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Thread: E-m123*

  1. #26
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    So e-m123* is really present in Italy, quite interesting for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    Historically they did, you should read up on it
    I have read up on it, and the vast majority was forced out of Puglia or murdered; before that were relegated specific quarters. You should substantiate your claims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I have read up on it, and they a vast majority was forced out of Puglia, and before that were relegated specific quarters. You should substantiate your claims.
    Lmfaoo your trying to school me on Italian Jewish history, good luck. This thread is about E-M123* and not Italian Jewish history.

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    You're the one that had brought up the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    As for other E-M123 in Puglia, its probably a mix of E-M84 lines and the above 2 mentioned. Definitely some can turn out to Jewish, Puglia had the second strongest Jewish presence after Sicily.
    Thus I am responding to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Many Jews from Puglia have been dispersed, I highly doubt they have the "second highest presence" in Italy as you have stated

    ....

    I have read up on it, and the vast majority was forced out of Puglia or murdered; before that were relegated specific quarters. You should substantiate your claims.


    What kind of a response by you is that?

    Obviously you can't divorce history from the conversation of DNA. Why did you make the statement, if you do not wish to discuss it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    and pax augusta it is 2/113 not 2/117 not taht it make such big difference ...
    Right, it's 113, but you know, it doesn't change anything.



    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    The E-M123 found in Volterra is probably related to the ones found in La Spezia under E-PH3893, which is under E-L791>Y4970 branch.

    https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y4970/
    There are two from La Spezia, Liguria, and they both could be related to Napoleone (E-M34) and likely not to those from Volterra (E-M123*). Related to Napoleone in the sense of having a common ancestor, to be descendant from the same ancestor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    So e-m123* is really present in Italy, quite interesting for me.
    According to Karachanak et al. 2013 E-M123 is 1,9% among Bulgarians an they all are E-M34.

    Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You're the one that had brought up the topic.



    Thus I am responding to it.

    What kind of a response by you is that?

    Obviously you can't divorce history from the conversation of DNA. Why did you make the statement, if you do not wish to discuss it?
    I’m not talking to you, you don’t understand the difference when I say Probably, Could, Had, Likely. Your just looking to pick a fight, i’m not interested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Right, it's 113, but you know, it doesn't change anything.





    There are two from La Spezia, Liguria, and they both could be related to Napoleone (E-M34) and likely not to those from Volterra (E-M123*). Related to Napoleone in the sense of having a common ancestor, to be descendant from the same ancestor.




    According to Karachanak et al. 2013 E-M123 is 1,9% among Bulgarians.

    Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779
    Pax, yes that is good point, I was saying that E-PH3893 is found in La Spezia geographically its too not far from Volterra, its a good possibility. The thing is even E-M123* is too broad, it could belong to either E-L791 or E-M84 branches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    I’m not talking to you, you don’t understand the difference when I say Probably, Could, Had, Likely. Your just looking to pick a fight, i’m not interested.
    I am not interested in fighting, I am interested in civil discussion. I asked you why you said Puglia has the 2nd biggest Jewish presence in Italy when It was snuffed out over history. I am merely asking you a question.

    However, you have made several offensive assumptions against me in the course of the conversation. That I don't know what I'm talking about as inferred by your comment that my knowledge is apparently inferior to yours on the subject. Also, that I do not understand the difference between basic words. Further, that asking a question is construed as some kind of hostile action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I am not interested in fighting, I am interested in civil discussion. I asked you why you said Puglia has the 2nd biggest jewish presence in Italy when It was snuffed out over history. I am merely asking you a question.
    I said Had, look at my post again.

  10. #35
    Regular Member Valerius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post

    According to Karachanak et al. 2013 E-M123 is 1,9% among Bulgarians.

    Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779
    Karachenak et al. detected E-M34, so I was told. There is also another Bulgarian who is
    like me (xM34) found in some research 18 years ago. My male line is Vlach however, so it must be
    also present in the Romanians. Probably common pre-Slavic stuff.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here is what Maciamo has to say on the subject:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    So, I guess you'd have to see if you can run the strs from the Boattini et al sample and see if it can point you to anything more specific. It's not resolved in Grugni.

