded the following story he heard from the manager of a French rubber colony in 1906–7:

    There are white Indians on the [river] Acre. My brother went up … in a launch, and one day, well up river, was told that white Indians were near. He didn't believe it and scoffed at the men who told him, but nevertheless went out in a canoe and found unmistakable signs of Indians. The next thing he knew, he and his men were being attacked by big, well-built, handsome savages, pure white with red hair and blue eyes. They fought like devils too. … Many people say these white Indians don't exist, and, when it's proved they do, that they are half-breeds, mixtures of Spanish and Indians. That's what people say who never saw them, but those who have seen them think differently.

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    Genetiker, have you tested also MARC1492, or only samples from South America?

    GEDmatch Z648313 = MARC1492, Native Mi'kmaq from Canada, 1550-1700 AD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker
    the hair of many ancient Peruvian mummies is European rather than Amerindian not only in its color, but also in its structure
    Not specifically European, but - generally - Caucasoid.

    Ancient North Eurasians were Caucasoid and Amerindians are not pure Mongoloids, but a Mongoloid-Caucasoid hybrid population. Probably among some individuals and sub-populations those Caucasoid features were more pronounced.

    Australoid and Polynesian admixtures were also undoubtedly present in Pre-Columbian America.

    There is no doubt that Polynesians visited South America, traded and mixed with the locals.

    Have you noticed any signals of Polynesian admixture in your South American samples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    Right, just pretend that Cieza de León didn't write the following about the Chachapoyas:

    These Indians of Chachapoyas are the whitest and most attractive of any that I have seen (...)
    Cieza de Leon was Spanish, right?

    This guy is probably (?) 99% Spanish:



    This is a 99% Native American person:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l12eckFp2tM



    Question - who has whiter skin ???

    ============================

    Peruvian ancestry by region according to Sandoval 2013 (Table 1. on page 5):

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...bian_ancestors

    Population size by region: http://www.pqs.pe/sites/default/file...eru_inei_0.png

    According to Sandoval, Peruvians have some Oceanian (Polynesian) admixture.

    I added it to Amerindian, because in my opinion all/most of it is Pre-Columbian:

    % of Peru's population region of Peru Amerind* admixture Europid admixture African admixture (sample size)
    4,9% Cajamarca 0,748 0,223 0,029 (67)
    4,1% Lambayeque 0,823 0,145 0,033 (31)
    28,4% Provincia Lima 0,833 0,143 0,023 (43)
    2,7% San Martin 0,895 0,087 0,018 (18)
    2,2% Ayacucho 0,897 0,081 0,022 (31)
    1,6% Uayli 0,906 0,08 0,014 (10)
    4,4% Junin 0,911 0,061 0,028 (29)
    1,4% Amazonas 0,922 0,054 0,024 (15)
    4,1% Arequipa 0,94 0,048 0,012 (71)
    3,7% Ancash 0,946 0,037 0,017 (11)
    3,3% Loreto 0,952 0,035 0,013 (79)
    3,0% Region Lima 0,968 0,02 0,012 (15)
    4,2% Cusco 0,97 0,019 0,008 (19)
    1,5% Apurimac 0,977 0,016 0,007 (9)
    4,6% Puno 0,981 0,011 0,008 (103)
    74,1% 3/4 PERU average 0,881 (~88%) 0,098 (~10%) 0,020 (~2%) (551)
    6,0% La Libertad (0)
    5,9% Piura (0)
    3,2% Callao (0)
    2,8% Huánuco (0)
    2,5% Ica (0)
    1,6% Huancavelica (0)
    1,1% Tacna (0)
    1,0% Pasco (0)
    0,8% Tumbes (0)
    0,6% Moquegua (0)
    0,4% Madre de Dios (0)
    100,0% total PERU average ? ? ? (551+)

    *Oceanian and East Asian added to Amerindian.

    ==============================

    And a map based on regional data posted above:

    Regions of Peru:

    http://theonlyperuguide.com/wp-conte...p-Regions1.jpg

    Amerindian ancestry:

    http://i.imgur.com/PAA1KQe.png



    Peru is one of the most Amerindian countries. However, Bolivia is even more Amerindian.

    I checked admixture averages for Bolivian reference populations in GEDmatch calculators:

    1) HarappaWorld:

    Bolivian - 90,5% Amerindian, 9% European, 0,5% African

    2) MDLP K23b:

    Quechua Bolivia - 99% Amerindian, 1% European, 0% African
    Bolivian La Paz - 98% Amerindian, 2% European, 0% African
    Bolivian Cochabamba - 93% Amerindian, 7% European, 0% African
    Bolivian Pando - 91% Amerindian, 8,5% European, 0,5% African
    Bolivian* - 88% Amerindian, 12% European, 0% African

    [*where is this sample from, perhaps from several different locations?]

