ATP9 (MBA Iberia, ca. 1600 BC)

To me ATP9 shows the opposite. In every ADMIXTURE test he shows an ANE-signal. He's the first ancient Iberian genome with Steppe ancestry. It's probably not a councidence he is our only non pre-Bell Beaker Iberian genome. Bell Beaker may have brought R1b-DF27, Steppe ancestry, and IE languages(maybe Celtic).

The El Portalón samples ATP2 (2899–2678 BC), ATP3 (3516–3362 BC), ATP7 (3345–2944 BC), ATP9 (1750–1618 BC), and ATP20 (2289–2050 BC) all had significant amounts of Eastern European admixture. My admixture analyses have shown that for a long time now. People have either not noticed it or pretended that it's not the case.

And ATP3 was R1b-M269. Another stubborn fact which many have been in denial about.
 
Quite to the contrary, R1b1a1a2 in Eneolithic Spain would change the general picture drastically. Let's wait for official confirmation though.

In other words:

"I don't care what the data says, only an official proclamation from an academic authority can make something true or false."

I on the other hand couldn't care less what the academics say. I look only at the data, and the data leaves no doubt that ATP3 was R1b-M269.
 
It's really not a hypothesis if you do not provide evidence let alone flesh out the reasoning behind your assertions.
I don't know if I can provide evidence because the study with Trzciniec genomes has not yet been published.

And I know these results (Y-DNA haplogroups, autosomal data) but I should probably stay silent until it gets published.

As for Proto-Celts - some of Unetice genomes are very similar to Hinxton4 (Iron Age Briton) and Rathlin1 (Bronze Age Irish), even though the latter two lived in Britain, and the former in Central Europe. Which shows that there was something that we can call "Celtic genetic signature", which was similar both in Britain and in Central Europe, despite geographical distance between them.

Of course when Proto-Celts expanded to Southern Europe, they mixed with local Mediterranean-like people.

And that mixture produced Celtiberians in Iberia, Gauls in France, or Cisalpine Gauls in Northern Italy.

Before mixing with Southern Europeans, Proto-Celts were genetically very similar to Proto-Germanics. Celts from Britain and Ireland remained the most genetically similar to Proto-Celts, because they mixed less than other Celtic groups. And Celts from Germany became swallowed and assimilated by expanding Germanic tribes (who were very similar to them already before mixing).

=======================

As for Proto-Slavs, we don't have Proto-Slavic DNA but they had to be very similar to modern Balts, but slightly more southern or south-eastern shifted. IMO a Proto-Slav could be modeled as 75% Lithuanian + 25% Circassian (Caucasian admixture).

In terms of Y-DNA there was likely no any N1c among Proto-Slavs. It was mostly various R1a and I2a-Din.
 
Eurogenes K15 scores for all Proto-Germanic and Proto-Celtic samples.

"Germanic" and "Celtic" in bold = average scores for Germanics/Celts:

===========================================

North SeaAtlanticBalticEast EuroWest MedWest AsianSouth AsianSub-SaharanAmerindOceanianSiberianEast MedNE AfricanRed SeaSE Asian
RISE9438,930,749,311,150,239,68000000000
RISE6141,922,4213,767,5312,240,501,640000000
RISE7150,3323,068,272,5904,5100,480000000
RISE973739,0710,855,577,510000000000
RISE9839,9318,6415,8216,417,6401,070,3600,1200000
RISE17440,2431,4816,7810,880,280000,34000000
Germanic Average41,3827,5712,469,024,652,450,180,410,060,0200000
North SeaAtlanticBalticEast EuroWest MedWest AsianSouth AsianSub-SaharanAmerindOceanianSiberianEast MedNE AfricanRed SeaSE Asian
Hinxton-434,8431,8613,895,726,344,781,930,51000,130000
RISE15039,2627,3510,8414,891,725,5500,2400,1400000
RISE56927,5223,4427,1210,3910,880,65000000000
RISE57731,0831,711,727,8113,913,79000000000
I009942,0721,5812,5113,25,944,7000000000
I004734,9936,9311,919,334,192,65000000000
I016438,4227,4915,111,8507,14000000000
I011630,2730,8316,7813,564,733,83000000000
I080338,9923,6312,2916,471,646,98000000000
RISE43141,4524,315,2911,796,95000,220000000
RISE13926,3722,9421,2217,085,744,1502,510000000
RISE15427,335,716,434,86,638,4800,670000000
Rathlin-131,5832,4512,9511,651,393,293,171,591,8700000,060
Celtic Average34,1628,4815,2311,435,394,310,390,440,140,010,01000,000
 
