Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 5 of 5

Thread: An ignoramus asks... Britain before R1B

  1. #1
    Junior Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-12-16
    Posts
    3
    Points
    1,631
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,631, Level: 11
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 219
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: United Kingdom



    An ignoramus asks... Britain before R1B

    Hi all,

    I'm presently writing a book (which may or may not get published) about my local area. While I don't want to dwell on it too much in the text, the genetic origins of those who lived here during the Mesolithic and Neolithic - and Bronze Age, too - is hugely important. And it's giving me a headache.

    I have read several different papers and pieces (including Sykes' Blood of the Isles a while ago), but my capacity to drill down and answer a couple of basic questions is limited. In effect, it all looks like a pile of letters and numbers after a couple of hours and I feel like I keep going back to the beginning!). As such, any bite-sized answers to the following would be sincerely appreciated!

    My specific focus is on the south west of England, and the one thing which is obvious is the prevalence of R1B (i.e. that which is generally held to have emerged from an ice-age refuge in the Basque area of northern Spain). The questions I have are...

    1. When did R1B reach the British Isles? Was it before or after R1A?

    2. Are there y-DNA haplogroup or haplogroups which are more indicative of hunter-gatherers in the British Isles? Are any potentially more specific to the South West of the UK?

    3. Do the disparities in relative levels of mDNA variations v y-DNA variations (specifically R1B) suggest conquest, mass migration, or something else?


    Thank you in anticipation of any feedback. The more the merrier as it's always best to get a consensus / range of opinions!

  2. #2
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    If you are planning to write a serious book you don't need any crowd pleasing concensus. What you have to do is to read some recent academic studies on R1b. British dominated hg. R1b subtype is not that old. Distribution of R1b in England is due to a 'founder effect'..

    Here are some academic papers:

    A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2010146a.html


    Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe
    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/03/13/016477

    Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe
    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433


  3. #3
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by absentee thoughtlord View Post
    Hi all,

    I'm presently writing a book (which may or may not get published) about my local area. While I don't want to dwell on it too much in the text, the genetic origins of those who lived here during the Mesolithic and Neolithic - and Bronze Age, too - is hugely important. And it's giving me a headache.

    I have read several different papers and pieces (including Sykes' Blood of the Isles a while ago), but my capacity to drill down and answer a couple of basic questions is limited. In effect, it all looks like a pile of letters and numbers after a couple of hours and I feel like I keep going back to the beginning!). As such, any bite-sized answers to the following would be sincerely appreciated!

    My specific focus is on the south west of England, and the one thing which is obvious is the prevalence of R1B (i.e. that which is generally held to have emerged from an ice-age refuge in the Basque area of northern Spain). The questions I have are...

    1. When did R1B reach the British Isles? Was it before or after R1A?

    2. Are there y-DNA haplogroup or haplogroups which are more indicative of hunter-gatherers in the British Isles? Are any potentially more specific to the South West of the UK?

    3. Do the disparities in relative levels of mDNA variations v y-DNA variations (specifically R1B) suggest conquest, mass migration, or something else?


    Thank you in anticipation of any feedback. The more the merrier as it's always best to get a consensus / range of opinions!
    Start from this:
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
    Welcome to Eupedia and good luck with your book.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  4. #4
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Some good answers have already been given to you. In 2017 many new papers with ancient DNA from Britain are coming so I'd wait before writiting anything yet. These are the basics about early British genetics.....

    >In the Mesolithic "WHG" people lived in Britain.

    >In the Neolithic people who were part "EEF" and "WHG" from mainland Europe replaced the native "WHGs". There of course was probably some admixture but nonetheless a small amount of admixture.

    >In the Late Neolithic/Bronze age, around 2300-2000 BC, only 1,000 years after a the British Isles were repopulated they were repopulated again. the "EEF"/"WHG" natives were replaced by people from mainland Europe who were a mixture of "EEF", "WHG", and Yamnaya. Agian there was some admixture with the natives but it was small. This last massive migration brought R1b to the British Isles.

    >Since 2300-2000 BC nothing massive has changed in British genetics. The only large scale migration we know of after that was the Early Medieval Anglo Saxon migration which brought people who were very very closely related to the Celtic-speaking natives but nonetheless replaced a large number of them. It is estimated modern English are around 30% Anglo Saxon and the rest is mostly Briton Celtic.

    Here are some papers with ancient DNA relating to British genetic history.
    Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon genomes from East England reveal British migration history
    Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome

  5. #5
    Junior Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-12-16
    Posts
    3
    Points
    1,631
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,631, Level: 11
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 219
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: United Kingdom



    Sincere thanks to all, and especially to Fire Haired 14 who, in a few sentences, has managed to simply explain what countless academic papers could not!

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •