Population History of Sardinia

I know you guys love this idea, but there's no way of knowing yet.

Given the copper prospecting in the Alps it's just as likely that Otzi is the result of migrations from the Balkans.

In fact, although people not really familiar with Italian pre-history don't seem to understand it, a vast amount of gene flow entered Italy from across the Adriatic.

Take a look at the distribution on eupedia maps of J2. Note that it's just as high if not higher on the east coast of central Italy as it is in southern Italy.

Plus, Greece, Albania, etc. all have more "Caucasus" than Italy, even southern Italy in any decent calculator.
 
that extra WHG could have come from anywhere
some think I2-M26 expanded from Iberia

Why not also some from later on from the Balkans?
 
Maybe let's split the difference and call it Southern France (I-M26-wise).

My particular brand of M26 seems to be closer to Spaniards. There's a paper trail tracing us dudes all the way back to Berne in 1524. Where they were before that could be anyone's guess, but given my, and my father's propensity to sit on the couch I can't imagine they'd moved far beforehand.
 
Why not from Italy? Weren't Remedello I-M26 and Sardinian like genetically? I'm not saying that Sardinians derive directly from Remedello but that both populations came from an ancient population that once lived in North-Central (and South?) Italy.

that extra WHG could have come from anywhere
some think I2-M26 expanded from Iberia

maybe, but for me is more plausible that some WHG survived in the interior of the island...neolithic sites are in fact much more diffused in the coasts of Sardinia than in the inland mountains. The same is true for the Copper Age cultures (Bell Beaker).

the new paper probably will answer these questions..
 
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Sardinians are 10% Yamnaya? Where did you read this?

Chiang et al, "Population history of the Sardinian people inferred from whole-genome sequencing", supp info.

See my post here (17-12-2017 14:59)

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33237-Population-History-of-Sardinia?goto=newpost

Actually is more like 5-10% depending on the area, in Ogliastra however is 0-1% except in in Ilbono (7%)

the distribuition of R1b also decrease depending on the territory examined, from 20-25% in the west, south and north to 4% in the Gennargentu

So in Sardinia, as in Spain, R1b and steppe admixture seems related (still i don't believe that R1b came from the steppe)

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Chiang et al, "Population history of the Sardinian people inferred from whole-genome sequencing", supp info.

See my post here (17-12-2017 14:59)

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33237-Population-History-of-Sardinia?goto=newpost

Actually is more like 5-10% depending on the area, in Ogliastra however is 0-1% except in in Ilbono (7%)

the distribuition of R1b also decrease depending on the territory examined, from 20-25% in the west, south and north to 4% in the Gennargentu

So in Sardinia, as in Spain, R1b and steppe admixture seems related (still i don't believe that R1b came from the steppe)

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That's still very low considering Romans killed/deported 80,000 rebels in one of their wars against the Sardinians, I still don't understand how can Sardinians be so similar to Neolithic Europeans considering how many bloody wars and rebellions there were there against the Romans.
 
That's still very low considering Romans killed/deported 80,000 rebels in one of their wars against the Sardinians, I still don't understand how can Sardinians be so similar to Neolithic Europeans considering how many bloody wars and rebellions there were there against the Romans.
IMO R1b and "yamnaya" admixture in Sardinia is more Bell Beaker than Roman. I believe that already Bonnanaro samples will show R1b-U152 and steppe admixture... will see

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That's still very low considering Romans killed/deported 80,000 rebels in one of their wars against the Sardinians, I still don't understand how can Sardinians be so similar to Neolithic Europeans considering how many bloody wars and rebellions there were there against the Romans.

The Romans were cost effective, practical conquerors, not overly influenced by emotion, except perhaps in the case of the Carthaginians. Why would they waste resources on some shepherds holed up on an inhospitable plain like the area around Ogliastra.

They probably also inflated the "kill" number, like the U.S. in Vietnam. I doubt they completely decimated the Celt-Ligures and the Apuani either. According to Luigi Cavalli Sforza they retreated to the northern Apennines and the Apuan Alps, from which some of them then returned later.
 
The Romans were cost effective, practical conquerors, not overly influenced by emotion, except perhaps in the case of the Carthaginians. Why would they waste resources on some shepherds holed up on an inhospitable plain like the area around Ogliastra.

