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Thread: ATP9 (MBA Iberia, ca. 1600 BC)

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    ATP9 (MBA Iberia, ca. 1600 BC)

    Finally a Bronze Age Iberian uploaded to GEDmatch:

    ATP9 (Middle Bronze Age Iberia, 1700-1518 BC).


    GEDmatch kit number: M116706

    Results in Eurogenes K15:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Atlantic 44.39
    2 West_Med 37.4
    3 North_Sea 17.71
    4 Baltic 0.49

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 French_Basque 12.34

    2 Spanish_Aragon 17.77
    3 Southwest_French 18.44
    4 Spanish_Cantabria 18.47
    5 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 19.44
    6 Spanish_Valencia 20.59
    7 Spanish_Andalucia 20.65
    8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 22.53
    9 Spanish_Murcia 22.72
    10 Spanish_Cataluna 22.81
    11 Spanish_Extremadura 23.01
    12 Portuguese 23.92
    13 Spanish_Galicia 24.93
    14 North_Italian 28.02
    15 Sardinian 28.73
    16 French 29.09
    17 South_Dutch 32.41
    18 Southwest_English 32.89
    19 Tuscan 33.54
    20 Southeast_English 34.42

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 79.9% French_Basque + 20.1% Sardinian @ 10.35
    2 100% French_Basque + 0% Abhkasian @ 12.34
    3 100% French_Basque + 0% Adygei @ 12.34

    4 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Hazara @ 12.34
    5 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Pashtun @ 12.34
    6 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Tadjik @ 12.34

    7 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Turkmen @ 12.34
    8 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 12.34
    9 100% French_Basque + 0% Algerian @ 12.34
    10 100% French_Basque + 0% Algerian_Jewish @ 12.34
    11 100% French_Basque + 0% Altaian @ 12.34
    12 100% French_Basque + 0% Anzick-1 @ 12.34
    13 100% French_Basque + 0% Armenian @ 12.34
    14 100% French_Basque + 0% Ashkenazi @ 12.34
    15 100% French_Basque + 0% Assyrian @ 12.34
    16 100% French_Basque + 0% Austrian @ 12.34
    17 100% French_Basque + 0% Austroasiatic_Ho @ 12.34
    18 100% French_Basque + 0% Azeri @ 12.34
    19 100% French_Basque + 0% Balkar @ 12.34
    20 100% French_Basque + 0% Balochi @ 12.34

    ==========================

    In a PCA (based on Eurogenes K15 scores), ATP9 plots far away from modern Spanish guy:

    http://i.imgur.com/zDUZ41R.png


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    What do you think ???

    IMO it shows that there were no Indo-Europeans in Iberia before 1500 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    IMO it shows that there were no Indo-Europeans in Iberia before 1500 BC.
    To me ATP9 shows the opposite. In every ADMIXTURE test he shows an ANE-signal. He's the first ancient Iberian genome with Steppe ancestry. It's probably not a councidence he is our only non pre-Bell Beaker Iberian genome. Bell Beaker may have brought R1b-DF27, Steppe ancestry, and IE languages(maybe Celtic).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    To me ATP9 shows the opposite. In every ADMIXTURE test he shows an ANE-signal. He's the first ancient Iberian genome with Steppe ancestry.
    But only less than 3%. Eurogenes ANE K7:

    Population
    ANE 2.79
    ASE -
    WHG-UHG 74.26
    East_Eurasian -
    West_African -
    East_African 0.21
    ENF 22.74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But only less than 3%. Eurogenes ANE K7:

    Population
    ANE 2.79
    ASE -
    WHG-UHG 74.26
    East_Eurasian -
    West_African -
    East_African 0.21
    ENF 22.74
    Yet in every test he consistently shows an ANE signal. No matter how you spin it he had Steppe ancestry.

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    You are probably right. We should check all available Copper Age Iberians for comparison.

