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Thread: E-m123*

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Azzurro, Molfetta is part of Bari. Look it up.

    Yes, there are Jewish lines in a lot of E, and J1, and J2, and other groups. In this case, we're talking about "E". The point is, however, that there is no sub-clade resolution to the level of the "Jewish" sub-sub-clades if you want to call it that.

    If you see a clade in an area which might have a "Jewish" sub-clade under it, and if there is any Jewish settlement there ever recorded, then you jump to the conclusion that it is probably ALL in that JEWISH clade.

    That's because, in my opinion, you want to believe that, or you just said it once and now have to stick to it.

    All you would have to say is that some of it could be remnants of Jewish inhabitants from period X, but that we'd need to have further sub-clade resolution for it to be perfectly correct and unimpeachable.

    It's this emotional dogmatism that is the problem.

    The same is true for the little R1a in Puglia. There's no proof it is specifically SLAVIC from after the Slavic migrations into the Balkans, although it's certainly possible. Possible is not good enough for you. Even absent specific proof, IT HAS TO BE a certain way.

    Or, look at clades that can be found in the Near East and in Southern Italy. If it's in Italy it HAS TO BE slaves during the Roman era, or Byzantines only from the Middle East, or Saracens. It can never just possibly be those things, but also possibly from much earlier.

    That's why I find so many of your posts problematic.

    You make rational, civil discussion of these things impossible.
    Angela, yes I saw Molfetta is under the Metropolitan area of Bari.

    The problem is no Italian will get those Ashkenazi Jewish subclades simply because of history and bottleneck. Italian Jewish Y lines would belong to older branches.

    Look trust me there’s nothing more I would like for civil discussions, I hate this fighting, it really aggravates me and isn’t fun.

  2. #52
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    ^^Then stop stating as dogmatic and incontrovertible FACT things for which you have no proof and perhaps for which no proof will ever be available. It sets people's backs up, because they know in most cases it's far more complicated than you make out.

    As an aside, some Southern Italian Jews might have wound up in Ashkenazi areas after fleeing or being expelled from Southern Italy after the Spanish took over. (Most of them, however, seem to have gone to Ottoman areas or North Africa.) Ashkenazi Jews would not have been moving to Southern Italy, generally speaking. I don't know why the the Sephardi Jews and the Ashkenazi Jews might not have shared certain sub-clades.

    It's too bad there isn't more detailed sub-clade data posted on the y from strictly Sephardic Jews. The same kind of data from Roman Jews or Italkim Jews would be helpful as well. There are also very well known Italian Jewish families who claim to have been in Italy for hundreds of years. Many of those in Piemonte, in particular, were in Italy since the expulsions from Iberia. It would be nice to know if they have tested to deep sub-clade resolution.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  3. #53
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    the most important thing
    people be happy for valerius for those volterra m123* without the e-m34 mutation
    :)

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Azzurro, you may think me asking you questions about some of your statements is construed as fighting. It is not; we are engaging in debate, and not everyone is going to agree with some of the things you have said. Moving forward, you should anticipate from time to time, that forum users are going to ask questions. Especially if you make them appear like absolute statements. There is nothing wrong with people disagreeing, as long as we are civil. Please be conscious that making assumptions on incomplete data, that has not been resolved by the experts is not reliable. Thus you should probably defer to academic articles, rather than speculation based on data from private companies. There are a lot of variables to be considered, and we do not want to mislead people. Furthermore, it is important to substantiate claims with links to reputable sources so we may access the data ourselves. I have to say, that I took exception to the comment you made about me not being able to "School" you on Jewish history. I'm not trying to "school" you but rather bringing up salient points in my question to your statement. Everyone on the forum must be objective as possible, and present all of the verified academic data available, so we can further our knowledge.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    Hello,

    I was confirmed by FTDNA as E-M123* which is negative for M34 or any other branches. It's a rare haplogroup found in North-Western Iberia, The Middle East and even one case in my country Bulgaria, everywhere in just 1% or less.
    Well hello, cousin, I'm also E-M123*, family from Northern Portugal, which seems to be the place it's less rare :)

  6. #56
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    But was found in 2 indo -aryans from swat valley north pakistan they are E-m123* just like the saka dude from north east kazachstan ,
    It look like m123* without the m-34 mutation is indo-aryan or indo-iranian clade aka aryan
    Amazing😉😎

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    But was found in 2 indo -aryans from swat valley north pakistan they are E-m123* just like the saka dude from north east kazachstan ,
    It look like m123* without the m-34 mutation is indo-aryan or indo-iranian clade aka aryan
    Amazing������������
    Why couldn't it already have been there and was just absorbed? I think the same thing happened with E-V13 in the Balkans, and maybe J2b2. I hope we get more ancient samples from that area and perhaps the Carpathians before the arrival of the steppe people.

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    yes it could be native clade(who absorbed the indo-aryan language) to area even though today e1b1b1 generally speaking is rare in pakistan and india.
    Regards
    Adam

    P.s
    Anyway it is cool thats why i like ancient dna there are always surprises.... 🤗
    Clade who are rare today could have been much more frequent back than...
    For example :in armenia bronze age they found 2 e1b1b1c1a individuals today this clade in armenia is only 4-5%.... 😉

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Kingjohn, all those Swat Valley individuals are E-Y31991 and PF4428, same clade as you say as the Saka outlier (who is also positive for Y134097 and Y168265, likely making him E-Y168273). It was a family grave site, and considering the people buried there were done so with care, and gifts - including gold - they might have been relatively high status in their local area. Looking at the present distribution of E-Y31991 individuals, it seems likely the haplogroup crossed into Europe from the Levant sometime by the neolithic (you can see European and Levantine branches, although the samples are heavily biased in favour of people with European ancestry as is usual in DNA testing) before being absorbed by IE-speaking peoples who moved into Central Asia and became Indo-Iranian/Aryan speaking, at the moment this seems the most parsimonous explanation.

    However, considering we're talking about the ancient Gandhara kingdom, I'm a bit skeptical they were Indo-Aryan speakers. For the time being I'm betting on Indo-Iranian, which would make sense considering the Scythian connection and its location in the far NW corner of the subcontinent
    Last edited by Ruderico; 11-09-19 at 16:16.

  10. #60
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ruderico so all of them truly amazing👍
    Did someone run the bam file ?
    I have aquestion I1992 individual from the paper is realy Belong to E1a haplogroup acording to the bam file ?
    Best regards
    Adam

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes, I asked two different people to run the BAM files on all yDNA E samples from Swat, and both came up with the same results, all positive for Y31991. It appears two of them (I3262 and I1799) are also positive for PF4428. Since they are all related to each other (it's a family grave, in a clearly patriarchal and patrilocal setting) we can conclude all individuals are PF4428, or at the very least Y31991. I1992 is also related to the other men, so odds are the "E1a" is actually a "E1b" and also Y31991. Probably just an error in the S1 Table, that would be my guess. The other yDNA E individuals on the same table, who are not from the Swat Valley, are not E-Y31991 (for example that in LBA Armenia).

    It's quite unfortunate that, eventhough the table has samples from Damgaard's study on Central Asia, they left out the two Central Saka outliers (unlike the other Sakas the outliers have very little "east Asian" ancestry, and present a very western-Steppe profile), one of which is the one you refered to before, DA19. I messaged Narasimhan about the Saka connection and he aknowledged it, but considering it is/was such a rare haplogroup I doubt we'll see it very often in the future, but who knows..I wasn't expecting to ever find my haplogroup and lo and behold there's a whole clan of them in Swat

    PS: there's other clades under Y31991 which are not PF4428, those also seem to have Levantine and European connections, again suggesting an old migration from the Middle East to Europe, probably associated with early farming, or perhaps copper working. Naturally this is a bit speculatory, but not non-sensical, I hope.
    Last edited by Ruderico; 12-09-19 at 11:09.

  12. #62
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    i am always happy when we found e-m123*
    and even more of it in ancient dna

    there is also this dude from the paper he could be e-m123* or e-m35* ?
    he passed all the filters in the lab they say in the paper

    I2085 .. E1b1b1 Gonur1_BA 2011-1886 calBCE (3580±20 BP, PSUAMS-2313) Turkmenistan

    BMAC culture is also indo-iranian culture

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    That one I don't know as I have no idea how to check for SNPs on the BAM files myself. If I get any info on him I'll report back

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    That one I don't know as I have no idea how to check for SNPs on the BAM files myself. If I get any info on him I'll report back
    thanks
    hope there will be answere about him
    p.s
    here for the DA19 dude :)
    Attachment 11394

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    1.7% out of large sample of 178 people in tenerife were found as e3b3* without m34 mutation
    thats 3/178

    table2 : page 143

    source:

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/99c...255.1570381173

  16. #66
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    it looks like the E-m123 in madeira
    Are actuality mostly e-m123* without m34 mutation 🤔
    Historicly most of the portuguase settlers were from minho
    North portugal
    Here this paper: 😉 ( it checked for snp m34)

    https://www.isfg.org/files/255d8b38d...6571967103.pdf

  17. #67
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    members by countries ( by rodrigue e3b haplozone)
    https://i.imgur.com/7PDYoPZ.png


    presumed route of e-m123* without m34 snp to europe ( by farroukh e3b haplozone )
    Attachment 12134
    https://i.imgur.com/Wy0lZAb.jpg
    Last edited by kingjohn; 31-05-20 at 17:19.

  18. #68
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This might be interesting for the Italians here:

    https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/ij...0-05763-v2.pdf

    In this Sardinian study 5 men were found to be E-M123* in Sardinia.

    Regarding mainland Italy, we have:

    - 1 Udine
    - 1 Offida
    - 2 Volterra
    - 1 Apulia
    - 1 Grecìa Salentina

    All of them are from scientific papers, while I haven't seen any commercial results so far in the Italy's project. Interesting hot-spot turns out to be Italy.

    Thanks @KingJohn for sending me these cases.

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    According to Y-Full E-M123 was formed 18800 ybp, TMRCA 17700. If I'm reading it correctly, in other words, in Mesolithic times, even before the Neolithic.

    "E-M123Y5780/FGC18285 * CTS1663 * Z1149+20 SNPs formed 18800 ybp, TMRCA 17700 yb"


    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    This might be interesting for the Italians here:

    https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/ij...0-05763-v2.pdf
    It is necessary to underline that this paper has many errors. Some of them are striking. There is no academic sample from Pisa, it is the usual old sample from Volterra composed of 86 individuals analyzed in two different ways, one by Grugni and labeled Volterra and the other one by Di Cristofaro and labeled Pisa because Volterra is in the province of Pisa. In the first Y-DNA is analyzed more deeply and so you have many R1b-U152 , in the second Y-DNA is analyzed much less deeply and so you have many R1b-L23. Quackery at the highest level. Just as Siena is none other than Murlo and Arezzo is none other than the usual sample from Casentino.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    This might be interesting for the Italians here:
    https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/ij...0-05763-v2.pdf
    In this Sardinian study 5 men were found to be E-M123* in Sardinia.
    Regarding mainland Italy, we have:
    - 1 Udine
    - 1 Offida
    - 2 Volterra
    - 1 Apulia
    - 1 Grecìa Salentina
    All of them are from scientific papers, while I haven't seen any commercial results so far in the Italy's project. Interesting hot-spot turns out to be Italy.
    Thanks @KingJohn for sending me these cases.
    You welcome valerius
    The sardinian surnames paper
    https://i.imgur.com/go1u5AU.png
    is indid cool


    If i will find more cases of e-m123* (tested negetive for m34 marker)
    In other dna papers i will let you know
    Regards
    Adam
    Last edited by kingjohn; 24-09-20 at 14:33.

  21. #71
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    According to Y-Full E-M123 was formed 18800 ybp, TMRCA 17700. If I'm reading it correctly, in other words, in Mesolithic times, even before the Neolithic.

    "E-M123Y5780/FGC18285 * CTS1663 * Z1149+20 SNPs formed 18800 ybp, TMRCA 17700 yb"
    The determined age of the surving E-m123* sub-branches is between 8300 BC to 4700 BC:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

    This is exactly the Neolithic time-frame.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    The determined age of the surving E-m123* sub-branches is between 8300 BC to 4700 BC:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

    This is exactly the Neolithic time-frame.

    Certainly, in the case of the sub-branch is Neolithic, although 8300 BC to 4700 BC is a really wide span of time.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    The determined age of the surving E-m123* sub-branches is between 8300 BC to 4700 BC:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

    This is exactly the Neolithic time-frame.

    valerius
    why can't no one upload
    the saka e-m123* from north east kazachstan to yfull
    or one of the north pakistan indo-aryans e-m123* samples to yfull ?
    kind regards
    adam

  24. #74
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Pax Augusta - actually, as much as wide the time range is, it is very informative because it marks the beginning and the end of the Neolithic period, and that is enough to have a theoretical time frame for when these branches reached Europe from the Middle East. This is how it looks for me. The question here is completely anthropological in a sense, it is not connected to any recent ancestry or historical events.


    @King John - I did upload the E-Y31991 Scythian on Yfull 18 months ago and they still claim that there is a large queue of ancient samples that are waiting to be uploaded, however, i believe they are not honest as today they posted an ancient sample from the Viking paper that was recently made public. I guess they group the samples by interest or i have no idea how some samples are jumping over the queue...
    Regarding those Udegram samples from Pakistan, I do not have access to them and I heard that in fact they are not 31991 but pre-31991, which would plot outside of e-m123*

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    @Pax Augusta - actually, as much as wide the time range is, it is very informative because it marks the beginning and the end of the Neolithic period, and that is enough to have a theoretical time frame for when these branches reached Europe from the Middle East. This is how it looks for me. The question here is completely anthropological in a sense, it is not connected to any recent ancestry or historical events.


    @King John - I did upload the E-Y31991 Scythian on Yfull 18 months ago and they still claim that there is a large queue of ancient samples that are waiting to be uploaded, however, i believe they are not honest as today they posted an ancient sample from the Viking paper that was recently made public. I guess they group the samples by interest or i have no idea how some samples are jumping over the queue...
    Regarding those Udegram samples from Pakistan, I do not have access to them and I heard that in fact they are not 31991 but pre-31991, which would plot outside of e-m123*

    maybe you need to ask them again .....
    although it is possible they have prefernce for some samples over others .....
    hope they will upload the saka dude that would be cool
    about the udegram samples from pakistan it can still help very much for the E-PF1962 tree

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