    As for FTDNA, this is the link I looked at. I only scanned it quickly, but I didn't see any Y6923 anywhere in Italy.

    There is no E-M123 in Toscana, or even in Puglia, since it was brought up, on this list.

    Is there some other source to which I can look? Grugni doesn't resolve it for either place. As I said, there are the three samples in Boattini for which samples can be run.

    In the future, if I could ask posters who are speculating about the origin or ethnicity of a specific clade to give us more detailed information about the samples they are using as to number, specific snp or whether strs are being used, and where they can be found. That would be most helpful.

    So far as I can see, we only have three unresolved samples in Boattini for Grosseto, for which we at least have strs. The ones for Volterra in Grugni are unresolved and there are no strs.

    I don't see any evidence for any specifically "Jewish" clade in Puglia. If anyone has it, please provide it. Indeed, if there are any samples anyone is aware of anywhere other than this, please provide them, so we can see if the conclusions proposed are reasonable.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    Pax, yes that is good point, I was saying that E-PH3893 is found in La Spezia geographically its too not far from Volterra, its a good possibility. The thing is even E-M123* is too broad, it could belong to either E-L791 or E-M84 branches.
    azurro my dear friend
    you have a point about apuglia {jewish past}
    but the ones here in volterra 2/113 1.8% are e-m123* you can see it in the table angela posted
    meaning they were checked for e-m34 mutation and found negetive like valerius
    i do think it is significant that they found e-m123% in volterra etruscan area even thoughit is low %
    kind regards
    adam

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Here is what Maciamo has to say on the subject:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    So, I guess you'd have to see if you can run the strs from the Boattini et al sample and see if it can point you to anything more specific. It's not resolved in Grugni.

    As for FTDNA, this is the link I looked at. I only scanned it quickly, but I didn't see any Y6923 anywhere in Italy.

    There is no E-M123 in Toscana, or even in Puglia, since it was brought up, on this list.

    Is there some other source to which I can look? Grugni doesn't resolve it for either place. As I said, there are the three samples in Boattini for which samples can be run.

    In the future, if I could ask posters who are speculating about the origin or ethnicity of a specific clade to give us more detailed information about the samples they are using as to number, specific snp or whether strs are being used, and where they can be found. That would be most helpful.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3b?iframe=ymap

    E-Y2947 is found in Bari, Y6923 does not exist in any population besides Ashkenazi Jews. Y6923 was never brought up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    I said Had, look at my post again.
    Saying a community had been there and that a current line is present makes what you're saying unclear. Moreover, as Angela stated, it was not found in Puglia according to that list. For the sake of the other readers, I will ask that you are clearer. Moreover, if presented with a question, about something you had stated; please respond in a non-confrontational manner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    azurro my dear friend
    you have a point about apuglia {jewish past}
    but the ones here in volterra 2/113 1.8% are e-m123* you can see it in the table angela posted
    meaning they were checked for e-m34 mutation and found negetive like valerius
    i do think it is significant that they found e-m123% in volterra etruscan area even thoughit is low %
    kind regards
    adam
    Kingjohn my dear friend, thanks for the support. The E-PH3893 found in La Spezia is probably very old, do we know that checked for M34? There are also 2 E-PF6759 found in Sardegna which are on Yfull, this too is under E-M34, if they did actually test for E-M34 and it turns out they are negative it only leaves Valerius’ subclade left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    azurro my dear friend
    you have a point about apuglia {jewish past}
    but the ones here in volterra 2/113 1.8% are e-m123* you can see it in the table angela posted
    meaning they were checked for e-m34 mutation and found negetive like valerius
    i do think it is significant that they found e-m123% in volterra etruscan area even thoughit is low %
    kind regards
    adam
    I'd like to understand your reasoning Kingjohn. What do you see in the Volterra results that couldn't be Neolithic, or Chalcolithic? Have you run the STRS in Boattini for this clade? Does that provide a clue? That's Grosseto, but that's also an area with Etruscan ruins.

    As for "Jewish" y in Puglia, fine with me if it's there, but what samples are you using to draw that conclusion? I linked to the Italy project at FTDNA, looked up every town with which I wasn't familiar, and only found two for Puglia under "E": one E-M35 and one E-L117.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    Hello,

    I was confirmed by FTDNA as E-M123* which is negative for M34 or any other branches. It's a rare haplogroup found in North-Western Iberia, The Middle East and even one case in my country Bulgaria, everywhere in just 1% or less. I want to ask about its presence in Europe - is it possible that E-M123* came to the Balkans with the Neolithic farmers from the Middle East? Or its presence there its due to late migrations like Roman colonists? Is it possible to be determined? My male ancestors are Vlachs who are said to be a mixture of Thracians and Roman colonists - so E-M123* could either be from Romans or Thracians. That's why I'm kinda confused with correlating my haplogroup with historical events. Any ideas? I know that with no branchings I can't compare myself with other E-M123 people so that's why I'm asking if someone knows something more than I do.

    Also the distribution map of M123 from Geno 2.0 is different than the one in Eupedia - http://imgur.com/F1EYKue

    It looks logical, according to the map, that M123 entered the Balkans from Anatolia and the highlighted area is more or less in the boundaries of Ancient Thrace.
    I also have a rare M34- ancestor. In my case the family line surfaces in England ca 1300. My limited research indicates this Haplo was dominant around Lebanon, and It appears that in my case it was brought into England via the Roman Legions ca 100-400CE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3b?iframe=ymap

    E-Y2947 is found in Bari, Y6923 does not exist in any population besides Ashkenazi Jews. Y6923 was never brought up.
    Is that the one sample from Molfetta labeled E-L117? I already listed that. Is your theory of the presence of Jewish "E" in Puglia based on that one sample?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    Kingjohn my dear friend, thanks for the support. The E-PH3893 found in La Spezia is probably very old, do we know that checked for M34? There are also 2 E-PF6759 found in Sardegna which are on Yfull, this too is under E-M34, if they did actually test for E-M34 and it turns out they are negative it only leaves Valerius’ subclade left.
    the ones in volterra are negetive that why i am so damn excited and happy for valerius

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by OkTex View Post
    I also have a rare M34- ancestor. In my case the family line surfaces in England ca 1300. My limited research indicates this Haplo was dominant around Lebanon, and It appears that in my case it was brought into England via the Roman Legions ca 100-400CE.
    Interesting - does this person uploaded his data to haplozone or Yfull ? I'm aware of 3 people xM34 from England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'd like to understand your reasoning Kingjohn. What do you see in the Volterra results that couldn't be Neolithic, or Chalcolithic? Have you run the STRS in Boattini for this clade? Does that provide a clue? That's Grosseto, but that's also an area with Etruscan ruins.

    As for "Jewish" y in Puglia, fine with me if it's there, but what samples are you using to draw that conclusion? I linked to the Italy project at FTDNA, looked up every town with which I wasn't familiar, and only found two for Puglia under "E": one E-M35 and one E-L117.
    dear angela ,
    i do think that m123*
    could be chl or bronze age presence in this area of italy
    anyway much before jews , and pheonician set foot in italy
    they could brought e-m34 to italy .....
    about the latest research the sample from salento south apuglia are 5.9% e-m34
    i am not talking about the greek salento sample whre e-m34 is only 1-2%

    kind regards
    Adam

    p.s
    i wish people here would not fight you are all italians you should stick togather

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Is that the one sample from Molfetta labeled E-L117? I already listed that. Is your theory of the presence of Jewish "E" in Puglia based on that one sample?
    Angela, the map I sent is from the E-M35 project, E-Y2947 is not Jewish and its in Bari not Molfetta. Secondly E-M123 branches aren’t the only Jewish branches, E-V12 also has a Jewish lines, and guess what E-V12 is found in Cisterino Brindisi, which Brindisi had a long a Jewish presence, dating back to Titus bringing 5000 Jews to the area.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I agree with Kingjohn, Congrats Valerius

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    dear angela ,
    i do think that m123*
    could be chl or bronze age presence in this area of italy
    anyway much before jews , and pheonician set foot in italy
    they could brought e-m34 to italy .....
    about the latest research the sample from salento south apuglia are 5.9% e-m34
    i am not talking about the greek salento sample whre e-m34 is only 1-2%

    kind regards
    Adam

    p.s
    i wish people here would not fight you are all italians you should stick togather
    As to Volterra, I thought the question you were raising was whether the E-M123* in Volterra could be connected to Etruscans, and my question was why, even if there was a big migration from the Aegean or western Anatolia, it couldn't be Neolithic as per the quote from Maciamo I posted above.

    As to Puglia, OK, you're not talking about Grecia Salentina, where it's 1.2%. You're talking about Apulia as a whole having E-M34 at 5.9%. Fair enough. Perhaps some of that is "Jewish". I don't know.

    Again, I'd point to Maciamo's work on E-M34.
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    It certainly doesn't seem as if he believes all E-M34 is Jewish, certainly not if it's being spread by Greeks etc. Wouldn't you need more detailed sub-clade information even than that to come to that conclusion?

    Is there something else that leads you to believe it is all "Jewish", other than that they are E-M34, and that there used to be Jews there, if that is indeed how you see it?

    It would be good to know exactly the areas where the samples are located, as Lucera (up by Foggia) was re-settled with some Saracens from Sicily.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim...ment_of_Lucera

    As for your final question, this isn't the place to discuss it at length. Let me just say that I don't pick my friends or the opinions with which I agree based on whether a person is Italian, or indeed on anything having to do with ethnicity. In terms of friendship, it is based on character, personality and to some extent on common interests. In terms of opinions, I judge them based on the clarity, specificity, proof presented, logic, etc. that I see exhibited. I distrust anything that seems motivated by emotion or personal agendas of any kind. I also judge them based on the civility with which they're expressed, although I probably shouldn't.

    For the record, Molfetta is probably usually listed as Bari.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    Angela, the map I sent is from the E-M35 project, E-Y2947 is not Jewish and its in Bari not Molfetta. Secondly E-M123 branches aren’t the only Jewish branches, E-V12 also has a Jewish lines, and guess what E-V12 is found in Cisterino Brindisi, which Brindisi had a long a Jewish presence, dating back to Titus bringing 5000 Jews to the area.
    Azzurro, Molfetta is part of Bari. Look it up.

    Yes, there are Jewish lines in a lot of E, and J1, and J2, and other groups. In this case, we're talking about "E". The point is, however, that there is no sub-clade resolution to the level of the "Jewish" sub-sub-clades if you want to call it that.

    If you see a clade in an area which might have a "Jewish" sub-clade under it, and if there is any Jewish settlement there ever recorded, then you jump to the conclusion that it is probably ALL in that JEWISH clade.

    That's because, in my opinion, you want to believe that, or you just said it once and now have to stick to it.

    All you would have to say is that some of it could be remnants of Jewish inhabitants from period X, but that we'd need to have further sub-clade resolution for it to be perfectly correct and unimpeachable.

    It's this emotional dogmatism that is the problem.

    The same is true for the little R1a in Puglia. There's no proof it is specifically SLAVIC from after the Slavic migrations into the Balkans, although it's certainly possible. Possible is not good enough for you. Even absent specific proof, IT HAS TO BE a certain way.

    Or, look at clades that can be found in the Near East and in Southern Italy. If it's in Italy it HAS TO BE slaves during the Roman era, or Byzantines only from the Middle East, or Saracens. It can never just possibly be those things, but also possibly from much earlier.

    That's why I find so many of your posts problematic.

    You make rational, civil discussion of these things impossible.

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