    3) puntDNAL K10:

    Bolivian1 - 97% Amerindian, 3% European, 0% African
    Bolivian2 - 85% Amerindian 14% European, 1% African

    [where are these two samples from, why is there such a big difference?]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Finally a Bronze Age Iberian uploaded to GEDmatch:

    ATP9 (Middle Bronze Age Iberia, 1700-1518 BC).


    GEDmatch kit number: M116706

    Results in Eurogenes K15:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Atlantic 44.39
    2 West_Med 37.4
    3 North_Sea 17.71
    4 Baltic 0.49

    Single Population Sharing:
    ==========================

    In a PCA (based on Eurogenes K15 scores), ATP9 plots far away from modern Spanish guy:

    http://i.imgur.com/zDUZ41R.png

    Good job Tomenable.
    I think he is still very like neolithic Iberian, just for some reason having more WHG than Copper Age guy. It might mean that IE didn't invade Spain yet, or they did but most of population didn't mix with newcomers yet. It takes a thousand of years and more to have well mixed society.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The Japanese, Koreans and Northern Chinese can also be called white based on their skin color.

    Maybe the Chachapoyas had Mongoloid skin-lightening mutations, rather than Caucasoid ones.
    Only a small percentage of the Mongoloid populations you mention have skin that could be described as white. Most of them have skin that ranges from yellow to brown.

    And Amerindians don't have the Mongoloid depigmentation mutations. They arose in Asia long after Amerindians had branched off from the Asian Mongoloids.

    And we know from the genetic analyses of the Gringuito descendants of the Chachapoyas that they have the European features they do because they have a significant amount of European admixture.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Genetiker, have you tested also MARC1492, or only samples from South America?

    GEDmatch Z648313 = MARC1492, Native Mi'kmaq from Canada, 1550-1700 AD.
    All 23 ancient American samples from the paper that included MARC1492 have appeared in all my admixture analyses for about a year and a half now.

    Not specifically European, but - generally - Caucasoid.
    Many European populations have hair that is considerably finer than the hair of Middle Eastern and North African Caucasoids, and some ancient Peruvian hair approaches the hair of those European populations in its fineness.

    Ancient North Eurasians were Caucasoid and Amerindians are not pure Mongoloids, but a Mongoloid-Caucasoid hybrid population. Probably among some individuals and sub-populations those Caucasoid features were more pronounced.
    You don't have to tell me that Amerindians are Mongoloid-Caucasoid hybrids. You're talking to the first person to ever show using DNA that that's what they are. Who did so eight months before Willerslev took credit for "revealing" it. Who was attacked by Dienekes and regarded as a "kook" for saying so, at a time when everybody believed David Reich's preposterous claim that Northern Europeans are Mediterranean-Amerindian hybrids.

    The fact that Amerindians have Caucasoid admixture is irrelevant to comparisons involving their hair, because it's the 370A EDAR mutation that causes Mongoloid hair structure, and that mutation is fixed or close to being fixed in all pure Amerindian populations. Amerindians have even higher frequencies of the EDAR mutation than most Asian Mongoloid populations do.

    And, anyway, the point is that ancient Peruvian hair is structurally European compared not to Asian Mongoloid hair, but to multiple and diverse samples of Amerindian hair.

    Australoid and Polynesian admixtures were also undoubtedly present in Pre-Columbian America.
    So you have zero doubt that Australoids and Taiwanese-Melanesian hybrids crossed the Pacific, against the prevailing winds and currents, to reach the Americas, but the idea that Europeans crossed the Atlantic, aided by the prevailing winds and currents, is absurd to you. At least we now know where your prejudices lie.

    There is no doubt that Polynesians visited South America, traded and mixed with the locals.
    No, what really happened is that the White Gods of South America traveled out into the Pacific, aided by the prevailing winds and currents, to the islands of Polynesia, where they established civilization again.

    Have you noticed any signals of Polynesian admixture in your South American samples?
    Nothing that I would say rises to the level of signficance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    So you have zero doubt that Australoids and Taiwanese-Melanesian hybrids crossed the Pacific
    Only Taiwanese-Melanesian hybrids did. Australoid-admixed people came much earlier, and they did not cross the Pacific.

    This is how they came in my opinion (remember that the Ainu and the Aleuts have some of this Australoid admixture too):

    http://oi68.tinypic.com/i2ovtj.jpg



    The second wave were Polynesians, but they mostly admixed Andean tribes, not those deep inside Brazil like Karitiana:

    http://i.imgur.com/okkSeZx.jpg


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Ancient North Eurasians were Caucasoid and Amerindians are not pure Mongoloids, but a Mongoloid-Caucasoid hybrid population. Probably among some individuals and sub-populations those Caucasoid features were more pronounced.
    If you're referring to Caucasoid skull features, Caucasoid hair doesn't have to always be on Caucasoid heads. How do we know ANE had Caucasoid skulls anyways? They had a very distant relationship with WHG, who we can definitely say had Caucasoid skulls, but that doesn't mean ANE did.