They probably also inflated the "kill" number, like the U.S. in Vietnam. I doubt they completely decimated the Celt-Ligures and the Apuani either. According to Luigi Cavalli Sforza they retreated to the northern Apennines and the Apuan Alps, from which some of them then returned later.

the kill numbers maybe but i wouldn't be so sure about the enslaved or deported numbers. they were kept low because otherwise the conquerors would have had to pay additional taxes. and back then noone conquered someone for emotional reasons for no reason. and the romans were not more practical or impractical conquereors than others. but when someone hurt their pride they got quite emotional. and they also never held back when someone did question their sovereignty.
 
the kill numbers maybe but i wouldn't be so sure about the enslaved or deported numbers. they were kept low because otherwise the conquerors would have had to pay additional taxes.

I don't understand what you're saying there.
 
i ment to say that when a roman leader captured like 1000 slaves he maybe only captured 500 officially because they had to pay taxes for every captured and sold slave.
 
i ment to say that when a roman leader captured like 1000 slaves he only captured 500 officially because they had to pay taxes for every captured and sold slave.
A single leader had to pay that much? For each of the 500 slaves?
 
i ment to say that when a roman leader captured like 1000 slaves he only captured 500 officially because they had to pay taxes for every captured and sold slave.

Please provide some documentation for that, and explain how that would mean it would be better not to inflate the number of slaves taken.
 
The Romans were cost effective, practical conquerors, not overly influenced by emotion, except perhaps in the case of the Carthaginians. Why would they waste resources on some shepherds holed up on an inhospitable plain like the area around Ogliastra.

They probably also inflated the "kill" number, like the U.S. in Vietnam. I doubt they completely decimated the Celt-Ligures and the Apuani either. According to Luigi Cavalli Sforza they retreated to the northern Apennines and the Apuan Alps, from which some of them then returned later.

Agree with you. Caesar, it seems, inflated a bit the number of "his" vanquished people; and Sardinia, a stone surrounded by sea, has never been the land for huge demographic colonization, as its today population seem still showing; so, crossings, mixing, but not at a high scale.
Celts in Eastern Andalusia? I dont think so. THis region had surely a denser pop than a lot of other regions of Spain, with long tradition of evolved cultures, among them CHA and BA El Argar I suppose come from East Mediterranea and not Steppes via North.
apart and answering other posts:
Mozarab is a linguistic term (not the best it's true) and was a latin dialect of central and southern Iberia under Muslims controle; it had some intermediary Ibero-latin traits but for I know had not the peculiarities shared by Galician and Portuguese; it conserved the initial F- as other Iberian dialects at the exception of Castillan (H-) but it is not a typical trait - I can go deeper in details if someone wants but it is not the very thread and others can surely do the same as me. Today Andaluse seems a Castillan dialect spoken by different people, with very different phonetic habits -
For Urnfields, I don't know for Spain but in other parts of Western Europe it has implied pops moves and increase in demic densities, with some anthropologic traces from Northern-Central Europe in France Rhône region by example. Only Celts, not sure, I don't know. We can suppose they were Celtic speaking in Iberia, at least the elites, spite we can also suppose other Celts were arrived in Northern Spain already before them. Maybe a wave of archaic Celtic speakers, like in Ireland? Unsteady ground without proof.
According to some scholars, Iberic language would have had some Basque- or Aquitan-like loanwords as well as some Celtic loanwords.For me it could have been absent at first in Andalusia/Murcia... ATW a not negligeable number of words seem of a common origin in Basque and Iberic and general phonetical tendancies link both, with a slight opposition to Aquitanian; I wonder if the Iberic basis would not have been a far cousin of Aquitano-Basque or "Gasco-Aquitanian", with modern Basque being a Gasco-Aquitanian imported more recently into South the Pyrenees, and submitted there to common phonetic habits proper to some ancient Iberia folks and a bit different from the North Pyrenees habits?
I would be glad to can date the first apparition of the lineages of DF27 in Iberia; when and where?
 
i ment to say that when a roman leader captured like 1000 slaves he maybe only captured 500 officially because they had to pay taxes for every captured and sold slave.

Sounds like tax fraud, I'm sure punishment for that was harsh back then
 
The Romans were cost effective, practical conquerors, not overly influenced by emotion, except perhaps in the case of the Carthaginians. Why would they waste resources on some shepherds holed up on an inhospitable plain like the area around Ogliastra.

