Z382 Saxon or Scandinavian

[mwauthy]

Im a bit confused about subclade I-Z382. Its under Z58 which is west germanic. All the research ive done on the internet refers to it being anglo-saxon or saxon and on the eupedia phylogenetic tree of I1 the past few years its been labeled as anglo-saxon as well. However, on the eupedia phylogenetic i1 tree of october 2016 its labeled now as Scandinavian. What new information caused that change?
My haplogroup is I-Z2040 which is under Z59 but above Z382 and L1450. I am going to get tested for both of those subclades. My paternity traces back to Wallonia Belgium and my surname is a French version of a German name so I believe I have Frankish roots or maybe Saxon.

[Maciamo]

Z382 is a broadly Germanic clade in itself since it was formed almost 4000 years ago. Z2040 is even older.

Z382 is found in Scandinavia, North Germany, the Netherlands, England and Lowland Scotland, which makes it both Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon, which makes sense considering its age. Only deep clades will tell you which is which. As for the labels on the I1 tree, there is only so much that can be written in so little space. The label are just meant to help visualising the broader distribution patterns. For more details, you should check the descriptions in the text below. I changed the name on the tree from Anglo-Saxon to Scandinavian and it became clear that Z382 was also found in Scandinavia - and beyond in places with no Anglo-Saxon connection like Croatia. While Anglo-Saxons can be seen as a branch that split off from Scandinavians, the reverse is not true. Hence I'd keep the 'Anglo-Saxon' appellation for deeper subclades found specifically in Britain.

However if your patrilineal line is from Wallonia, it is almost certainly of Frankish origin, since the Saxon and Vikings only settled in coastal Flanders (around Bruges).

[mwauthy]

Thanks for the clarification and all the work you do on this website. I wonder how many years from now and how many more people will need to get tested before we have subclades from like 1000 years ago that can be definitely assigned to certain tribes? Or maybe that will be impossible due to all the migrations back and forth, wars, and intermixing.

[Maciamo]

Thanks for the clarification and all the work you do on this website. I wonder how many years from now and how many more people will need to get tested before we have subclades from like 1000 years ago that can be definitely assigned to certain tribes? Or maybe that will be impossible due to all the migrations back and forth, wars, and intermixing.

It's not so much the number of people that need to be tested but the number of SNPs tested. Once full Y-chromosome or full genome tests will become more common, the tree will fill up with very recent subclades, some going back only a few generations. But that also means that there will be thousands of subclades, even only under Z58, and it will become very heavy to handle. If we tested all the full Y chromosomes worldwide, there would be millions of subclades in total. Not gonna happen any time soon though.

[mwauthy]

Just got my results from family tree DNA and I tested positive for Z-382 so in deeper subclades the Saxons and Franks must share a recent ancestor in last 3800 years.