    What is Caucasoid hair or Caucasoid phenotype anyways? You and I haven't seen many Middle Easterners. I don't know if they could fall under a very defining pan West Eurasian Caucasian phenotype. They share features with Europeans but maybe not much. What you're calling Caucasoid might only be European.

    We don't fully understand the relationship between the four Holocene ancestors of Europeans. The defining features of Europeans can't come from only one of them. So, where did the European aka Caucasoid(?) look come from? We can't give a definite answer. All I'm saying is we have no idea what ANE looked like.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is just my opinion, I think race/genetic grouping usually doesn't determine much of our phenotype, beyond superficial things like skin color, hair, color, and hair texture. Our Facial features are determined by universal human variation, especially gender, more than anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Cieza de Leon was Spanish, right?

    This guy is probably (?) 99% Spanish:
    An absurd cherry-picked example. You must have spent some time looking for the darkest Spaniard you could find. The vast majority of Spaniards aren't that dark.

    This is a 99% Native American person:

    Question - who has whiter skin ???
    Anybody can look at a map of human skin color and see that, cherry-picked extreme outliers aside, Peruvian Indians are much darker than Spaniards:

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...stribution.jpg


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    Geneticker your quotes are interesting. Can you provide sources?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Genetiker, if a barely scientific statement of Thor Heyerdahl ("it seems to me") from the fifties is your best source to avoid other explanations as climatology, chemicals used in mummification, or other cases I lose interest very quick in such discussion, moreover when it's possible to find out "blondes" among Indonesian tribes...

    a-picture-made-available-on-24-august-2012-shows-a-relative-cleans-fr2by2.jpg

    And as I said above, a painting from the Inca period depicts Chachapoya women as having white skin and red hair.
    there is a lot of decoloration in ancient pottery and statues, do you know, or not?

    For the "European" gringuitos, can you prove that they have not received a recent Spanish admixture? or do you prefer to just don't look at it?

    For the "Irish" aspect of Gringuitos... (what a scientific proof to deal?), you can look at those "Irish" kids from north Spain

    foto_visita_627.jpg

    foto_visita_637.jpg

    So it seems that you get the best proofs for Europeans in pre-Columbine America and just dismiss the Occam's razor as inconvenient for your thinkings.

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    Genetiker,

    Quality / coverage of Chachapoya genomes, listed from best to worst:

    NA42, file size 17944 KB
    NA40, file size 17155 KB
    NA39, file size 5010 KB
    NA41, file size 3335 KB
    NA50, file size 2942 KB
    NA47, file size 2542 KB
    NA43, file size 1812 KB

    Better quality samples have more of Amerindian ancestry in DNA.Land:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post495524
    Last edited by Tomenable; 29-11-16 at 15:38.

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    Could anybody upload the ATP9 sample in dna.land? My guess is 75% Southwestern Europe and 25% Sardinian

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    That's his HarappaWorld Admixture proportions. Yamnayans had just NE Euro and Baloch.

    Population
    S-Indian -
    Baloch -
    Caucasian 7.33
    NE-Euro 36.77
    SE-Asian -
    Siberian -
    NE-Asian -
    Papuan -
    American -
    Beringian -
    Mediterranean 55.74
    SW-Asian -
    San -
    E-African -
    Pygmy -
    W-African 0.15

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    CA Iberia, ATP2, M849224 BA Iberian, ATP9, M116706 CO1 Hungary BR1 Hungary Unetice I0116, M425717
    Population Population Population Population Population
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch - Baloch - Baloch - Baloch 3.15 Baloch 12.21
    Caucasian 4.19 Caucasian 7.33 Caucasian 19.26 Caucasian 14.73 Caucasian 2.27
    NE-Euro 24.19 NE-Euro 36.77 NE-Euro 16.74 NE-Euro 46.18 NE-Euro 58.33
    SE-Asian 0.23 SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0.2 SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian - Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.23 Papuan - Papuan - Papuan 0.18 Papuan -
    American - American - American - American - American 0.88
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian - Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 63.33 Mediterranean 55.74 Mediterranean 55.37 Mediterranean 31.73 Mediterranean 26.25
    SW-Asian 5.14 SW-Asian - SW-Asian 8.52 SW-Asian 3.33 SW-Asian -
    San - San - San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy 0.07
    W-African 2.69 W-African 0.15 W-African 0.1 W-African 0.48 W-African -

    I couldn't find Iberian Early Neolithic to check first farmers there.

    Looks like source of BA Iberian change could have come from Hungarian Bronze age.
    More explanation here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...emporary/page6

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Conclusion: the actual local population is autosomaly similar to ATP9, so no big population replacements after ATP9. The BB stay long there also.
    It is not what I read on theis PCA: modern Spain is between North and ATP9; or I missed something in your statement? It's true this "map" lacks explanation for some plots...

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