An ignoramus asks... Britain before R1B

[absentee thoughtlord]

Hi all,

I'm presently writing a book (which may or may not get published) about my local area. While I don't want to dwell on it too much in the text, the genetic origins of those who lived here during the Mesolithic and Neolithic - and Bronze Age, too - is hugely important. And it's giving me a headache.

I have read several different papers and pieces (including Sykes' Blood of the Isles a while ago), but my capacity to drill down and answer a couple of basic questions is limited. In effect, it all looks like a pile of letters and numbers after a couple of hours and I feel like I keep going back to the beginning!). As such, any bite-sized answers to the following would be sincerely appreciated!

My specific focus is on the south west of England, and the one thing which is obvious is the prevalence of R1B (i.e. that which is generally held to have emerged from an ice-age refuge in the Basque area of northern Spain). The questions I have are...

1. When did R1B reach the British Isles? Was it before or after R1A?

2. Are there y-DNA haplogroup or haplogroups which are more indicative of hunter-gatherers in the British Isles? Are any potentially more specific to the South West of the UK?

3. Do the disparities in relative levels of mDNA variations v y-DNA variations (specifically R1B) suggest conquest, mass migration, or something else?


Thank you in anticipation of any feedback. The more the merrier as it's always best to get a consensus / range of opinions!

[Goga]

If you are planning to write a serious book you don't need any crowd pleasing concensus. What you have to do is to read some recent academic studies on R1b. British dominated hg. R1b subtype is not that old. Distribution of R1b in England is due to a 'founder effect'..

Here are some academic papers:

A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2010146a.html


Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/03/13/016477

Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433

[LeBrok]

Hi all,

I'm presently writing a book (which may or may not get published) about my local area. While I don't want to dwell on it too much in the text, the genetic origins of those who lived here during the Mesolithic and Neolithic - and Bronze Age, too - is hugely important. And it's giving me a headache.

I have read several different papers and pieces (including Sykes' Blood of the Isles a while ago), but my capacity to drill down and answer a couple of basic questions is limited. In effect, it all looks like a pile of letters and numbers after a couple of hours and I feel like I keep going back to the beginning!). As such, any bite-sized answers to the following would be sincerely appreciated!

My specific focus is on the south west of England, and the one thing which is obvious is the prevalence of R1B (i.e. that which is generally held to have emerged from an ice-age refuge in the Basque area of northern Spain). The questions I have are...

1. When did R1B reach the British Isles? Was it before or after R1A?

2. Are there y-DNA haplogroup or haplogroups which are more indicative of hunter-gatherers in the British Isles? Are any potentially more specific to the South West of the UK?

3. Do the disparities in relative levels of mDNA variations v y-DNA variations (specifically R1B) suggest conquest, mass migration, or something else?


Thank you in anticipation of any feedback. The more the merrier as it's always best to get a consensus / range of opinions!

Start from this:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
Welcome to Eupedia and good luck with your book.

[Fire Haired14]

Some good answers have already been given to you. In 2017 many new papers with ancient DNA from Britain are coming so I'd wait before writiting anything yet. These are the basics about early British genetics.....

>In the Mesolithic "WHG" people lived in Britain.

>In the Neolithic people who were part "EEF" and "WHG" from mainland Europe replaced the native "WHGs". There of course was probably some admixture but nonetheless a small amount of admixture.

>In the Late Neolithic/Bronze age, around 2300-2000 BC, only 1,000 years after a the British Isles were repopulated they were repopulated again. the "EEF"/"WHG" natives were replaced by people from mainland Europe who were a mixture of "EEF", "WHG", and Yamnaya. Agian there was some admixture with the natives but it was small. This last massive migration brought R1b to the British Isles.

>Since 2300-2000 BC nothing massive has changed in British genetics. The only large scale migration we know of after that was the Early Medieval Anglo Saxon migration which brought people who were very very closely related to the Celtic-speaking natives but nonetheless replaced a large number of them. It is estimated modern English are around 30% Anglo Saxon and the rest is mostly Briton Celtic.

Here are some papers with ancient DNA relating to British genetic history.
Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon genomes from East England reveal British migration history
Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome

[absentee thoughtlord]

Sincere thanks to all, and especially to Fire Haired 14 who, in a few sentences, has managed to simply explain what countless academic papers could not!