Children of older fathers have less evolutionary fitness

It is not true that before the invention of "modern medicine" people rarely lived to their 50th birthday.

Because the vast majority of people simply don't need "modern medicine" before 50. It is only after 50 years of age that people start having some health problems. However, children are also very vulnerable. And in the past children died like flies. The majority of people were dying before becoming adults. But if you were lucky to survive your 18th birthday, then you could expect living 60 years or sometimes even much longer. People in their 80s and 90s existed in prehistory. It was not so uncommon.

Children have weak immune systems. Add poor hygiene, take away antibiotics, and they die like flies.

Then throw also malnutrition into the mix, and death rates among children will increase even more.
 
Higher IQ amongst children of older fathers can easily come from the fact that rather than spending time teaching sons sports, older men prefer to sit down with the children and share knowledge if not "wisdom".

Or it could simply be the result that higher IQ people study longer, dedicate more time to their career, and consequently also marry and have children later. As IQ is strongly hereditary, if most high IQ people marry late, it's only logical that high IQ children should have older parents. It's not a cause though, but an indirect side-effect of high IQ in modern society.
 
IQ doesn't get higher from teaching. It's innate.
Well, the base is natural, the capacity. Giving the same resources and environment people will achieve different IQ level, because of their specific DNA.

Otherwise environmental factor has dramatic impact on intelligence too. Practice language and you are going to be a better speaker. Isolate a child till age 10 from contact with people and child will never learn to speak properly. Practice any game and you will become muster of it. Likewise, practice logical thinking, problem solving, new methods, solutions, working systems, knowledge in general, increase memory and you will increase your IQ. Thanks to plasticity of your brain to rewire and its ability to learn.


Also, even if that could happen, i.e. IQ getting higher because of better teaching from older fathers, any speculative higher IQ in the children of older fathers is irrelevant if more of them are unfit in evolutionary terms and so a higher percentage of them die before being able to reproduce, a problem that persists into subsequent generations. (It's true an older, presumably older father would have more resources to lavish on offspring, which tells you how real the phenomenon must be, if even with those advantages there are these kinds of outcomes.)
I was going to say the same. So the full effect has to be even bigger, when resources are being equal for all.
 
Higher IQ amongst children of older fathers can easily come from the fact that rather than spending time teaching sons sports, older men prefer to sit down with the children and share knowledge if not "wisdom".
This plus a kid of a father in older age will have already many older brothers and sisters, therefore more interaction, more games, more learning of knowledge they already experienced, and more cunning to find its place in this competition for already stretched family resources.
 
Angela said:
any speculative higher IQ in the children of older fathers is irrelevant if more of them are unfit in evolutionary terms and so a higher percentage of them die before being able to reproduce, a problem that persists into subsequent generations.

As you just noticed in that fragment quoted above:

1) Harmful "de novo" mutations are eliminated a few generations after their emergence, because their carriers die young.

2) Beneficial "de novo" mutations stay in the gene pool and proliferate.

So the long-term effect of having older fathers (and thus more of "de novo" mutations) is decisively positive. Not negative. Old fatherhood might sometimes be negative for a particular family, but not for the gene pool of a population as a whole.

This is why evolution did not restrict male reproductive capabilities with anything similar to menopause.

die before being able to reproduce, a problem that persists into subsequent generations.

If you die before being able to reproduce, then there are no any subsequent generations.

So a problem does not persist.
 
  1. On average, humans acquire ~74 de novo single nucleotide variants (SNVs) per genome per generation.
  2. The rate of de novo mutations seems higher in individuals with genetic diseases, particularly sporadic disorders such as intellectual disability and autism.
  3. Perhaps surprisingly, the de novo mutational load seems correlated with paternal (as opposed to maternal) age.
It's not that surprising considering that women are born with all their ova (egg cells) and do not produce new ones during their life. Therefore mutations could only be caused by toxins or stress, not simply by repeated cell divisions. In contrast, men produce new spermatozoa all the time, with a maturation cycle of 3 months. Mutations are more likely to occur in the spermatozoa of older men because sperm cells divide all the time, and with each mutation de novo mutations occur, which are passed to the next generation or sperm cells in that line. That is why male fertility decreases with age. As more and more mutations accumulate, a higher percentage of spermatozoa become misshapen and useless. Even those that do survive will usually carry more mutations in a 40 year-old individual than a 20-year old one. That's just the way it is. Nevertheless, most mutations are silent (i.e. don't change anything), while those that do cause changes in the organism can be either beneficial or deleterious. It's all a matter of luck, really.
 