    Here are some recently uploaded ones (by MfA):

    GEDmatch / Sample

    M422959 / ATP16 Iberia Pre-Bell Beaker/Chalcolithic [3211-2866 BC] X2c -
    M784782 / I1281 Iberia Chalcolithic [2880-2630 BC] H1t -
    M734278 / I1303 Iberia Chalcolithic [2880-2630 BC] U3a1 Y-DNA = I2a1a1-L158
    M216291 / I1314 Iberia Chalcolithic [2880-2630 BC] J2a1a1 Y-DNA = G2a-PF3141
    M855364 / I1280 Iberia Chalcolithic [2880-2630 BC] J1c1 -
    M874014 / I1274 Iberia Chalcolithic [2880-2630 BC] H3 Y-DNA = I2a2-L181

    I checked ATP16 (M422959) and there is no ANE admixture:

    Population
    ANE -
    ASE -
    WHG-UHG 68.62
    East_Eurasian -
    West_African -
    East_African -
    ENF 31.38

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    Interestingly, I have R1b-DF27>L617 and this subclade (L617) is ca. 4300 years old.

    However, there was probably no R1b and no ANE admixture in Iberia 4300 years ago.

    So it seems that L617 migrated from Poland to Iberia rather than the other way around.

    Unetice culture is also around 4300 years old. Maybe L617 was originally part of Unetice:



    Compare that with the modern distribution of R1b-L617 (the map is incomplete of course):



    L617 correlates with Celts and with mining (for example it is very common in Cornwall):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining...rly_Bronze_Age

    Mining in Cornwall has existed from the early Bronze Age Britain around 2150 BC.
    It is believed that the Unetice culture were Proto-Celts.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    You can't compare the processes that went on in Central Europe, much less a northern Europe which was very low in population, to what went on in southern Europe.

    Look at the Yamnaya percentages for Spaniards:


    It makes perfect sense to me that he's Basque like.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You can't compare the processes that went on in Central Europe, much less a northern Europe which was very low in population, to what went on in southern Europe.

    Look at the Yamnaya percentages for Spaniards:

    It makes perfect sense to me that he's Basque like.
    But I wonder how could R1b in Iberia or Italy rise to so high frequencies despite relatively small autosomal impact.

    Obviously there was still some autosomal impact, because Remedello people resembled Sardinians, not Italians.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    My hypothesis for today (based on DNA, but in fact it is in agreement with archaeology) is that Proto-Celts (maybe Proto-Italo-Celts?), Proto-Germanics and Proto-Balto-Slavs all had their ethnogenesis during the Bronze Age, in 3 archaeological cultures:

    1) Nordic Bronze Age = Proto-Germanic
    2) Unetice culture = Proto-[Italo]-Celtic
    3) Trzciniec culture = Proto-Balto-Slavs

    We already have ancient DNA from 1) and 2) and very soon we will have ancient DNA also from 3).

    Interestingly, present-day Poland is located in the middle between those 3 archaeological cultures:

    https://i.imgur.com/KzvBnze.png

    Last edited by Tomenable; 26-11-16 at 18:45.

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    If ATP9 is the first ancient from Iberia with Steppe admixture, then it means that it took Indo-Europeans ca. 1500 years to get to Iberia from the Steppe. Assuming that they started expanding from the Steppe ca. 3500-3000 BC, and first groups came to Spain ca. 2000-1500 BC. Of course those groups did not enter Iberia directly from the Steppe, but from somewhere in the middle of Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    What do you think ???

    IMO it shows that there were no Indo-Europeans in Iberia before 1500 BC.
    I think that Indo-Europeans reached parts of Iberia (e.g. south-east Spain) as early as 1800 BCE, as this is when the Bronze Age appears, but spread very slowly in a patchwork manner around the penninsula, and only really covered most (but not all) regions by 1200 BCE.

