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Thread: E-m123*

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-M123*/E-Y31991
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV (T16311C!)

    Country: Bulgaria



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    E-m123*

    Hello,

    I was confirmed by FTDNA as E-M123* which is negative for M34 or any other branches. It's a rare haplogroup found in North-Western Iberia, The Middle East and even one case in my country Bulgaria, everywhere in just 1% or less. I want to ask about its presence in Europe - is it possible that E-M123* came to the Balkans with the Neolithic farmers from the Middle East? Or its presence there its due to late migrations like Roman colonists? Is it possible to be determined? My male ancestors are Vlachs who are said to be a mixture of Thracians and Roman colonists - so E-M123* could either be from Romans or Thracians. That's why I'm kinda confused with correlating my haplogroup with historical events. Any ideas? I know that with no branchings I can't compare myself with other E-M123 people so that's why I'm asking if someone knows something more than I do.

    Also the distribution map of M123 from Geno 2.0 is different than the one in Eupedia - http://imgur.com/F1EYKue

    It looks logical, according to the map, that M123 entered the Balkans from Anatolia and the highlighted area is more or less in the boundaries of Ancient Thrace.
    Last edited by Valerius; 21-12-16 at 01:37.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152-Z56-BY3957
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c7a

    Ethnic group
    15/32 British, 5/32 German, 9/64 Irish, 1/8 Scots Gaelic, 5/64 French, 1/32 Welsh
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This is a rare Haplogroup indeed. The fact that E-M123* does not even have a name tells me that this Haplogroup hasn't even been studied yet. But no worries, E-M123 may be really rare but that lineage is only your direct ancestor's lineage; fathers, father's, father's......... side of the family. I suppose we can start with Ftdna, I noticed that yes there are some people scattered around the Mediterranean whom are also E-M123*, are these guys on Ftdna? The E-M123 page moderators I would imagine would know the answer. I'm wondering if your E-M123* cousins Ydna can be tested by the Molecular Clock. The Molecular Clock can determine when you two shared a common direct ancestor.

    Thracians and Neolithic European Ancestries are both very plausible hypothesis at this point, however ultimately what all of the E-M123* individuals have in common is that predomately all of them have direct origins that were historically apart of Rome. Witch leads to a hypothasis that I'm adding as a scenario; since the Ydna is spread out so super thin. If every E-M123* individuals have the same common ancestor that lived 2,000 ybp 200+or-, could the common ancestor be in the Roman military; Auxillary or Legionnaire?

    At this point these are only educated guesses since the Ydna EM123* hasn't been studied yet. Unfortunately we need more samples in order to get a better idea. But a Molecular clock is a start to finding at least some answers. ^_^ good luck



    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_clock




    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapl...ugaCabrera2005



    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...DNA.shtml#M123
    Last edited by Twilight; 18-12-16 at 03:17.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-M123*/E-Y31991
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV (T16311C!)

    Country: Bulgaria



    Thank you for the information.

    Yes, there are some other M123* people that I've met online - my type of M123* is called E-PF4428 - I've found 1 guy from Northern Portugal where this haplogroup seems to peak and one guy whose male ancestors were from Central Germany. In Haplozone-dot-net this Portugese person is not even detected as a match. I have been told that our E-PF4428 branch is so old that all of us are on a great distance from each other - thousand of years. AFAIK, the only way do determine the time to the most recent common ancestor goes with Big-Y but that's something for the future, at best. Is that Molecular clock part of the Big-Y or is different kind of DNA test, I didn't understood?

    In FTDNA I don't have any matches or anything useful. Guess must wait for new info on the matter. Geno 2.0 says: "This branch is not accompanied by a major movement on the map, and research on this branch is continuing."

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152-Z56-BY3957
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c7a

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    Thank you for the information.

    Yes, there are some other M123* people that I've met online - my type of M123* is called E-PF4428 - I've found 1 guy from Northern Portugal where this haplogroup seems to peak and one guy whose male ancestors were from Central Germany. In Haplozone-dot-net this Portugese person is not even detected as a match. I have been told that our E-PF4428 branch is so old that all of us are on a great distance from each other - thousand of years. AFAIK, the only way do determine the time to the most recent common ancestor goes with Big-Y but that's something for the future, at best. Is that Molecular clock part of the Big-Y or is different kind of DNA test, I didn't understood?

    In FTDNA I don't have any matches or anything useful. Guess must wait for new info on the matter. Geno 2.0 says: "This branch is not accompanied by a major movement on the map, and research on this branch is continuing."
    You're welcome, let's see what the big Y says. I'd do some research on your direct male ancestors and go back as far as you can on the paper trail; and rule out the mailmen while applicable. And by the time you have your Big Y results in the future, you should be closer to where your Ydna came from specifically. :)

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-M123*/E-Y31991
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV (T16311C!)

    Country: Bulgaria



    Thank you, will do it at some point : )

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    dear valerius,
    cool haplogroup
    i derived from you
    e-m123* is found in north portugal and
    also there are few members from germany ....
    with kind regards
    adam

    p.s
    your haplogroup could be neolithic in europe {portugal}
    but i do think your valch ancestor was descendents from roman auxiliry.... :)

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-M123*/E-Y31991
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV (T16311C!)