As you just noticed in that fragment quoted above:

1) Harmful "de novo" mutations are eliminated a few generations after their emergence, because their carriers die young.

2) Beneficial "de novo" mutations stay in the gene pool and proliferate.

So the long-term effect of having older fathers (and thus more of "de novo" mutations) is decisively positive. Not negative.

Old fatherhood might be sometimes negative for a particular family, but not for the gene pool of a population as a whole.

In the case of very deleterious mutations, the carriers may die very young indeed. Most miscarriages are caused by deleterious mutations in the foetus. At one point in development the broken genes make development impossible and the foetus self-aborts. It's much better this way actually. If only gynaecologists informed women about this, they would be less traumatised in the event of a miscarriage. They would at least understand that it is not their fault, and that there is nothing they could have done to prevent it if some genes were irredeemably broken.
 
Maciamo said:
Nevertheless, most mutations are silent (i.e. don't change anything), while those that do cause changes in the organism can be either beneficial or deleterious. It's all a matter of luck, really.

Yes, that's how it is. Do you know what percent of all mutations are neutral (silent)?
 
Nope, your "guesstimates" that people in prehistory reproduced at 15 and lived 35 were wrong.

The truth is that in prehistory 50% of people died before the age of 15 (with 30% dying before the age of 5), and thus did not reproduce at all. The remaining 50% lived on average 55-60 years, and reproduced after 20-30 just like we today.

Read about age distribution of mortality rates. In the past, death was a thing that affected mostly children.

At least 1/2 of all people were never becoming adults because they were dying before turning 18.
20-30 doesn't classify as older parents who we are talking about. Most kids were made by young parents regardless that some of them reached 60. If our natural procreative age starts at age 12-15, and most likely earlier in the past, it should tell you how important for survival of your kids was not to wait till old age. If you had first kids till 20 it would given you a chance to be around till your 40 to protect and feed your kids. To wait till 40 to procreate would drastically limit a chance of having kids at all (being alive), and looking after them. Most adult men died in wars, fights and hunting before reaching 40+.
 
This plus a kid of a father in older age will have already many older brothers and sisters, therefore more interaction, more games, more learning of knowledge they already experienced, and more cunning to find its place in this competition for already stretched family resources.

Yet, all research to date show that the eldest child in a family typically has the highest IQ. See:

- Kristensen & Bjerkedal 2007
- Hotz & Pantano 2011
- Roher et al. 2015
 
If our natural procreative age starts at age 12-15
Today it does. In the past it did not, because nutrition was poorer and living conditions were harsher.

In prehistory natural procreative age started at age maybe 15-18, certainly not 12-15 like nowadays.

Today children grow faster due to better nutrition and better living conditions.

Yet, all research to date show that the eldest child in a family typically has the highest IQ.

"Firstborn" usually has a special status and gets more attention from parents.

At least this was traditionally the case, and still is today in some societies.
 
Tomenable;495951[B said:
][/B]It is not true that before the invention of "modern medicine" people rarely lived to their 50th birthday.

Because the vast majority of people simply don't need "modern medicine" before 50.
Don't you remember what you said just a moment ago?!!!
The truth is that in prehistory 50% of people died before the age of 15 (with 30% dying before the age of 5), and thus did not reproduce at all.
You know so many alternative Truths. By your calculations, your vast majority is 50%, lol, like your silent majority. ;)



It is only after 50 years of age that people start having some health problems. However, children are also very vulnerable. And in the past children died like flies. The majority of people were dying before becoming adults. But if you were lucky to survive your 18th birthday, then you could expect living 60 years or sometimes even much longer.
50% living to 60 in peaceful times maybe. Unless there was a war, plague or failed crops, or gangrene from accidental cuts, or Younger Dryas etc So no freakin way the rest lived 60. Maybe 20%.