    This MBA Iberian genome clearly shows some sign of Steppe ancestry. It is obviously much lower than in Central Europe a millennium earlier because Steppe ancestry progressively got diluted at each generation of interbreeding with local women. I would be very interested to see this sample's Dodecad K12b to see the percentage of Gedrosia and North European. Is it available at GEDMatch? (believe it or not I do not have a GEDMatch account yet).
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I think that Indo-Europeans reached parts of Iberia (e.g. south-east Spain) as early as 1800 BCE, as this is when the Bronze Age appears, but spread very slowly in a patchwork manner around the penninsula, and only really covered most (but not all) regions by 1200 BCE.

    This MBA Iberian genome clearly shows some sign of Steppe ancestry. It is obviously much lower than in Central Europe a millennium earlier because Steppe ancestry progressively got diluted at each generation of interbreeding with local women. I would be very interested to see this sample's Dodecad K12b to see the percentage of Gedrosia and North European. Is it available at GEDMatch? (believe it or not I do not have a GEDMatch account yet).
    Here are his Dodecad K12b results

    1 Atlantic_Med 67.21
    2 North_European 24.2
    3 Caucasus 7.61
    4 Northwest_African 0.9
    5 Southeast_Asian 0.08

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    And now, here is what he gets by using K7 Basal-rich and nMonte


    "Baalberge_MN:I0560" 44.3
    "Iberia_MN:I0408" 18
    "Iceman_MN:Iceman" 16.5
    "Loschbour:Loschbour" 15
    "Yamnaya_Temrta:RISE546" 6.2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Is it available at GEDMatch? (believe it or not I do not have a GEDMatch account yet).
    Yes it is available. You can still create a GEDmatch account even if you did not test your own DNA.

    And you can use it for testing other DNA samples (as long as you know their kit numbers, of course).

    ==========================

    Here is a list of post-Neolithic ancient Y-DNA and GEDmatch kits from Iberia and Italy:

    Y-DNA haplogroups and autosomal DNA of Copper Age Iberians:

    Sample / (dating) / Y-DNA / GEDmatch kit / Single Pop. Sharing in Eurogenes K15:

    ATP16 (3211-2866 BC) - woman - M422959 - Sardinians
    ATP12 (3010-2879 BC) - I2a2a2
    ATP17 (3007–2871 BC) - I2a2a
    ATP2 (2899-2678 BC) - H2 - M849224 - Sardinians
    I1300 (2880-2630 BC) - woman - M547763 - Sardinians
    I1281 (2880-2630 BC) - woman - M784782 - Sardinians
    I1303 (2880-2630 BC) - I2a1a1 - M734278 - Sardinians
    I0581 (2880-2630 BC) - I2a2a1
    I1284 (2880-2630 BC) - I
    I1302 (2880-2630 BC) - G2a2b2b
    I1314 (2880-2630 BC) - G2a - M216291 - Sardinians
    I1280 (2880-2630 BC) - woman - M855364 - Sardinians
    I1274 (2880-2630 BC) - I2a2 - M874014 - Basques
    I1277 (2568-2346 BC) - I2a2a

    Bronze Age:

    ATP9 (1700-1518 BC) - woman - M116706 - Basques

    Y-DNA haplogroups and autosomal DNA of Remedello culture Italians:

    Sample / (dating) / Y-DNA / GEDmatch kit / Single Pop. Sharing in Eurogenes K15:

    RISE487 (3483-3107 BC) - I2a1a1 - T699825 - Sardinians
    RISE489 (2908-2578 BC) - I2a1a1a - T135721 - Sardinians
    RISE486 (2134-1773 BC) - I2a1a1a - T319214 - Sardinians

    Simply SHOCKING !!! "Genetical Sardinians" everywhere. And a few Basques. But no any R1b.

    According to Genetiker, there was one R1b (ATP3), but this doesn't change the general picture:

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...nze-age-spain/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    My hypothesis for today (based on DNA, but in fact it is in agreement with archaeology) is that Proto-Celts (maybe Proto-Italo-Celts?), Proto-Germanics and Proto-Balto-Slavs all had their ethnogenesis during the Bronze Age, in 3 archaeological cultures:

    1) Nordic Bronze Age = Proto-Germanic
    2) Unetice culture = Proto-[Italo]-Celtic
    3) Trzciniec culture = Proto-Balto-Slavs

    We already have ancient DNA from 1) and 2) and very soon we will have ancient DNA also from 3).