As for Proto-Celts - some of Unetice genomes are very similar to Hinxton4 (Iron Age Briton) and Rathlin1 (Bronze Age Irish), even though the latter two lived in Britain, and the former in Central Europe. Which shows that there was something that we can call "Celtic genetic signature", which was similar both in Britain and in Central Europe, despite geographical distance between them.

You have a habit of coming to spectacularly wrong conclusions. What the data actually shows is that after an almost complete discontinuation of human activity in the British Isles before the beginning of the third millennium B.C. as demonstrated by McLaughlin et al. [[FONT=&quot]McLaughlin, T.R., Whitehouse, N.J., Schulting, R.J. et al. J World Prehist (2016) 29: 117. doi:10.1007/s10963-016-9093-0] [/FONT]earlier this year, people not too dissimilar from modern Celtic speakers of North-Western Europe settled in Ireland and Britain. Unless these humans had iPhones to communicate with their Gaulish kinfolk in continental Europe, they could not possibly have been the linguistic ancestors of the Gaels and the Britons. This means your 'Celtic genetic structure' is untenable.
 
What do you think ???

IMO it shows that there were no Indo-Europeans in Iberia before 1500 BC.
Not necessarily. There could have been early smaller incursions of Steppe into Iberia. You know the hobby of steppe warriors was to plunder the rich farmer societies. Gold and silver was already precious commodity. Not mentioning a lot of "fun" with their women.
 
By the way,

When testing ancient samples with GEDmatch, sometimes a problem called the "calculator effect" can occur.

And this problem can lead to misleading results.

Davidski wrote about this here: http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/beware-calculator-effect.html

And also here: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2014/10/ancient-genomes-and-calculator-effect.html

AFAIK this problem occurs especially when you try to check how much of admixture from someone younger did someone older have. For example if you are using Gedrosia K14 Neolithic which has "Yamnaya-Afanasievo" admixture, and you are testing Loschbour WHG with it. And our result is that Loschbour had, for example, 25% of Yamnaya. Of course it makes no sense if interpreted literally, because Loschbour lived thousands of years before Yamnaya.

But according to Davidski, his calculators ("Eurogenes") do not suffer from this problem. So testing ancients with them should be safe.

He wrote:

"Here's the good news: the Eurogenes calculators don't suffer from the calculator effect. That's because the reference samples are treated in the same way as the test samples, so there's only one variable: ancestry. What this means is that when you run a modern or ancient genome with a Eurogenes calculator you can confidently compare the result to those of the reference samples (provided enough SNPs are used), and then be able to make sensible inferences about its genetic origins."

And here about testing HGDP genomes: http://bga101.blogspot.com/2016/09/orcadians-k15-and-calculator-effect.html

HGDP = Human Genome Diversity Project. These are modern people who are used as reference populations, and that's why there is no point in testing them with these calculators etc. For example I uploaded an Orcadian from HDGP to DNA.Land and the result was "100% North-Western European" - of course only because this guy was used as one of reference samples for this component.
 
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What the data actually shows is that after an almost complete discontinuation of human activity in the British Isles before the beginning of the third millennium B.C. as demonstrated by McLaughlin et al. [McLaughlin, T.R., Whitehouse, N.J., Schulting, R.J. et al. J World Prehist (2016) 29: 117. doi:10.1007/s10963-016-9093-0] earlier this year, people not too dissimilar from modern Celtic speakers of North-Western Europe settled in Ireland and Britain. Unless these humans had iPhones to communicate with their Gaulish kinfolk in continental Europe, they could not possibly have been the linguistic ancestors of the Gaels and the Britons. This means your 'Celtic genetic structure' is untenable.

I am not insisting that Rathlin1 was for sure a Celtic-speaker. He could be some other Indo-European.

Maybe he spoke something else, closely related to Celtic. But Rathlin1 is only one of many samples that I used. The remaining ones were Proto-Celts according to archaeologists (many archaeologists agree that the Unetice culture was Proto-Italo-Celtic). Hinxton4 lived around 170 BC - 80 AD, in times of Roman expansion into Celtic lands, so there is no doubt that he was Celtic.
 
Quite to the contrary, R1b1a1a2 in Eneolithic Spain would change the general picture drastically. Let's wait for official confirmation though.

Why drastically ??? One singleton R1b flowing in an ocean of Non-R1b would not really change anything.

Especially considering that there is an ocean of R1b1a1a2 in Eastern European samples from similar periods.

This R1b has not been confirmed by any other source apart from Genetiker. I'm not saying that he is unreliable, but considering that he believes in some White European ruling elite in Pre-Columbian Peru and Chile (check his blog), I would rather wait for at least one more person to confirm his result. Moreover, even if this R1b is legit, it would still be only 9% of Copper Age Iberian Y-DNA (11 samples, including one probable R1b). Compared to ca. 70% today. And Copper Age Iberians were autosomally like modern Sardinians. There were big autosomal changes in Iberia after the Copper Age - what Y-DNA did those new immigrants carry, if not R1b ???

Time to accept the fact that Iberia has been a genetic sink, not a source of migrations to other parts of Europe.
 
Quite to the contrary, R1b1a1a2 in Eneolithic Spain would change the general picture drastically. Let's wait for official confirmation though.

Not really. Even if we consider the R1b1a2 as a true result, it's possible the lineage travelled with farmers. Note that the sample appears to be xU106 and xP312 if we assume the other calls as valid. Almost all the R1b in Spain is the considerably younger DF27+. We already know R1b was spread out through northern Eurasia, there is no need to keep it in the Pyrenees simply because rare lineages have been discovered in two ancient European samples.
 
You have a habit of coming to spectacularly wrong conclusions. What the data actually shows is that after an almost complete discontinuation of human activity in the British Isles before the beginning of the third millennium B.C. as demonstrated by McLaughlin et al. [[FONT=&quot]McLaughlin, T.R., Whitehouse, N.J., Schulting, R.J. et al. J World Prehist (2016) 29: 117. doi:10.1007/s10963-016-9093-0] [/FONT]earlier this year, people not too dissimilar from modern Celtic speakers of North-Western Europe settled in Ireland and Britain. Unless these humans had iPhones to communicate with their Gaulish kinfolk in continental Europe, they could not possibly have been the linguistic ancestors of the Gaels and the Britons. This means your 'Celtic genetic structure' is untenable.
Why would you think that? If ancient Britons and Irish and Gauls all descend from Central European Proto-Celts, it's only logical that they all spoke related languages.
 
Not necessarily. There could have been early smaller incursions of Steppe into Iberia. You know the hobby of steppe warriors was to plunder the rich farmer societies. Gold and silver was already precious commodity. Not mentioning a lot of "fun" with their women.
These Steppe people behaved very much like Vikings. Well if Norwegians have the highest Yamna ancestry that make sense.
 
Why drastically ???

Because just about everybody, yourself included, claims that R1b-M269, Eastern European autosomal DNA, and Indo-European languages didn't spread to Western Europe until well after 3000 BC. ATP3 and the other El Portalón samples prove them wrong.

Especially considering that there is an ocean of R1b1a1a2 in Eastern European samples from similar periods.

And so far it's all R1b-Z2103, not the R1b-L51 that now dominates Western Europe.

This R1b has not been confirmed by any other source apart from Genetiker. I'm not saying that he is unreliable, but considering that he believes in some White European ruling elite in Pre-Columbian Peru and Chile (check his blog)

All you can ever do is insinuate that the idea of pre-Viking transatlantic contact is somehow absurd, when of course there's nothing absurd about it. You never dispute the mountain of historical, archeological, anthropological, and genetic evidence proving the presence of Europeans in the Americas before the Vikings, because you can't.

I would rather wait for at least one more person to confirm his result.

If you're incapable of analyzing Y chromosomes yourself, as you obviously are, then you have no business calling my work into question. Either use the ATP3 data to show which of my Y-SNP calls are incorrect, or stop calling into question my R1b-M269 assignment.

Moreover, even if this R1b is legit, it would still be only 9% of Copper Age Iberian Y-DNA (11 samples, including one probable R1b). Compared to ca. 70% today. And Copper Age Iberians were autosomally like modern Sardinians. There were big autosomal changes in Iberia after the Copper Age - what Y-DNA did those new immigrants carry, if not R1b ???

All of the Copper Age Iberian samples we have so far come from one location, the Atapuerca Mountains, and even within that one location there's autosomal complexity, with the El Portalón samples having Eastern European admixture and the El Mirador samples lacking it. Almost all of Copper Age Iberia remains unsampled, and it's possible that within that vast territory there were populations that were contemporaneous with the Copper Age El Portalón population that had higher frequencies of R1b-M269 and higher proportions of Eastern European admixture. Later mixing with those other populations would explain the higher frequency of R1b-M269 and higher proportion of Eastern European admixture in modern Iberians compared to the El Portalón samples.

Time to accept the fact that Iberia has been a genetic sink, not a source of migrations to other parts of Europe.

You should reflect on the fact that the Bell Beaker culture began in Iberia around 2900 BC, and later spread northward and eastward throughout Western and Central Europe. And also on the fact that the Bell Beaker samples we currently have from Central Europe carry mitochondrial haplogroups like H1 and H3 that originated in Southwestern Europe.

By the way, your assertion that the Unetice people spoke proto-Italo-Celtic is wrong. The R1b-P312 men of the Bell Beaker culture spoke proto-Italo-Celtic. The men of that culture who spread to the British Isles around 2500 BC gave rise to R1b-L21 men, like those on Rathlin Island, who spoke proto-Insular-Celtic.
 
Even if we consider the R1b1a2 as a true result, it's possible the lineage travelled with farmers.

No, it isn't, because none of the early farmers were R1b-M269. Some were R1b-V88, but none were R1b-M269. And again, ATP2, ATP3, ATP7, ATP9 and ATP20 had significant Eastern European autosomal DNA, which none of the early farmers had.

Note that the sample appears to be xU106 and xP312 if we assume the other calls as valid. Almost all the R1b in Spain is the considerably younger DF27+.

It's not known whether ATP3 was L23, L51, L151, U106, P312, U152, DF27, or L21, because it doesn't have any calls for those SNPs or their equivalents.
 
These Steppe people behaved very much like Vikings. Well if Norwegians have the highest Yamna ancestry that make sense.

I think some of us wrongly view them as solely warrior invaders. As much as that might be true, they also brought entire populations with old/young and men/women to Europe.

Corded Ware culture is the best example. They made Eastern Europe their permanent home and made themselves the dominate people there within a few hundred years. In that sense they're more similar to Americans(United States) who expanded Westward in the 1700/1800s than Vikings.
 
I think some of us wrongly view them as solely warrior invaders. As much as that might be true, they also brought entire populations with old/young and men/women to Europe.

Corded Ware culture is the best example. They made Eastern Europe their permanent home and made themselves the dominate people there within a few hundred years. In that sense they're more similar to Americans(United States) who expanded Westward in the 1700/1800s than Vikings.
The same is true with the Vikings. Sometimes they led raids to plunder and rape. But they also migrated with their families and built settlements. Usually the raids came first and the migrations followed. I think it was the same with the Steppe people.
 
Finally a Bronze Age Iberian uploaded to GEDmatch:

ATP9 (Middle Bronze Age Iberia, 1700-1518 BC).


GEDmatch kit number: M116706

Results in Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 44.39
2 West_Med 37.4
3 North_Sea 17.71
4 Baltic 0.49

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French_Basque 12.34

2 Spanish_Aragon 17.77
3 Southwest_French 18.44
4 Spanish_Cantabria 18.47
5 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 19.44
6 Spanish_Valencia 20.59
7 Spanish_Andalucia 20.65
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 22.53
9 Spanish_Murcia 22.72
10 Spanish_Cataluna 22.81
11 Spanish_Extremadura 23.01
12 Portuguese 23.92
13 Spanish_Galicia 24.93
14 North_Italian 28.02
15 Sardinian 28.73
16 French 29.09
17 South_Dutch 32.41
18 Southwest_English 32.89
19 Tuscan 33.54
20 Southeast_English 34.42

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.9% French_Basque + 20.1% Sardinian @ 10.35
2 100% French_Basque + 0% Abhkasian @ 12.34
3 100% French_Basque + 0% Adygei @ 12.34

4 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Hazara @ 12.34
5 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Pashtun @ 12.34
6 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Tadjik @ 12.34

7 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Turkmen @ 12.34
8 100% French_Basque + 0% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 12.34
9 100% French_Basque + 0% Algerian @ 12.34
10 100% French_Basque + 0% Algerian_Jewish @ 12.34
11 100% French_Basque + 0% Altaian @ 12.34
12 100% French_Basque + 0% Anzick-1 @ 12.34
13 100% French_Basque + 0% Armenian @ 12.34
14 100% French_Basque + 0% Ashkenazi @ 12.34
15 100% French_Basque + 0% Assyrian @ 12.34
16 100% French_Basque + 0% Austrian @ 12.34
17 100% French_Basque + 0% Austroasiatic_Ho @ 12.34
18 100% French_Basque + 0% Azeri @ 12.34
19 100% French_Basque + 0% Balkar @ 12.34
20 100% French_Basque + 0% Balochi @ 12.34

==========================

In a PCA (based on Eurogenes K15 scores), ATP9 plots far away from modern Spanish guy:

http://i.imgur.com/zDUZ41R.png

zDUZ41R.png


Conclusion: the actual local population is autosomaly similar to ATP9, so no big population replacements after ATP9. The BB stay long there also.
 
I don't know if I can provide evidence because the study with Trzciniec genomes has not yet been published.

And I know these results (Y-DNA haplogroups, autosomal data) but I should probably stay silent until it gets published.
Oh no, you should not, you should not :)

Too much silence this year in regards to aDNA, just promises, promises, promises and no publications. At least we get some leaks now and then to speculate :)
 
Yet in every test he consistently shows an ANE signal. No matter how you spin it he had Steppe ancestry.

I think that bellow 3% it could be assumed to be noise?
 
If ATP9 is the first ancient from Iberia with Steppe admixture, then it means that it took Indo-Europeans ca. 1500 years to get to Iberia from the Steppe. Assuming that they started expanding from the Steppe ca. 3500-3000 BC, and first groups came to Spain ca. 2000-1500 BC. Of course those groups did not enter Iberia directly from the Steppe, but from somewhere in the middle of Europe.

Sorry to say but your argument is not backed by archaeology. It will be necessary to wait till 1200 BC to see in Iberia Central European cultures (Urnfield), which was by sure the first Celtic wave.
 

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