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Thread: What do we know about J1_P58+?

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    What do we know about J1_P58+?

    What do we know about J1-P58+?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Awad View Post
    What do we know about J1-P58+?
    Next to E1b1b one of the most typical yDNA among Semites. If you are J1-P58 chances are very high it is Semite derived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Next to E1b1b one of the most typical yDNA among Semites. If you are J1-P58 chances are very high it is Semite derived.
    So it considered more of a semitic marker? All of the people matched within my cluster are semites so it looks like the origins are semitic. What about Europeans who are J1-p58? Jewish origin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah Awad View Post
    So it considered more of a semitic marker? All of the people matched within my cluster are semites so it looks like the origins are semitic. What about Europeans who are J1-p58? Jewish origin?
    t's origin are not Semites. P58 predates Semite ethnicity but it is more typical for Semites. It is next to E1b1b one of the most typical among Semites. Therefore chances are very high that you are Semite if you have P58. However you could still be of non Semite origin and have it. But as I wrote above chances are allot higher that you have a Semite ancestor if you are P58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    t's origin are not Semites. P58 predates Semite ethnicity but it is more typical for Semites. It is next to E1b1b one of the most typical among Semites. Therefore chances are very high that you are Semite if you have P58. However you could still be of non Semite origin and have it. But as I wrote above chances are allot higher that you have a Semite ancestor if you are P58.
    Thank you for explaining it to me. My cluster is 4.5k years old so its likely my most recent tmrca is a semite.

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    However you could still be of non Semite origin and have it
    This I don't understand. My brother was tested j1e which is p58. I found L816, L817, L818 in my ancestrydna...How could we have all these paternal haplogroup markers and not be from a semitic origin?

    Also brother has 12.6percent estimated Ashenazi and I got 9% estimate (range 4-14%)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triodefreak View Post
    This I don't understand. My brother was tested j1e which is p58. I found L816, L817, L818 in my ancestrydna...How could we have all these paternal haplogroup markers and not be from a semitic origin?

    Also brother has 12.6percent estimated Ashenazi and I got 9% estimate (range 4-14%)
    It depends on the cluster. P58 itself predates the Semite origin. Therefore it can't have evolved among the Semites. However there are some mutations (clusters) within this branch that are much younger and most likely derive from Semites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Next to E1b1b one of the most typical yDNA among Semites. If you are J1-P58 chances are very high it is Semite derived.
    E1b1b breaks down in some 40 subclades. Which ones would be more typical among Semites to be more specific?

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    Hello, wouldn´t you Triodefreak have multiple jewish and/or arabic matches if you are of semitic origin? Me myself are J1 haplougroup, which is very very rare in balcan area, so I am waiting for SNP package to be done. I for one, do not have any matches on 37 marker setting, but some very distant on 12 level, maybe 50% of them beeing ashkenazi. I simply do not know for now...

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    TMRCA for P58 is 8.7 ka https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P58/

    the subclade Z2313 withTMRCA 5.4 ka https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2313/
    is ancestral to Semites and Arabs
    as Arabic is a west-Semitic language, Z2313 probably arrived in the Levant from where its subclades dispersed

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    L858 is probably the largest branch of J-P58, with a strong representation in Arab Middle eastern countries and south Europe, however its not entirely Arabian, the tribes of Arabia predominantly belong to the FGC12 branch, and its phylogenetic tree shows a striking resemblance to classical Arab genealogies, giving us the ability to predict (if you are FGC12+) which tribe you belong to.

    J-Z640 has Jewish, Levantine(Lebanon,Syria,Iraq), and Arabian members, for the Arabians all the tribal surnames in this group historically descend from one tribe, the Azd (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azd) who lived in and around Ma'rib, the capital of the kingdom of Saba in Yemen, before their migrations to Oman, Syria,Hejaz and Eastern Arabia.

    Due to the scarcity of data from Syria,Lebanon or Iraq(the right places) but its abundance in Saudi Arabia and Gulf states(the not really required places), we can't make any conclusions as to which historical peoples might have belonged to this subclade, we can assume its presence in the Ancient Hebrews(jewish membrs) and Phoenicians(colonies in Iberia and Sicily).

    YSC76 to me is the most interesting subclade of L858, among all the branches of J-P58(excluding the Arabic FGC12), it has the strongest representation in Turkey,Armenia, Iran, and eastern coastal cities in Saudi Arabia(FGC1940 subclade of YSC76 has no presence inland and lack tribal surnames) the Gulf countries,and Baluchistan. samples from Iraq exist but they're few. Eastern Semitic peoples such as the Babylonians and Assyrians might have belonged to this subclade.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

    YSC76 must also have been a Phoenician lineage as well (samples from Portugal, Morocco, Algeria, Sicily, Libya, Cyprus, and Lebanon).

    BY86 branch of YSC76 is the only branch that can be said to be Arabic, most claiming descent from Banu Judham tribe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Judham, classical Arab genealogists have disagreed on the origin of this tribe, some say its an Adnanite tribe (From Ishmael), others say Qahtanite (from Yemen), while some others have claimed they descend from Midian, Muhammad the prophet of Islam belongs the last category. given that this tribe is YSC76 and not FGC12, most likely it has a non Arabic origin and has been Arabized and assimilated in pre-Islamic Arabia, perhaps by the Ghassanid kings. the tribe's claim to Yemen was probably because the Ghassanids were from Yemen, the tribe prior to Islam lived in the area of the former Edomites and Ammonites, thier expansion to Egypt, Sudan, Libya, and Chad happened after Islam.

    FGC12 is the most common snp among the tribes of Arabia, the old distinction between "Adnanite Arabs" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan) and "Qahtanite Arabs" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qahtanite) is both accurate and false, apparently all traditional Adnanite tribes are FGC12+ and do indeed descend from a common ancestor, snp's downstream of FGC12 cluster in a way that resembles the Adnanite genealogical tree while the Qahtanites are scattered among various J-P58 subclades (Z640, L860, L93, YSC76, and FGC12 itself) and therefore dont have a common ancestor as was claimed before.

    Analysis of FGC12 is to be continued.

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    So who could analyze my cluster?

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    @Sarah Awad
    Have you tested any snp downstream of FGC12 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Sarah Awad
    Have you tested any snp downstream of FGC12 ?
    Iron, you have inbox message

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    @Sarah Awad
    Have you tested any snp downstream of FGC12 ?
    forsomereasonwhenItype,itdoesn'tletmeputaspace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    L858 is probably the largest branch of J-P58, with a strong representation in Arab Middle eastern countries and south Europe, however its not entirely Arabian, the tribes of Arabia predominantly belong to the FGC12 branch, and its phylogenetic tree shows a striking resemblance to classical Arab genealogies, giving us the ability to predict (if you are FGC12+) which tribe you belong to.

    J-Z640 has Jewish, Levantine(Lebanon,Syria,Iraq), and Arabian members, for the Arabians all the tribal surnames in this group historically descend from one tribe, the Azd who lived in and around Ma'rib, the capital of the kingdom of Saba in Yemen, before their migrations to Oman, Syria,Hejaz and Eastern Arabia.

    Due to the scarcity of data from Syria,Lebanon or Iraq(the right places) but its abundance in Saudi Arabia and Gulf states(the not really required places), we can't make any conclusions as to which historical peoples might have belonged to this subclade, we can assume its presence in the Ancient Hebrews(jewish membrs) and Phoenicians(colonies in Iberia and Sicily).

    YSC76 to me is the most interesting subclade of L858, among all the branches of J-P58(excluding the Arabic FGC12), it has the strongest representation in Turkey,Armenia, Iran, and eastern coastal cities in Saudi Arabia(FGC1940 subclade of YSC76 has no presence inland and lack tribal surnames) the Gulf countries,and Baluchistan. samples from Iraq exist but they're few. Eastern Semitic peoples such as the Babylonians and Assyrians might have belonged to this subclade.



    YSC76 must also have been a Phoenician lineage as well (samples from Portugal, Morocco, Algeria, Sicily, Libya, Cyprus, and Lebanon).

    BY86 branch of YSC76 is the only branch that can be said to be Arabic, most claiming descent from Banu Judham tribe classical Arab genealogists have disagreed on the origin of this tribe, some say its an Adnanite tribe (From Ishmael), others say Qahtanite (from Yemen), while some others have claimed they descend from Midian, Muhammad the prophet of Islam belongs the last category. given that this tribe is YSC76 and not FGC12, most likely it has a non Arabic origin and has been Arabized and assimilated in pre-Islamic Arabia, perhaps by the Ghassanid kings. the tribe's claim to Yemen was probably because the Ghassanids were from Yemen, the tribe prior to Islam lived in the area of the former Edomites and Ammonites, thier expansion to Egypt, Sudan, Libya, and Chad happened after Islam.

    FGC12 is the most common snp among the tribes of Arabia, the old distinction between "Adnanite Arabs" and "Qahtanite Arabs" is both accurate and false, apparently all traditional Adnanite tribes are FGC12+ and do indeed descend from a common ancestor, snp's downstream of FGC12 cluster in a way that resembles the Adnanite genealogical tree while the Qahtanites are scattered among various J-P58 subclades (Z640, L860, L93, YSC76, and FGC12 itself) and therefore dont have a common ancestor as was claimed before.