    Interestingly, present-day Poland is located in the middle between those 3 archaeological cultures:

    https://i.imgur.com/KzvBnze.png

    It's really not a hypothesis if you do not provide evidence let alone flesh out the reasoning behind your assertions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    According to Genetiker, there was one R1b (ATP3), but this doesn't change the general picture:

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...nze-age-spain/
    Quite to the contrary, R1b1a1a2 in Eneolithic Spain would change the general picture drastically. Let's wait for official confirmation though.

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    not to discuss but : is ANE everytime a signal of Steppes, North Caucasus?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But I wonder how could R1b in Iberia or Italy rise to so high frequencies despite relatively small autosomal impact.

    Obviously there was still some autosomal impact, because Remedello people resembled Sardinians, not Italians.
    Just about no where in southern Europe is Steppe ancestry small. 20-30% isn't small and you have to consider it was brought to Southern Europe admixed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helgenes View Post
    Here are his Dodecad K12b results

    1 Atlantic_Med 67.21
    2 North_European 24.2
    3 Caucasus 7.61
    4 Northwest_African 0.9
    5 Southeast_Asian 0.08
    Thanks. No Gedrosia though, so I am not so sure this sample was Indo-European. Even diluted he should show a few percents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    To me ATP9 shows the opposite. In every ADMIXTURE test he shows an ANE-signal. He's the first ancient Iberian genome with Steppe ancestry. It's probably not a councidence he is our only non pre-Bell Beaker Iberian genome. Bell Beaker may have brought R1b-DF27, Steppe ancestry, and IE languages(maybe Celtic).
    The El Portalón samples ATP2 (2899–2678 BC), ATP3 (3516–3362 BC), ATP7 (3345–2944 BC), ATP9 (1750–1618 BC), and ATP20 (2289–2050 BC) all had significant amounts of Eastern European admixture. My admixture analyses have shown that for a long time now. People have either not noticed it or pretended that it's not the case.

    And ATP3 was R1b-M269. Another stubborn fact which many have been in denial about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Quite to the contrary, R1b1a1a2 in Eneolithic Spain would change the general picture drastically. Let's wait for official confirmation though.
    In other words:

    "I don't care what the data says, only an official proclamation from an academic authority can make something true or false."

    I on the other hand couldn't care less what the academics say. I look only at the data, and the data leaves no doubt that ATP3 was R1b-M269.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    It's really not a hypothesis if you do not provide evidence let alone flesh out the reasoning behind your assertions.
    I don't know if I can provide evidence because the study with Trzciniec genomes has not yet been published.

    And I know these results (Y-DNA haplogroups, autosomal data) but I should probably stay silent until it gets published.

    As for Proto-Celts - some of Unetice genomes are very similar to Hinxton4 (Iron Age Briton) and Rathlin1 (Bronze Age Irish), even though the latter two lived in Britain, and the former in Central Europe. Which shows that there was something that we can call "Celtic genetic signature", which was similar both in Britain and in Central Europe, despite geographical distance between them.

    Of course when Proto-Celts expanded to Southern Europe, they mixed with local Mediterranean-like people.

    And that mixture produced Celtiberians in Iberia, Gauls in France, or Cisalpine Gauls in Northern Italy.

    Before mixing with Southern Europeans, Proto-Celts were genetically very similar to Proto-Germanics. Celts from Britain and Ireland remained the most genetically similar to Proto-Celts, because they mixed less than other Celtic groups. And Celts from Germany became swallowed and assimilated by expanding Germanic tribes (who were very similar to them already before mixing).