    Country: Bulgaria



    Thank you Adam.
    So you think that my haplogroup was originally from Portugal? I see E-M123* is common in Northern Portugal and Galicia region in Spain. In Roman times that area was inhabited by Celtiberians - Celtic tribes like Galici, Celtici, Bracari - is it possible that my male ancestors were Celts before they were picked up by the Romans as sodiers? I found this info about the Celts from Galicia - "they would be enlisted massively as auxiliaries of the Roman legions, fulfilling destinies sometimes completely separate from Galicia, as far as Thrace and Dacia". Seems like pieces of a puzzle pointing to the Romans. But I'll have to wait some time for the TMRCA info. It can confirm these theories.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Cohors [prima] Bracaraugustanorum [quingenaria] equitata civium Romanorum ("[1st] part-mounted [500 strong] cohort of Roman citizens
    regiment containing cavalry contingents. The cohort stationed in dacia
    they were at this fort :
    Castra of Boroșneu Mare


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    Thank you again for your information - it led me to some interesting observations - it seems this cohort was part of the Legio XIII Gemina which was stationed in Dacia but in 271 AD was evacuated and re-stationed in Ratiaria (modern Archar, NW Bulgaria)... and that's just 20-30 km away from the home village of my ancestors. Don't know if these Bracari units were still there at that time but everything's possible.

    Can't wait to get some info on the time as Twilight also noted that if it's 2000 +/- years it will be a good proof for everything we are talking about here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    Thank you, will do it at some point : )
    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    Thank you again for your information - it led me to some interesting observations - it seems this cohort was part of the Legio XIII Gemina which was stationed in Dacia but in 271 AD was evacuated and re-stationed in Ratiaria (modern Archar, NW Bulgaria)... and that's just 20-30 km away from the home village of my ancestors. Don't know if these Bracari units were still there at that time but everything's possible.

    Can't wait to get some info on the time as Twilight also noted that if it's 2000 +/- years it will be a good proof for everything we are talking about here.
    You're most welcome. Wish you the best of luck and Happy Holidays :)

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-M123*/E-Y31991
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV (T16311C!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    You're most welcome. Wish you the best of luck and Happy Holidays :)
    Thank you very much, Happy Holidays to you too!

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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Btw, just to add this - I've imported that genome from Bronze Age Armenia (RISE423) that turned out to be E-M123* in DNA.LAND and the results are rather strange if they are true:

    African 71%
    West African 50%
    Lower Niger Valley 37%
    Mende/Akan 13%
    Southern African 22%
    West Eurasian 29%
    South/Central European 17%
    Kalash 11%

    I know that the YDNA is unrelated or very distantly related to autosomes but still it's very surprising if there was a population in Bronze age Anatolia with those kind of autosomal stats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    Btw, just to add this - I've imported that genome from Bronze Age Armenia (RISE423) that turned out to be E-M123* in DNA.LAND and the results are rather strange if they are true:

    African 71%
    West African 50%
    Lower Niger Valley 37%
    Mende/Akan 13%
    Southern African 22%
    West Eurasian 29%
    South/Central European 17%
    Kalash 11%

    I know that the YDNA is unrelated or very distantly related to autosomes but still it's very surprising if there was a population in Bronze age Anatolia with those kind of autosomal stats.
    Mislabelled sample probably. Every other analysis shows that sample looking like a North Caucasian.

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    I guess so, otherwise it would be very very strange.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yfull is done - https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

    Seems that me and the German person (from Poland) are now on our own European branch - formed 18100 ybp, TMRCA 10900 ybp - looks like a prehistoric migration, although nothing is for sure because of the insufficient data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    Yfull is done - https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

    Seems that me and the German person (from Poland) are now on our own European branch - formed 18100 ybp, TMRCA 10900 ybp - looks like a prehistoric migration, although nothing is for sure because of the insufficient data.

    what is your thought on the e-m123* 1.8% 2/113 in volterrea tuscanay
    this area was etruscan and before that related to villanova culture

    up untill now it was mainly found in north portugal

    source :
    http://tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10....01?scroll=top&


    Untitled.jpg

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    what is your thought on the e-m123* 1.8% 2/113 in volterrea tuscanay
    this area was etruscan and before that related to villanova culture

    up untill now it was mainly found in north portugal

    source :
    http://tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10....01?scroll=top&


