Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 51

Thread: U5a1b1 in Spanish Bell Beaker

  1. #1
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    2 members found this post helpful.

    U5a1b1 in Spanish Bell Beaker

    Once upon a time in the West : paleogenetic analyses on Mesolithic to Early Bronze Age individuals from the Iberian Peninsula

    Loads of new Mesolithic-Bronze age Iberian mtDNA was just released. Only one sample is Mesolithic and its U5b. K1a, T2b, J1c, H1, H3, and U5b dominated Iberian mtDNA from the Neolithic to the Bronze age and still does today. N1a1a is less frequent than in Neolithic Anatolia and Central Europe. Neolithic Iberian mtDNA is most similar to French Neolithic mtDNA.

    The first appearance of U5a is in Bell Beaker. U5 was frequent in all periods but all of it was U5b. One Bell Beaker U5a is U5a1b1 and dates to 2492-2334 cal BC. I consider U5a1b1 a Steppe lineage because in ancient European mtDNA it only exists in heavily Steppe admixed people.

  2. #2
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,298


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for sharing. This is a great compilation of ancient Iberian mtDNA! It includes all previous studies to date as well as 344 new samples from 56 locations ranging from the Early Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age. The list of locations can be found on pages 60 to 63, while the mtDNA haplogroups are listed from pages 79 to 88.

    Unfortunately I found that the tables are rather poorly organised. They are listed by alphabetical order of sites, and not by period, so one has to constantly check which site corresponds to which period. To make it worse, some sites cover different period and there is no mention of which samples belong to which period. For example, the Humaneros samples are Chalcolithic Bell Beaker and non-Bell Beaker and Bronze Age, but we don't know which are which.


    Here are the clearly Bell Beaker mtDNA samples listed (from Arroyal I, Cova de la Ventosa, El Hundido and El Juncal):

    - H
    - K (x9)
    - J (x2)
    - T2e
    - U5a1
    - U5a1b1
    - U5a1c
    - U5b
    - U5b3 (x3)
    - V
    - X

    Except for he U5a1, all of them look very much like typical Iberian Neolithic samples. Too bad the deep clades of H, J and K aren't available, but such a high percentage of K (40% here) was only found in Neolithic populations, not Steppe invaders. Even U5a1 could have been present in Iberia since the Palaeolithic or Mesolithic. U5b is more common in western Europe, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of a small percentage of U5a1. So, in my opinion, these results don't necessarily show that Steppe people were present in Bell Beaker Iberia, and if they were, they were undoubtedly a small minority. Actually it would be quite odd that the Steppe invaders carried only U5a1, and none of the other typical Steppe mtDNA lineages, like I, J1b1a, T1a1a, U2e, U4a and W (+ some H and K subclades).
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  3. #3
    Regular Member berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Except for he U5a1, all of them look very much like typical Iberian Neolithic samples.
    U5a was found already in Early Neolithic and Calcholithic sites of the Basque Country...: Ancient DNA in the Cantabrian fringe populations: A mtDNA study from Prehistory to Late Antiquity.

    Maybe a deeper subclade research would tell more.

    For U5a1b1 itself, this German BB got his mtDNA from the east or from the west (as its cultural traits)?
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  4. #4
    MarkoZ
    Guest


    You left out all the interesting parts. The author's discussion of the findings starts on p. 134.

    Iberian Breaker Groups are already significantly differentiated from other Chalcolithic groups:

    The two Bell Beaker groups show significantdifferences on haplogroup level to Chalcolithic non-Bell Beaker from the Southern Mesetaand all Early and Late Neolithic groups with strong genetic hunter-gatherer background(NSE, CPE, and EVN) (see table 13, p.91). They are clearly separated from all otherChalcolithic groups in PCA, cluster analysis, and MDS (see fig. 16–18, pp.89–96).
    Central African maternal lineage in Bell Beaker:

    The only new haplogroup found in the Bell Beaker dataset was the sub-Saharan lineage ofhaplogroup L1b in the Southern Meseta. All other haplogroups have already been detectedin previous periods. To date, the evidence of a typical African lineage (L1b) on the IberianPeninsula and not even on the coast but right in the heart of the research area is the firstsecurely proven clue for African influence on Spain or Portugal in early prehistory. To findAfrican influence in a Bell Beaker individual is of particular interest due to the fact that somemodels have emphasized the importance of North Africa on the genesis of the Bell Beakerphenomenon (TUREK 2012).
    Early Bell Beaker not associated with mtDNA H:

    "A common feature that is shared between the two Bell Beaker groups [in the Mesetas] and that separates them from other Chalcolithic groups is the low amount of haplogroup H and the presence of haplogroup U5a, which was – apart from the Bell Beaker groups – only found in one Late Neolithic individual from Portugal and the Portuguese Chalcolithic site of Perdigões."
    The general pattern seems to indicate that the Neolithic nucleus was located in North-Eastern Spain, while there was something quite different going on in the south and in the center of Iberia. The latter seems to be significantly correlated with the emergence of the Bell Beaker phenomenon.

  5. #5
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    71
    Posts
    4,734

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    All the conclusions we can do about the "BB" mtDNA is linked to the social structure of these groups. I fear the late so called BB societies mtDNA could be very different from the initial BB societies mtDNA, IF we can speak of a stable and perduring BB society as a compact whole crossing the centuries without any change. I'm still confused and wait the coming results of other studies where I hope we 'll have complete DNA analysis and why not, some metric anthropologic ones.
    African mt DNA? I 've no ready to use answer; I just remember some Celtic traditions speaking of a Mediterranean-North African tour before settling in the Great Isles. I don't put too much credit in these legends but very often they contain a little bit of truth, and as BBs has surely participated in the "Celtic" history or have been absorbed by the Celts so passed their own history as a part of the Celts one... Only a furtive thought, to put some fun in the debate.
    What I retain - without giving it too much weight according to the reasoning I wrote in some lines before - is the weak presence of mt-H among these BBs OF SPAIN. So the strong presence of mt-H in Western Europe is not DIRECTLY linked to Iberian BBs? or diverse BBs moves took different roads involving different local wives? terrestrial ways and maritime ways? I wait.

  6. #6
    Elite member Coriolan's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-12-12
    Posts
    197


    Country: Switzerland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    In summary, Bell Beaker mtDNA in this study was similar to that of late Neolithic Portugal and central Spain. It had little haplogroup H but lots of K, U5a and U5b. African mtDNA was also found. It doesn't look like in migration from Eastern Europe to me. More like an expansion from Portugal.

  7. #7
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    71
    Posts
    4,734

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolan View Post
    In summary, Bell Beaker mtDNA in this study was similar to that of late Neolithic Portugal and central Spain. It had little haplogroup H but lots of K, U5a and U5b. African mtDNA was also found. It doesn't look like in migration from Eastern Europe to me. More like an expansion from Portugal.
    Someones link Western European mt DNA H to BBs (I asked for some caution concerning the dates of mt-H expansion from West into Central Europe; it seems ir could be older than Chalcolithic but we lack western France Mesolithic/Neolithic mt-DNA helas); but here let's read well: Iberian BBs (the ones studied lately) LACK mt-H!!!
    concerning Portugal, I doubt LNE of Portugal lacked mt-H, rather the opposite, and since a long time I think. What I understood in other papers is that mt-DNA in Southern Iberia changed more between ENE and MNE/LNE than did Northeastern Iberia; but the new mt-DNA was from Near-Eastern origin too as a whole if I red well, and neolithical enough. I wait for analysis of other forumers because I could not access to the doc.

  8. #8
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolan View Post
    In summary, Bell Beaker mtDNA in this study was similar to that of late Neolithic Portugal and central Spain. It had little haplogroup H but lots of K, U5a and U5b. African mtDNA was also found. It doesn't look like in migration from Eastern Europe to me. More like an expansion from Portugal.
    Neolithic Portuguese mtDNA was essentially identical to Neolithic Spanish mtDNA. We don't have enough Neolithic Portugese mtDNA to make a comparsion to Neolithic Spain. U5a is arguable the signature of Steppe mtDNA. In Central Europe it was nearly nonexistent before Steppe people arrived. It even takes up a decent percentage of mtDNA U in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India where we know a decent amount of Steppe ancestry exists. Also, U5a1b1 may literally be a Steppe lineage. U5a has probably existed in Iberia for some 20,000 years but I guarantee you U5a1b1 first arrived less than 5,000 years ago.

  9. #9
    Regular Member berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Iberian BBs (the ones studied lately) LACK mt-H!!!
    in page 134 the author says that it's possible to distinguish between Bell Beakers and non Bell Beakers... so it points to migration.

    By the way Yese3, 8, 13, Hume2, 8, 19, 21, 24, Hig2 and Roy3 were H (mostly H1).

  10. #10
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,228


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    The full abstract


    While the amount of ancient Iberian genetic data has increased over the last years, few studies have focused on population dynamic processes beyond the immediate period of the Neolithic transition. In this study, the Iberian dataset was enlarged by SNP-based haplogroup information for 249 new Mesolithic to Early Bronze Age individuals and 187 reproduced HVR I sequences. These new data allow confident insights into post-Neolithisation population dynamic processes on the Iberian Peninsula and make it possible to compare the development of Iberian and Central European groups over a time span of about 4,000 years.

    The results of this study reveal a strong genetic regionalization of Iberian groups throughout the Neolithic and partially in the Chalcolithic. A considerable amount of hunter-gatherer maternal heritage persisted during the Iberian Early Neolithic. The greatest amount of “Neolithic” lineages/haplogroups (HV, J, K, N1a, T2, V, and X) has been found in Northeast Spain and Aragón, suggesting these regions were the main entrance for Neolithic lineages into the Iberian Peninsula, while the amount of mitochondrial hunter-gatherer influence increases with growing distance from these regions, pointing to various forms of Neolithic transitions on the Iberian Peninsula. In some areas genetic continuity between Early and Late Neolithic seems highly likely (Ebro Valley) while other regions show large genetic differences to the preceding period (Central Portugal, Northern Meseta). Central Iberian Bell Beaker groups are genetically distinct to most other Chalcolithic groups.

    Although a substantial number of Early Neolithic Iberian individuals share direct sequence hits to contemporary individuals of the Central European Linear pottery culture, the amount of hunter-gatherer mitochondrial heritage is considerably greater in all regions of the Iberian Peninsula than in Central Europe. No genetic connection between Iberian and Central European Bell Beakers or the Corded Ware culture could be found. When focusing on the distribution of sub-clades of haplogroup H, differences between the Iberian Peninsula and the groups from other parts of Europe were recognizable. In the Iberian samples set only sub-haplogroups H1 and H3 could be identified. While H1 was present in all Early and Later Neolithic groups from Central and Western Europe, H3 shows strong Western European affinities and is not detectable in Central Europe before the Middle Neolithic. While no strong differences in sub-haplogroup H variability among Iberian groups of different epochs could be detected, a clear shift between Central Europe´s Early and Middle Neolithic is recognizable.


    https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de...00000815&la=en

  11. #11
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    in page 134 the author says that it's possible to distinguish between Bell Beakers and non Bell Beakers... so it points to migration.

    By the way Yese3, 8, 13, Hume2, 8, 19, 21, 24, Hig2 and Roy3 were H (mostly H1).
    True but the only thing which really makes Spanish Bell Beaker differnt from Spanish Neolithic is those three U5a1s. It appears the reason they're distinguishable from Spanish Neolithic, besides the U5a1, is they were ethnic/family relatives. Many of them shared the same "family"(extended family) maternal line while Spanish Neolithic samples weren't effected by this.

    One thing we can confident of is that Spanish Bell Beaker had mostly "EEF" mtDNA. They weren't pure Yamnaya people who flew a plane to Spain. Some of their EEFs ancestors could have been from outside of Spain; ones Steppe people mixed with a long the way, and some could have been from Spain.

  12. #12
    Regular Member berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't understand why you stick on the Yamnayan side of these U5a, as even no steppe subclade is found in such Bell Beaker samples (I have checked it and Yamnayans had U5a1i, U5a1d and U5a1a1), and that is in fact pointing out just the contrary what you are suggesting.

    U5a is a HG clade found already in Motala, and as said before, U5a was found in Early Neolithic and Chalco sites of the Basque country; maybe a higher res would have delivered these BB subclades.

  13. #13
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I don't understand why you stick on the Yamnayan side of these U5a, as even no steppe subclade is found in such Bell Beaker samples (I have checked it and Yamnayans had U5a1i, U5a1d and U5a1a1), and that is in fact pointing out just the contrary what you are suggesting.

    U5a is a HG clade found already in Motala, and as said before, U5a was found in Early Neolithic and Chalco sites of the Basque country; maybe a higher res would have delivered these BB subclades.
    The Motala HGs contributed noneligable ancestry to modern Europeans. They're an extinct people. They had lots of U5a because they were half EHG like Yamnaya was. U5a existed in Western Europe before Steppe people arrived but it was much much less popular. U5a was frequent in Steppe populations, it's one of the signatures of their mtDNA. U5a1b1 specifically appears to have originated on the Steppe. Just wait for when we get Iberian Bell Beaker genomes in early 2017. They'll have Steppe ancestry.

  14. #14
    Regular Member berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    If we had U5a in HG Motala (Sweden) it could be said as much that this clade could be westerner, earstern or pan-European, but as this same clade appears in Early Neolithic Basque Country... at least to me it gives a pan-European extension, because how could be otherwise that Scandinavian HG or East Europe HG able to travel till the fringe of Europe when EEF were spreading then ?

    Once you have pan-European (this clade appears around 18000 BC) it's possible even to understand its low presence in Algeria.

    I don't think that U5a was "less popular" in Western Europe if it was able to deliver regional subclades that are not known in the steppes and even precede Samara and Yamna...

    For Bell Beaker genomes you have even the answer in the German genomes itself; they stablished in a Corded Ware milieu (70% of "steppe" ancestry and very high in R1a), but they provide here a 50% of "steppe" ancestry with high in R1b. As supposedly R1b males could not be the cause to lose in such area their "steppe" component, it's evident that such work was done so by farmer women (which is against your supposition also), but if we need more farmer women to do such percent, it's mandatory to get them from a high EEF region, isn't? Or you can you explain how and where did they acquired such differential percents?

  15. #15
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    1 members found this post helpful.
    @berun,

    I don't think U5a originated in Russia. I don't think U5a was exclusive to Russia. I know it was much more popular in Russia. We have close to 100 mtDNA samples from pre-Neolithic Western Europe, very very very few had U5a. Case closed, U5a was rare. U5a in Bell Beaker is therefore an indication they had ancestry from Russia, it isn't prove, but it's evidence.

  16. #16
    MarkoZ
    Guest


    There's also this U5a1* in Chalcolithic Portugal:



    source: http://www.uc.pt/en/cia/grupos/app/Posters/Posteres2011/Afonso_et_al_2011

    Not sure about U5a1b1 specifically, but it seems more Western European to me. U5a1a in contrast looks like it was associated with the Eastern European forest cultures.
    Last edited by MarkoZ; 14-12-16 at 15:54.

  17. #17
    Regular Member berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    The principal facts are not if U5a was very very rare in Western Europe but if it was relatively present in the area of formation of the Bell Beakers, and that no steppe subclade is found in BB. Case closed, just Occam's razor is cuting the line and in science it's necessary to deliver possitive proofs, not beliefs.

    Something to say about the lesser admuxture of the German BB?

  18. #18
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,646

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    They should differentiate between U5a2 and U5a1. The former was a WHG marker, the latter an EHG marker.

    Was there any U5a1 in Pre-Bell-Beaker (Copper Age / Neolithic) samples from Iberia, or only U5a* and U5a2?

  19. #19
    Regular Member berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Precisely in the link provided by MarkoZ you have in Monte Canelas I a Portuguese Chalcolithic U5a1*, the others had not so much res: U5a1 in Bom Santo Calchothic, U5a in Early Basque Country, another in Calcholithic Basque Country, another in Calcholic Perdigoes site.

    So the BB U5a derive from these ones or it must be accepted that they traveled 4000 km without other known steppe mtDNA? with Occam's razor in hand I know what to choose.

  20. #20
    MarkoZ
    Guest


    I got a little confused with my previous post. I originally meant to link to the U5a1 cave-dweller in southern-central Portugal cited in the following paper:

    http://researchonline.ljmu.ac.uk/710...S-15-00013.pdf

    He's dated to 3780 +/- 65 BC. Definitely a bit early for an Eastern European arrival.

  21. #21
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Oh my gosh, you guys are so stubborn. I NEVER SAID ALL U5a is EHG!!! Of course it existed in Western Europe before Steppe people arrived. I said it was more popular there, we know it was because of literally over 1000 ancient mtDNA samples. How can you not understand the difference between higher frequency and exclusiveness? U5a was much much more frequent in the Steppe than the rest of Europe but it wasn't exclusive to the Steppe, so a few U5a samples in Neolithic Iberia isn't good evidence the U5a1 in Bell Beaker is native!

    Why can't you just admit three U5a1s in a small collection of Spanish Bell Beaker is evidence of Steppe admixture? In an abstract about an upcoming paper with 100s of Bell Beaker genomes they hinted towards everyone in the culture having Steppe admixture.

  22. #22
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    They should differentiate between U5a2 and U5a1. The former was a WHG marker, the latter an EHG marker.
    Where did you hear that? EHG is part WHG. Ultimately all U5a is probably WHG.