They probably also inflated the "kill" number, like the U.S. in Vietnam. I doubt they completely decimated the Celt-Ligures and the Apuani either. According to Luigi Cavalli Sforza they retreated to the northern Apennines and the Apuan Alps, from which some of them then returned later.

I wasn't talking about Ogliastra specifically but about the areas like the plains and the coasts where I expected to find more mainland Italian or Southern Italian like people, except for the coastal cities of the South which were already pacified after the first Punic war, the cities of the Western coast like Tharros and Cornus rebelled against the Romans and suffered major losses, Cornus was sacked if I remember correctly, Quintus Ennius himself fought in Sardinia during the second punic war. Also it is the Romans themselves that report seven triumphs against the Sardinians from the first punic war all the way into the end of the second century bc, and Ogliastra doesn't have plains it's all mountains. Silius Italicus later on even mentioned the duel between the Sardinian rebel Hostus and Ennius in a mythical fashion, Sardinia was full of mines and fertile plains so I can see why they bothered, saying that it was just "a rock in the sea" while Cicero reports that the island was one of three "granary of Rome" is misguided. Also the numbers might be somewhat inflated by the Romans but they even created the expression "Sardi venales" to designate goods at a low price since after their campaigns there was an enormous number of Sardinian slaves flooding the slave market.
 
I wasn't talking about Ogliastra specifically but about the areas like the plains and the coasts where I expected to find more mainland Italian or Southern Italian like people, except for the coastal cities of the South which were already pacified after the first Punic war, the cities of the Western coast like Tharros and Cornus rebelled against the Romans and suffered major losses, Cornus was sacked if I remember correctly, Quintus Ennius himself fought in Sardinia during the second punic war. Also it is the Romans themselves that report seven triumphs against the Sardinians from the first punic war all the way into the end of the second century bc, and Ogliastra doesn't have plains it's all mountains. Silius Italicus later on even mentioned the duel between the Sardinian rebel Hostus and Ennius in a mythical fashion, Sardinia was full of mines and fertile plains so I can see why they bothered, saying that it was just "a rock in the sea" while Cicero reports that the island was one of three "granary of Rome" is misguided. Also the numbers might be somewhat inflated by the Romans but they even created the expression "Sardi venales" to designate goods at a low price since after their campaigns there was an enormous number of Sardinian slaves flooding the slave market.

Sardinian genetics wouldn't change because Sardinians were enslaved and taken off the island. Sardinian genetics would change if there were a folk migration onto the island. It didn't happen. At most there was some gene flow filtering down from Corsica to the northern tip, where you get some change in ydna, and there was some Carthaginian impact in the southwestern area. That's it. So, in those areas, the Sardinians are a bit closer to other populations. Still, overall, even in those areas, while they may have some additional steppe or West Asian, they're still pretty EEF. There's no getting away from it: if you want genetically isolated populations with a lot of drift there's nothing like high mountain valleys and islands.
 
Agree with you. Caesar, it seems, inflated a bit the number of "his" vanquished people; and Sardinia, a stone surrounded by sea, has never been the land for huge demographic colonization, as its today population seem still showing; so, crossings, mixing, but not at a high scale.

I would be glad to can date the first apparition of the lineages of DF27 in Iberia; when and where?

It's not as rocky as Corsica, there are huge plains in the western part, the Campidano and Nurra (the areas with R1b and moderate steppe admixture)

DF27 in Iberia IMO must be of Bell Beaker origin because Basques have it and especcialy if it came from the north only Bell Beakers could have brought it becuase there werent Urnfields or Celts in the Basque country

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It's not as rocky as Corsica, there are huge plains in the western part, the Campidano and Nurra (the areas with R1b and moderate steppe admixture)

DF27 in Iberia IMO must be of Bell Beaker origin because Basques have it and especcialy if it came from the north only Bell Beakers could have brought it becuase there werent Urnfields or Celts in the Basque country

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I don't mean to be rude, but it's irrelevant. The only relevant question is whether there were folk migrations to Sardinia in later periods which might have changed the overall genomics. The answer is that there were no such recorded movements.

I also don't know where you get the idea that Sardinia, coast or plateau, was such a paradise for agriculturalists. It's not the Po Valley. Sardinians were extremely poor shepherds for most of their history.
 

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