    Analysis of FGC12 is to be continued.

    Your post is very confusing, because it makes strong conclusions without sufficient evidence. For example when you say

    given that this tribe is YSC76 and not FGC12, most likely it has a non Arabic origin and has been Arabized and assimilated in pre-Islamic Arabia
    This quote presume that "Arabs" is a group that emerged out of nowhere as a distinct and unified group, thus justifying attributing certain genetic markers to them. Thats of course not true. The arabs are a mixed group of folks that share nothing but being semitic speaking (came from the north, Mesopotamia and levant, and south from Yaman) So ALL Arabs are "Arabized" to an extent. Because its a new ethnicity.



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    YSC76 to me is the most interesting subclade of L858, among all the branches of J-P58(excluding the Arabic FGC12), it has the strongest representation in Turkey,Armenia, Iran, and eastern coastal cities in Saudi Arabia(FGC1940 subclade of YSC76 has no presence inland and lack tribal surnames) the Gulf countries,and Baluchistan. samples from Iraq exist but they're few. Eastern Semitic peoples such as the Babylonians and Assyrians might have belonged to this subclade.




    It's also the largest subclade in Britain.It's almost entirely found along the Anglo/Scots border area( J1 in general is most common there).In the case of J1 YSC76 Grahams there are about half a dozen families associated or intermarried with us that also have a few family members with slightly different J1YSC76 signatures.As to it`s origins I can say for certain that Grahams have no Arabian DNA , we come up with a fair bit less Jewish like DNA than the British average on J Test , but we have a lot more Caucasian DNA than is usual in Britain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Graham View Post
    It's also the largest subclade in Britain.It's almost entirely found along the Anglo/Scots border area( J1 in general is most common there).In the case of J1 YSC76 Grahams there are about half a dozen families associated or intermarried with us that also have a few family members with slightly different J1YSC76 signatures.As to it`s origins I can say for certain that Grahams have no Arabian DNA , we come up with a fair bit less Jewish like DNA than the British average on J Test , but we have a lot more Caucasian DNA than is usual in Britain.
    Oh yeah , and the original J1 signature that eventually gave rise to the Grahams ( J-BY89 ) seems to be Balochi in origin.

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    I tell you what I know about J-P58. It is over 8,000 years old maybe even much older. There were no Arabs or Jews then just a lot of people moving from hunting and gathering to a sedentary agricultural and animal husbandry way of life. The Natufians of the lower Levant seemed to all belong to E1b1b, and J1 is more from the Caucasus to Iran region. Forget Shem, he was not created at that time. There are lots of downward SNPs, subclades from J-P58 after all a SNP in the Y chromosome mutates once every 100 years, some will form new subclades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponto View Post
    I tell you what I know about J-P58. It is over 8,000 years old maybe even much older. There were no Arabs or Jews then just a lot of people moving from hunting and gathering to a sedentary agricultural and animal husbandry way of life. The Natufians of the lower Levant seemed to all belong to E1b1b, and J1 is more from the Caucasus to Iran region. Forget Shem, he was not created at that time. There are lots of downward SNPs, subclades from J-P58 after all a SNP in the Y chromosome mutates once every 100 years, some will form new subclades.
    J1-P58 itself is not Arab, it is to old for that.
    But some of the main subclades of J1-P58 are Arab.

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    Arabian J1 has a typical subclade which is L222. Absent or very rare in Europe.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    I'm Lebanese and I'm J1-P58

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    P58 can indicate semitic or arab ancestry , you need to test more to find your clade

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    I think that the most interesting subclade of P58 is Z18271 (Y3088) because it can be a proof of existence of biblical Jacob. Quite interesting subclade is also FGC8712 because Muhammad probably belonged to it and it has Jewish subbranch ZS2121. Interestingly, Y3088 and FGC8712 are not related closely. Z18271 is "the most Jewish" haplogroup and it expands quite suddenly, it has TMRCA about 3600 ybp (or one-two century more) in my opinion (about 25% larger than 2900 ybp suggested by YFull).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Arabian J1 has a typical subclade which is L222. Absent or very rare in Europe.
    interesting .. in Najd - Saudi Arabia it is probably the most common Y-DNA among the tribal Arabians, myself included (under FGC7944 - Dawasir tribe, Badarin sub-tribe) from "Azd Bani Mazin" pre-Islamic tribe

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