  23. #23
    Regular Member berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Just the contrary, the U5a clades in the BB samples are not found in steppe. You are trying to get water from an empty well. And for your numbers, just they have the same sense as to say that as there are more Piotrs in Russia then the Spanish Pedros must be Russian, no matter if there was some people signing as Petrus in Spain in the middle ages.

    Can you provide a link or copy of the abstract explaining about the steppe admixture in BB? mainly because it's like you take things just the contrary how they are.

  24. #24
    Elite member Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Just the contrary, the U5a clades in the BB samples are not found in steppe.
    U5a1b1 hasn't been found directly on the Steppe but it has been found in heavily Steppe admixed people from Europe. I've seen its presence all over modern Europe.

    U5a1b1 Bell Beaker Spain, 2492-2334 cal BC
    U5a1b1 Corded Ware Germany, -
    U5a1b1 Bell Beaker Germany, 2500-2050 BC
    U5a1b1 Unetice Poland, 1885-1693 calBCE
    U5a1b1 BA Ireland, 2026–1885 BC


    What matters most is not the subclade but that close to 50% of EHG had U5a, 20% of Yamnaya had U5a, 10%+ of later Corded Ware and Andronovo had U5a. About 100% of EHG and Yamnaya U5's was U5a, 65% of Middle Neolithic German U5 was U5b. In this new paper with ancient Iberian mtDNA, the U5a from Bell Beaker was the first intsnace of U5a after countless U5bs. U5as from the Portugese Neolithic came from another study they referenced and isn't relaible anyways because it's so old.

    Three U5a1s is very very good evidence of Steppe admixture. Like I said before you need to apply presence vs frequency. Presence doesn't prove anything. Every haplogroup can exist everywhere. But if a haplogroup is several times more popular somewhere else than that said haplogroup somewhere else probably came from there. The prescene of U5a in Neolithic Iberia is evidence of nothing!

    We have dozens of sites from all over the Steppe showing U5a. We only have what a handful of sites form Neolithic Iberia, or is it only one site from Portugal? How is that comparable evidence to what we have from the Steppe?

    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Can you provide a link or copy of the abstract explaining about the steppe admixture in BB? mainly because it's like you take things just the contrary how they are.
    I couldn't find the abstract but I could find this.
    Bell Beaker Beheamoth coming real soon

    The guy who spoke; Volker Heyd, focused on archaeology but knows the DNA results for 200 Bell beaker genomes from all over Western Europe. With this knowledge and more importantly archaeological knowledge he thinks Bell Beaker is from the Yamnaya culture.

    I remember reading an abstract from that upcoming paper saying something like "It'll show the Western and Eastern edges of Europe were connected in ways once thought impossible." Maybe I remember wrongly and maybe that quote isn't from the abstract of the upcoming Bell Beaker paper.

  25. #25
    Regular Member berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,085


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    2 members found this post helpful.
    So all Spanish Pedros are Russian?

    Well, I thought that the example could be understood by all, but you stick on it. The case is that if you wish to say that the Spanish Pedros are Russian you must prove that there is a migration (archaeology) and that the name Pedro evolved from Piotr instead from, let's say, a single case of Petrus in Spain, because as with signatures, samples are not statistics as they are a biased source (money spent in archaeology, by better preservation, by better luck, by regional incidence, number of people buried in a place, etc.).

    You show the cases of U5a1b1 in Central Europe, they are admixed with steppes? but they postdate BB presence in the region, so how you can distinguish between local mtDNA, BB mtDNA, steppe DNA, much more when such subclade was not found in the steppes (!)?

    In this new paper with ancient Iberian mtDNA, the U5a from Bell Beaker was the first intsnace of U5a after countless U5bs. U5as from the Portugese Neolithic came from another study they referenced and isn't relaible anyways because it's so old.
    You just aren't reading my posts neither the thesis of Roth. In science it's necessary first to read before to write, otherwise we would be like dogs barking.

    Three U5a1s is very very good evidence of Steppe admixture. Like I said before you need to apply presence vs frequency. Presence doesn't prove anything. Every haplogroup can exist everywhere. But if a haplogroup is several times more popular somewhere else than that said haplogroup somewhere else probably came from there. The prescene of U5a in Neolithic Iberia is evidence of nothing!
    So R1b was formed in Western Europe? interesting case; case done for the Bell Beakers so.

    I remember reading an abstract from that upcoming paper saying something like "It'll show the Western and Eastern edges of Europe were connected in ways once thought impossible."
    aha! so as I figured out the IE came riding sirens!

    Seriously, for another interpretation of Heyd you can look at it

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •