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Thread: E-m123*

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Azzurro, Molfetta is part of Bari. Look it up.

    Yes, there are Jewish lines in a lot of E, and J1, and J2, and other groups. In this case, we're talking about "E". The point is, however, that there is no sub-clade resolution to the level of the "Jewish" sub-sub-clades if you want to call it that.

    If you see a clade in an area which might have a "Jewish" sub-clade under it, and if there is any Jewish settlement there ever recorded, then you jump to the conclusion that it is probably ALL in that JEWISH clade.

    That's because, in my opinion, you want to believe that, or you just said it once and now have to stick to it.

    All you would have to say is that some of it could be remnants of Jewish inhabitants from period X, but that we'd need to have further sub-clade resolution for it to be perfectly correct and unimpeachable.

    It's this emotional dogmatism that is the problem.

    The same is true for the little R1a in Puglia. There's no proof it is specifically SLAVIC from after the Slavic migrations into the Balkans, although it's certainly possible. Possible is not good enough for you. Even absent specific proof, IT HAS TO BE a certain way.

    Or, look at clades that can be found in the Near East and in Southern Italy. If it's in Italy it HAS TO BE slaves during the Roman era, or Byzantines only from the Middle East, or Saracens. It can never just possibly be those things, but also possibly from much earlier.

    That's why I find so many of your posts problematic.

    You make rational, civil discussion of these things impossible.
    Angela, yes I saw Molfetta is under the Metropolitan area of Bari.

    The problem is no Italian will get those Ashkenazi Jewish subclades simply because of history and bottleneck. Italian Jewish Y lines would belong to older branches.

    Look trust me there’s nothing more I would like for civil discussions, I hate this fighting, it really aggravates me and isn’t fun.

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    ^^Then stop stating as dogmatic and incontrovertible FACT things for which you have no proof and perhaps for which no proof will ever be available. It sets people's backs up, because they know in most cases it's far more complicated than you make out.

    As an aside, some Southern Italian Jews might have wound up in Ashkenazi areas after fleeing or being expelled from Southern Italy after the Spanish took over. (Most of them, however, seem to have gone to Ottoman areas or North Africa.) Ashkenazi Jews would not have been moving to Southern Italy, generally speaking. I don't know why the the Sephardi Jews and the Ashkenazi Jews might not have shared certain sub-clades.

    It's too bad there isn't more detailed sub-clade data posted on the y from strictly Sephardic Jews. The same kind of data from Roman Jews or Italkim Jews would be helpful as well. There are also very well known Italian Jewish families who claim to have been in Italy for hundreds of years. Many of those in Piemonte, in particular, were in Italy since the expulsions from Iberia. It would be nice to know if they have tested to deep sub-clade resolution.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    the most important thing
    people be happy for valerius for those volterra m123* without the e-m34 mutation
    :)

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Azzurro, you may think me asking you questions about some of your statements is construed as fighting. It is not; we are engaging in debate, and not everyone is going to agree with some of the things you have said. Moving forward, you should anticipate from time to time, that forum users are going to ask questions. Especially if you make them appear like absolute statements. There is nothing wrong with people disagreeing, as long as we are civil. Please be conscious that making assumptions on incomplete data, that has not been resolved by the experts is not reliable. Thus you should probably defer to academic articles, rather than speculation based on data from private companies. There are a lot of variables to be considered, and we do not want to mislead people. Furthermore, it is important to substantiate claims with links to reputable sources so we may access the data ourselves. I have to say, that I took exception to the comment you made about me not being able to "School" you on Jewish history. I'm not trying to "school" you but rather bringing up salient points in my question to your statement. Everyone on the forum must be objective as possible, and present all of the verified academic data available, so we can further our knowledge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    Hello,

    I was confirmed by FTDNA as E-M123* which is negative for M34 or any other branches. It's a rare haplogroup found in North-Western Iberia, The Middle East and even one case in my country Bulgaria, everywhere in just 1% or less.
    Well hello, cousin, I'm also E-M123*, family from Northern Portugal, which seems to be the place it's less rare :)

  6. #56
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    But was found in 2 indo -aryans from swat valley north pakistan they are E-m123* just like the saka dude from north east kazachstan ,
    It look like m123* without the m-34 mutation is indo-aryan or indo-iranian clade aka aryan
    Amazing😉😎

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    But was found in 2 indo -aryans from swat valley north pakistan they are E-m123* just like the saka dude from north east kazachstan ,
    It look like m123* without the m-34 mutation is indo-aryan or indo-iranian clade aka aryan
    Amazing������������
    Why couldn't it already have been there and was just absorbed? I think the same thing happened with E-V13 in the Balkans, and maybe J2b2. I hope we get more ancient samples from that area and perhaps the Carpathians before the arrival of the steppe people.

  8. #58
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    yes it could be native clade(who absorbed the indo-aryan language) to area even though today e1b1b1 generally speaking is rare in pakistan and india.
    Regards
    Adam

    P.s
    Anyway it is cool thats why i like ancient dna there are always surprises.... 🤗
    Clade who are rare today could have been much more frequent back than...
    For example :in armenia bronze age they found 2 e1b1b1c1a individuals today this clade in armenia is only 4-5%.... 😉

  9. #59
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Kingjohn, all those Swat Valley individuals are E-Y31991 and PF4428, same clade as you say as the Saka outlier (who is also positive for Y134097 and Y168265, likely making him E-Y168273). It was a family grave site, and considering the people buried there were done so with care, and gifts - including gold - they might have been relatively high status in their local area. Looking at the present distribution of E-Y31991 individuals, it seems likely the haplogroup crossed into Europe from the Levant sometime by the neolithic (you can see European and Levantine branches, although the samples are heavily biased in favour of people with European ancestry as is usual in DNA testing) before being absorbed by IE-speaking peoples who moved into Central Asia and became Indo-Iranian/Aryan speaking, at the moment this seems the most parsimonous explanation.

    However, considering we're talking about the ancient Gandhara kingdom, I'm a bit skeptical they were Indo-Aryan speakers. For the time being I'm betting on Indo-Iranian, which would make sense considering the Scythian connection and its location in the far NW corner of the subcontinent
    Last edited by Ruderico; 11-09-19 at 17:16.

  10. #60
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ruderico so all of them truly amazing👍
    Did someone run the bam file ?
    I have aquestion I1992 individual from the paper is realy Belong to E1a haplogroup acording to the bam file ?
    Best regards
    Adam

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes, I asked two different people to run the BAM files on all yDNA E samples from Swat, and both came up with the same results, all positive for Y31991. It appears two of them (I3262 and I1799) are also positive for PF4428. Since they are all related to each other (it's a family grave, in a clearly patriarchal and patrilocal setting) we can conclude all individuals are PF4428, or at the very least Y31991. I1992 is also related to the other men, so odds are the "E1a" is actually a "E1b" and also Y31991. Probably just an error in the S1 Table, that would be my guess. The other yDNA E individuals on the same table, who are not from the Swat Valley, are not E-Y31991 (for example that in LBA Armenia).

    It's quite unfortunate that, eventhough the table has samples from Damgaard's study on Central Asia, they left out the two Central Saka outliers (unlike the other Sakas the outliers have very little "east Asian" ancestry, and present a very western-Steppe profile), one of which is the one you refered to before, DA19. I messaged Narasimhan about the Saka connection and he aknowledged it, but considering it is/was such a rare haplogroup I doubt we'll see it very often in the future, but who knows..I wasn't expecting to ever find my haplogroup and lo and behold there's a whole clan of them in Swat

    PS: there's other clades under Y31991 which are not PF4428, those also seem to have Levantine and European connections, again suggesting an old migration from the Middle East to Europe, probably associated with early farming, or perhaps copper working. Naturally this is a bit speculatory, but not non-sensical, I hope.
    Last edited by Ruderico; 12-09-19 at 12:09.

  12. #62
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    i am always happy when we found e-m123*
    and even more of it in ancient dna

    there is also this dude from the paper he could be e-m123* or e-m35* ?
    he passed all the filters in the lab they say in the paper

    I2085 .. E1b1b1 Gonur1_BA 2011-1886 calBCE (3580±20 BP, PSUAMS-2313) Turkmenistan

    BMAC culture is also indo-iranian culture

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    That one I don't know as I have no idea how to check for SNPs on the BAM files myself. If I get any info on him I'll report back

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    That one I don't know as I have no idea how to check for SNPs on the BAM files myself. If I get any info on him I'll report back
    thanks
    hope there will be answere about him
    p.s
    here for the DA19 dude :)
    Attachment 11394

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    1.7% out of large sample of 178 people in tenerife were found as e3b3* without m34 mutation
    thats 3/178

    table2 : page 143

    source:

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/99c...255.1570381173

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