Children have weak immune systems. Add poor hygiene, take away antibiotics, and they die like flies.
It's because of the "neutral" mutations of yours. Some scientists say that half of unborn children are naturally aborted, because they are so mutated that they can't get even to first month of their life.
 
Nope, it is not an issue of something being good or bad by some universal forces. You see our DNA is very finely tuned "machine" where genes cooperate with each other. In this case any changes in this machine will be mostly negative. Imagine an old fashion watch. Open it and look at all the gears nicely working inside. Now try to do a random modification to any of these gears. Add more teeth to some gears, make square gears, o much bigger, and I assure you that the watch will stop working. Only in rare situation little modification of fine tuned watch will be positive. Like a modification making all gears physically stronger, or all proportionally bigger. Of course, if environment rewards such change.
It is a similar situation with our DNA. Most changes are distractive, varying from very destructive to mildly negative to neutral, and only microscopic amount of changes are truly positive.

Very nice job of explaining the science in simple language for those of our posters who haven't kept up with the scientific literature.

Those who have already know that the science seems to show that de novo mutations in the vast majority of cases are not beneficial.

I don't know how it can get much clearer than this statement in the above cited source:
"De novo mutations tend to be more deleterious than inherited variation because they haven’t undergone the same level of evolutionary selection.

Just as a general proposition: "Beneficial mutations are rare."
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/365/1544/1153

"One of the earliest theoretical studies of the distribution of fitness effects was done by Motoo Kimura, an influential theoretical population geneticist. His neutral theory of molecular evolution proposes that most novel mutations will be highly deleterious, with a small fraction being neutral.[61][62] Hiroshi Akashi more recently proposed a bimodalmodel for the DFE, with modes centered around highly deleterious and neutral mutations.[63] Both theories agree that the vast majority of novel mutations are neutral or deleterious and that advantageous mutations are rare, which has been supported by experimental results. One example is a study done on the DFE of random mutations in vesicular stomatitis virus.[50] Out of all mutations, 39.6% were lethal, 31.2% were non-lethal deleterious, and 27.1% were neutral. Another example comes from a high throughput mutagenesis experiment with yeast.[55] In this experiment it was shown that the overall DFE is bimodal, with a cluster of neutral mutations, and a broad distribution of deleterious mutations."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation#Distribution_of_fitness_effects

Now, I'm done. This is like arguing the shape of the earth with flat earthers, or evolution with Creationists.

As to IQ, the intelligence quotient is a very particular term and measuring it can only be done by means of the kind of hours long testing done one on one by educational psychologists which measure memory, speed of processing, visual-spatial ability, pattern recognition and on and on. Pen and ink mass produced tests, and even worse, tests like the SAT do indeed measure what is learned, not what one is capable of learning quickly.

That innate IQ is highly heritable, and relatively stable if the testing is of the kind I described.

Ed. You're absolutely right about the very high number of spontaneous abortions, and I'm not just talking about what are popularly called "miscarriages". Those are the situations where a woman knows she's two or three or four months pregnant and the fetus aborts or dies in utero and has to be removed, which is even more of a horror.

The fact is that often, when a woman is "late" or "skips" a period, she is often pregnant, but the fetus aborts because of mutational abnormalities.

Also, some people seem to be unaware of the number of children today born with less serious mutational abnormalities, or what are sometimes called birth defects. Parents just get their child the proper medical care. In prior eras, these children were still born or died shortly after birth.
 
Angela said:
I don't know how it can get much clearer than this statement in the above cited source: "De novo mutations tend to be more deleterious than inherited variation because they haven’t undergone the same level of evolutionary selection.

You underlined with bold font a wrong part of that quote.

It says: "tend to be more deleterious than inherited variation".

It does not say, that over 50% of de novo mutations are deleterious.

because they haven’t undergone the same level of evolutionary selection.

De novo mutations have not undergone any evolutionary selection at all.

Because they have just emerged, so how could they be undergo any selection?

However, they will be subjected to evolutionary selection in next generations.

Just as a general proposition: "Beneficial mutations are rare."

As are deleterious mutations. The vast majority are silent (or neutral as I called it).
 
Today it does. In the past it did not, because nutrition was poorer and living conditions were harsher.

In prehistory natural procreative age started at age maybe 15-18, certainly not 12-15 like nowadays.

Today children grow faster due to better nutrition and better living conditions.
No reason to speculate. Check puberty age for today's hunter gatherers. There are still secluded groups in jungles and I'm sure their is some research on it. I bet you, it will be around 12 years old.



"Firstborn" usually has a special status and gets more attention from parents.
Attention yes, but the last one grows up in better material conditions.
 
Angela said:
As to IQ, the intelligence quotient is a very particular term and measuring it can only be done by means of the kind of hours long testing done one on one by educational psychologists which measure memory, speed of processing, visual-spatial ability, pattern recognition and on and on.

In fact it is enough to take a look at the Bell Curve in your "Educational Attainment" Report in DNA Land:

https://dna.land

It is called "Educational Attainment" but what it really measures are alleles associated (correlated) with IQ.

This report shows 30 SNPs and "effect sizes" which are either positive or negative.

"De novo mutations" can also occur in genes which affect these "effect sizes".

 
"One of the earliest theoretical studies of the distribution of fitness effects was done by Motoo Kimura, an influential theoretical population geneticist. His neutral theory of molecular evolution proposes that most novel mutations will be highly deleterious, with a small fraction being neutral.[61][62] Hiroshi Akashi more recently proposed a bimodalmodel for the DFE, with modes centered around highly deleterious and neutral mutations.[63] Both theories agree that ...advantageous mutations are rare, which has been supported by experimental results."

Is it clear now or do I also have to explain that MOST means OVER 50%?

For everyone's information, IQ, like most human traits, is polygenic, affected by perhaps hundreds if not thousands of alleles. No scientist claims to know what they all are, and therefore no retail testing company is going to be able to tell you if you're "genetically" smarter than anyone else. This is voodoo genetics and part of why there is a blowback against amateurs being left to interpret data from retail genetics companies.
 
Check puberty age for today's hunter gatherers.
Today's hunter-gatherers are not European, not even Caucasoid. And average puberty age varies between the races. For example for African-American girls, average age at menarche is below 12 and for European-American girls it is over 13.

For East Asian girls, average age at menarche is even older than for European girls.

The possible correlation with IQ (higher average IQ = later menarche) is interesting.

Also twinning rates are different between the races. For example East Asians have twins on average 4 times per 1000 pregnancies. Europeans - 8 times per 1000 pregnancies. Sub-Saharan Africans - over 16 times per 1000 pregnancies.

Triplets per million pregnancies are: 10 for Asians, 100 for Europeans, 1700 for Sub-Saharan Africans.

"One of the earliest theoretical studies of the distribution of fitness effects was done by Motoo Kimura, an influential theoretical population geneticist. His neutral theory of molecular evolution proposes that most novel mutations will be highly deleterious, with a small fraction being neutral.[61][62] Hiroshi Akashi more recently proposed a bimodal model for the DFE, with modes centered around highly deleterious and neutral mutations.[63] Both theories agree that ... advantageous mutations are rare, which has been supported by experimental results."

These are so far just theories, not proven facts. And as we already agreed, highly deleterious mutations eliminate themselves from gene pool (because carriers of these mutations do not live long enough to reproduce).
 
You know, you can post all the studies in the world, but if people don't read them, or skip over pertinent phrases, or refuse to accept them for whatever bizarre reason, there's really not much to be done except to ignore such comments.

""One of the earliest theoretical studies of the distribution of fitness effects was done by Motoo Kimura, an influential theoretical population geneticist. His neutral theory of molecular evolution proposes that most novel mutations will be highly deleterious, with a small fraction being neutral.[61][62] Hiroshi Akashi more recently proposed a bimodal model for the DFE, with modes centered around highly deleterious and neutral mutations.[63] Boththeories agree that ... advantageous mutations are rare, which has been supported by experimental results."?

Also, please go back to my original link, where it says in black and white that whole genome sequencing has indeed shown that most denovo mutations are deleterious, whether strongly or weakly.

 
Well - I don't deny that advantageous mutations are rare.

I claim that both advantageous and deleterious are rare.
 

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