    =======================

    As for Proto-Slavs, we don't have Proto-Slavic DNA but they had to be very similar to modern Balts, but slightly more southern or south-eastern shifted. IMO a Proto-Slav could be modeled as 75% Lithuanian + 25% Circassian (Caucasian admixture).

    In terms of Y-DNA there was likely no any N1c among Proto-Slavs. It was mostly various R1a and I2a-Din.

  24. #24
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Eurogenes K15 scores for all Proto-Germanic and Proto-Celtic samples.

    "Germanic" and "Celtic" in bold = average scores for Germanics/Celts:

    ===========================================

    North Sea Atlantic Baltic East Euro West Med West Asian South Asian Sub-Saharan Amerind Oceanian Siberian East Med NE African Red Sea SE Asian
    RISE94 38,9 30,74 9,3 11,15 0,23 9,68 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE61 41,9 22,42 13,76 7,53 12,24 0,5 0 1,64 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE71 50,33 23,06 8,27 2,59 0 4,51 0 0,48 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE97 37 39,07 10,85 5,57 7,51 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE98 39,93 18,64 15,82 16,41 7,64 0 1,07 0,36 0 0,12 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE174 40,24 31,48 16,78 10,88 0,28 0 0 0 0,34 0 0 0 0 0 0
    Germanic Average 41,38 27,57 12,46 9,02 4,65 2,45 0,18 0,41 0,06 0,02 0 0 0 0 0
    North Sea Atlantic Baltic East Euro West Med West Asian South Asian Sub-Saharan Amerind Oceanian Siberian East Med NE African Red Sea SE Asian
    Hinxton-4 34,84 31,86 13,89 5,72 6,34 4,78 1,93 0,51 0 0 0,13 0 0 0 0
    RISE150 39,26 27,35 10,84 14,89 1,72 5,55 0 0,24 0 0,14 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE569 27,52 23,44 27,12 10,39 10,88 0,65 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE577 31,08 31,7 11,72 7,81 13,91 3,79 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    I0099 42,07 21,58 12,51 13,2 5,94 4,7 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    I0047 34,99 36,93 11,91 9,33 4,19 2,65 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    I0164 38,42 27,49 15,1 11,85 0 7,14 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    I0116 30,27 30,83 16,78 13,56 4,73 3,83 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    I0803 38,99 23,63 12,29 16,47 1,64 6,98 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE431 41,45 24,3 15,29 11,79 6,95 0 0 0,22 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE139 26,37 22,94 21,22 17,08 5,74 4,15 0 2,51 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE154 27,3 35,7 16,43 4,8 6,63 8,48 0 0,67 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    Rathlin-1 31,58 32,45 12,95 11,65 1,39 3,29 3,17 1,59 1,87 0 0 0 0 0,06 0
    Celtic Average 34,16 28,48 15,23 11,43 5,39 4,31 0,39 0,44 0,14 0,01 0,01 0 0 0,00 0

  25. #25
    MarkoZ
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    As for Proto-Celts - some of Unetice genomes are very similar to Hinxton4 (Iron Age Briton) and Rathlin1 (Bronze Age Irish), even though the latter two lived in Britain, and the former in Central Europe. Which shows that there was something that we can call "Celtic genetic signature", which was similar both in Britain and in Central Europe, despite geographical distance between them.
    You have a habit of coming to spectacularly wrong conclusions. What the data actually shows is that after an almost complete discontinuation of human activity in the British Isles before the beginning of the third millennium B.C. as demonstrated by McLaughlin et al. [McLaughlin, T.R., Whitehouse, N.J., Schulting, R.J. et al. J World Prehist (2016) 29: 117. doi:10.1007/s10963-016-9093-0] earlier this year, people not too dissimilar from modern Celtic speakers of North-Western Europe settled in Ireland and Britain. Unless these humans had iPhones to communicate with their Gaulish kinfolk in continental Europe, they could not possibly have been the linguistic ancestors of the Gaels and the Britons. This means your 'Celtic genetic structure' is untenable.

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