    Untitled.jpg
    Thank you for this interesting information, never realized e-m123* was ever found in Italy. Sadly I can't access neither the image nor the document. Is e-m123* found among living population or in ancient samples? And is it confirmed to be e-m123* and not just e-m123 ? If it's present there then that would add more credibility to the theory that the Etruscans came from Anatolia/Near East back in the day. Also will fill the missing e-m123* from Italy, as before was present in the South only in the Balkans and Iberia. Also interesting about its presence in Germany, Austria, Hungary and England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    Thank you for this interesting information, never realized e-m123* was ever found in Italy. Sadly I can't access neither the image nor the document. Is e-m123* found among living population or in ancient samples? And is it confirmed to be e-m123* and not just e-m123 ? If it's present there then that would add more credibility to the theory that the Etruscans came from Anatolia/Near East back in the day. Also will fill the missing e-m123* from Italy, as before was present in the South only in the Balkans and Iberia. Also interesting about its presence in Germany, Austria, Hungary and England.
    It does not make any sense to look for the origins of an ancient people on the basis of less widespread and rarer haplogroups in modern-day populations. E-M123 was already found in Italy, and also in Sardinia. It is possible to find it anywhere in Italy but never exceeds 1-2%, except in Sardinia and very few other places. And E-M123* is also found in Bulgaria, Spain and Portugal.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    what is your thought on the e-m123* 1.8% 2/113 in volterrea tuscanay
    this area was etruscan and before that related to villanova culture

    up untill now it was mainly found in north portugal
    source : http://tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10....01?scroll=top&

    1.8% means that there are 2 out of 117 individuals in Volterra with this haplogroup. It's quite impossible to draw any conclusion, they are too few.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    It does not make any sense to look for the origins of an ancient people on the basis of less widespread and rarer haplogroups in modern-day populations. E-M123 was already found in Italy, and also in Sardinia. It is possible to find it anywhere in Italy but never exceeds 1-2%, except in Sardinia and very few other places. And E-M123* is also found in Bulgaria, Spain and Portugal.
    My idea was that it will add more pieces to the puzzle, not that it will solve the whole riddle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    what is your thought on the e-m123* 1.8% 2/113 in volterrea tuscanay
    this area was etruscan and before that related to villanova culture
    Kingjohn, I've checked the results from this study and there is no information about e-m123* - it's only e-m123 which is almost for sure E-m34, as it's the case in many parts of Italy as Pax Augusta mentioned. In that case it's just normal presence of e-m34 which is indeed pre-Etruscan as it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    Kingjohn, I've checked the results from this study and there is no information about e-m123* - it's only e-m123 which is almost for sure E-m34, as it's the case in many parts of Italy as Pax Augusta mentioned. In that case it's just normal presence of e-m34 which is indeed pre-Etruscan as it seems.
    check again table s6
    e-m123* was found in volterra
    e-m34 mainly in apuglia and tyrenean calabria
    e-m123* is ancient in europe probably neolithic in portugal
    e-m34 is levantine ,jewish arrived with jewish slaves of roman empire , or pheonician sailors
    and pax augusta it is 2/113 not 2/117 not taht it make such big difference ...


    table s6 again
    hope irt will work for you this time
    Attachment 9723

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    check again table s6
    e-m123* was found in volterra
    e-m34 mainly in apuglia and tyrenean calabria
    e-m123* is ancient in europe probably neolithic in portugal
    e-m34 is levantine ,jewish arrived with jewish slaves of roman empire , or pheonician sailors
    and pax augusta it is 2/113 not 2/117 not taht it make such big difference ...


    table s6 again
    hope irt will work for you this time
    Attachment 9723
    The E-M123 found in Volterra is probably related to the ones found in La Spezia under E-PH3893, which is under E-L791>Y4970 branch.

    https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y4970/

    As for in Puglia one on ftdna is positive under the E-Y2947 which another branch under E-L791.

    E-L791 seems to be somewhat frequent in Italy.

    As for other E-M123 in Puglia, its probably a mix of E-M84 lines and the above 2 mentioned. Definitely some can turn out to Jewish, Puglia had the second strongest Jewish presence after Sicily.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Maybe this is better?

    [IMG][/IMG]

    It's labeled E-123*

    There are some E-M123(?) in Grosseto from Boattini et al.: 2 samples. Strs are provided in Table 2.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0065441

    I quickly looked at Brisighelli, and they don't have anything from "Etruscan" areas, and nor does Sarno et al.

    You might want to look at specifically "Etruscan" areas in Tuscany if you're going to rely on private company testing.

    Sorry, 3 samples in Grosseto.


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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    The E-M123 found in Volterra is probably related to the ones found in La Spezia under E-PH3893, which is under E-L791>Y4970 branch.

    https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y4970/

    As for in Puglia one on ftdna is positive under the E-Y2947 which another branch under E-L791.

    E-L791 seems to be somewhat frequent in Italy.

    As for other E-M123 in Puglia, its probably a mix of E-M84 lines and the above 2 mentioned. Definitely some can turn out to Jewish, Puglia had the second strongest Jewish presence after Sicily.
    Many Jews from Puglia have been dispersed, I highly doubt they have the "second highest presence" in Italy as you have stated.

    By 1540, the last expulsion finally ended Jewish life in Apulia. Most remaining Crypto-Jews were driven so deep underground that their presence finally came to an end as well. Some of the Apulian Jewish refugees fled north. However, most of them settled in Greece or the Aegean islands. The Apulian Jews set up new congregations in Corfu, Arta and Salonika. Sadly, the last remants of the Apulian Jews were murdered during the Holocaust.[3] [4]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...Jews_in_Apulia

  25. #25
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    Azzurro's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Many Jews from Puglia have been dispersed, I highly doubt they have the "second highest presence" in Italy as you have stated.
    Historically they did, you should read up on it

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