Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Maps of Europe’s ancient tribes and Y-DNA. Legit?

  1. #1
    Hunter-Engineer Aha's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-16
    Location
    Kyiv
    Age
    33
    Posts
    73

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    N-FGC13372/Z16975

    Ethnic group
    Ukrainian
    Country: Ukraine



    1 members found this post helpful.

    Maps of Europe’s ancient tribes and Y-DNA. Legit?

    These are "Maps of Europe’s ancient tribes, kingdoms and Y-DNA" around 7000 BC, 2000 BC, 117 AD and 1227 AD by Sandra Rimmer from this page http://www.abroadintheyard.com/maps-...oms-and-y-dna/ Relief Artist: Kenneth Townsend
    How legit and accurate they are? Who is this Sandra Rimmer? The quality of the maps is impressive.


    The first map shows Europe around 7000 BC. The Ice Age had ended and Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers had migrated from their refuges to recolonize the continent, including Doggerland which later submerged beneath the rising North Sea. The majority of western European males belonged to Y-haplogroup I and northeast Europeans to haplogroup R1a. Other minor male lineages such as R1b, G, J, T and E would also have been present in Europe, having migrated from the Asian Steppe, the Middle East and North Africa.

    The second map shows Europe around 2000 BC. In the intervening period agriculture had developed in the Levant and then spread through southern, central and eastern Europe by Neolithic farmers belonging mainly to Y-haplogroups such as G2a, and J2. During the following Copper and Bronze Ages, Indo-European tribes (R1a and R1b) migrated westward from the Eurasian Steppe. Long-distance trading networks developed across Europe and the Atlantic Coast, which helped spread distinct cultures such as Corded Ware and Bell Beaker. In the far north, Haplogroup N1c tribes arrived in Europe from Siberia, their geographical spread aligning with the Pit–Comb Ware culture. In the Middle East and Anatolia advanced civilizations began to emerge. The civilization of Ancient Egypt rose to a peak and the pyramids would remain the tallest and largest human constructions for thousands of years. Even in western Europe megalith builders were constructing giant monuments of their own.

    The third map shows Europe around 117 AD, which saw the Roman Empire reach its greatest territorial extent. By this time, the descendants of the R1a and R1b Indo-European migrants had come to dominate most of Europe as Celtic, Germanic, and Slavic peoples. The majority of the males in Roman Italy itself would have been the descendants of R1b tribes invaders into the Italian peninsula who displaced its mainly haplogroup G2a inhabitants. Intermarriage with their Etruscan and Greek neighbours would have gradually brought other lineages, such as J2 and E-V13, into the Roman gene pool. Although there were many movements of people both within and outside the Roman Empire, as well as instances of genocide by the Romans on rebellious provincial tribes, the Empire does not appear to have left any big genetic signatures in Europe. Genetic continuity remained in its respective regions, suggesting that there were relatively few Roman Italian colonizers; rather the Empire’s true foundations were through culturally romanized local rulers.

    The fourth map shows Europe around 1227 AD, the year Genghis Khan died leaving his Mongol Empire’s westernmost reach beginning to encroach into Europe (characterised by the Great Khan’s own Y-DNA haplogroup C2). Medieval Europe itself was dominated by the Holy Roman Empire – a loose union of small kingdoms with Germany at its heart (and an attempt to resurrect the former glory of the Roman Empire in the west) – and the Byzantine Empire, the continuation of the Roman Empire in the east. After the fall of the western Roman Empire in the 5th century AD the migration and conquests of Germanic tribes, such as the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Normans, also left genetic signatures, particularly haplogroup I, in the British Isles and further afield.
    I would also love to find the original relief map for map making purposes.

    As for the maps themselves, I already see a few mistakes... Concerning my area of interest (Ukraine) - they misnamed Rus' into "Russia". Also there are pockets of M458 majority in Ukraine, although it could be that it wasn't the case in the past.
    I guess about half of the map is a speculation and a guess (even if a good one). What do you think?

  2. #2
    Elite member IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Age
    26
    Posts
    883

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    J1 couldnt have reached arabia in 7000 bc, thats one mistake among many I suspect, and he also seems to illustrate that I2a1 retreated to the dinaric mountains because of incoming R1b which is most likely false given the time for recent common ancestor of the I2a-Din group which is 2300 years.

    and he is also giving my group a place in the world (the last map in southern Armenia I2*) which is ridiculous, he doesnt appreciate the rarity of my ancestors who never transcended the 1% barrier anywhere. He should give that place to some R1b or J2 subclade.

  3. #3
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,731


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    it is an interesting theory to asign I1 to Swiderian which occupied eastern Europe prior to the arrival of the R1 tribes there
    but that is purely speculative and has yet to be confirmed, I hope it will soon happen

    J1, J2a and J2b are very old tribes, but they survived LGM in the same area, the eastern Epigravettian area
    therefore the territories of these 3 tribes were certainly intertwined

    the same goes for all I2 tribes which are 22000 years old, but have a common origin as the Villabruna clade in SE Europe or Anatolia only 14000 years ago

    probably, indeed some reindeer hunter descendants of the Magdalenian clade I* survived for a long time in northern Scandinavia, but are now extinct

    and I agree with Ironside, the dispersal of J1-P58 into Arabia started only some 5000 years ago

    as for the weblinks you provide, this is the reply I get : Access denied. Your IP address is blacklisted. If you feel this is in error please contact your hosting providers abuse department.

  4. #4
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    890

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-s10483>by96055
    MtDNA haplogroup
    from plovdiv h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    nice but
    why you forget e-z830 ?
    who was found in natufians
    it is very old in levant....

    Natufians

    I0861: E1b1b1b2(x E1b1b1b2a, E1b1b1b2b)
    I1069: E1b1(xE1b1a1, E1b1b1b1)
    I1072: E1b1b1b2(xE1b1b1b2a, E1b1b1b2b)
    I1685: CT
    I1690: CT

    Levant_N

    I0867: H2 (PPNB)
    I1414: E(xE2, E1a, E1b1a1a1c2c3b1, E1b1b1b1a1, E1b1b1b2b) (PPNB)
    I1415: E1b1b1 (PPNB)
    I1416: CT (PPNB)
    I1707: T(xT1a1, T1a2a) (PPNB)
    I1710: E1b1b1(x E1b1b1b1a1, E1b1b1a1b1, E1b1b1a1b2, E1b1b1b2a1c) (PPNB)
    I1727: CT(xE, G, J, LT, R, Q1a, Q1b) (PPNB)
    I1700: CT (PPNC)



    regards
    adam
    Last edited by kingjohn; 21-12-16 at 19:30.

  5. #5
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,296

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    In first map, the EN, we should have Anatolia full of G2a, not Caucasus, and definitely E1b in Natufian area.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  6. #6
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    1,004


    Country: Latvia



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it is an interesting theory to asign I1 to Swiderian which occupied eastern Europe prior to the arrival of the R1 tribes there
    but that is purely speculative and has yet to be confirmed, I hope it will soon happen
    I think East Baltic a-dna speculations and leaks was about I2 before CW not I1.

  7. #7
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,360


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Nice maps. I especially like the colours and how the lower ocean levels are displayed in the 7000 BCE map. However, they do not reflect the ancient DNA data, especially for Neolithic farmers. The author also attempts to simplify too much the Y-haplogroup landscape. Even in the first map, Mesolithic Europeans were not nicely separated into regional clusters of haplogroups; Instead, what we see is a melting pot of C1a2, F, IJ, I*, I2*, I2a*, I2a1, I2a1a, I2a1b, J*, R1a1*, R1b1*, and so on.

    N1c in 7000 BCE NE Europe is anachronistic if N1c tribes really descended from Neolithic North Chinese/Manchurian/Mongolian, as ancient DNA data suggests.

    I have thought too of making maps like the above that would clearly delineate imaginary boundaries between ancient haplogroups, but I thought better of it as it doesn't make sense and is highly misleading. What's more, the more ancient DNA we get, the more surprises (mostly rare or extinct haplogroups) show up.

    I am not going to list all the mistakes, but let's just say that the maps rely too much on the modern distribution. For example, the 2000 BCE map shows J1 all over the Arabian peninsula and E-M81 lording over the Maghreb. But the TMRCA for these haplogroups in those regions doesn't tell the same story. Both would have become dominant in their respective region much later.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    533


    Country: Greece



    They did the most basic thing correctly. They didn't provide sources. If you decide to make some maps too, always remember that.
    The other important thing is: if there aren't data you can make them up.

  9. #9
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,248


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Very appealing and graphically catching but very historically disputable and inaccurate.

  10. #10
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    These maps aren't the worst I've seen, but there are lots of little mistakes and misleading parts. I'll pick on the Mesolithic Haplogroup I distribution, because that's of particular interest to me. The 3 most informative ancient DNA sites from that period have been Motala (Sweden), Loschbour (Luxembourg), and La Brana (Spain). If this map was correct, we would have expected I* in Motala, I2a2 in Loschbour, and I2a1a in La Brana. Instead, we got a mix of I2a1b, I2a1a1a, I2a1*, and I2c2 in Motala, I2a1b in Loschbour, and C1a2 in La Brana. So obviously, the hypothesis in the Mesolithic map that I* and I2a2 were northern while I2a1 was southern is not holding up, and it curiously omits I2c and C1a2, which likely were more common in the Mesolithic.

  11. #11
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,296

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    1 members found this post helpful.
    First map, at 7,000 BC Ice Age is pretty much gone and sea levels are already very high like today. Sea level on this map is more accurate for LGM, 20,000 BC.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Aha View Post
    These are "Maps of Europe’s ancient tribes, kingdoms and Y-DNA" around 7000 BC, 2000 BC, 117 AD and 1227 AD by Sandra Rimmer from this page http://www.abroadintheyard.com/maps-...oms-and-y-dna/ Relief Artist: Kenneth Townsend
    How legit and accurate they are? Who is this Sandra Rimmer? The quality of the maps is impressive.













    I would also love to find the original relief map for map making purposes.

    As for the maps themselves, I already see a few mistakes... Concerning my area of interest (Ukraine) - they misnamed Rus' into "Russia". Also there are pockets of M458 majority in Ukraine, although it could be that it wasn't the case in the past.
    I guess about half of the map is a speculation and a guess (even if a good one). What do you think?

    Thanks

    and below is 5000BC based on ancient skeletal finds up to mid 2016

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...e_7000_YBP.png
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...e_7000_YBP.png

    5000BC based on Ancient skeltral finds tested DNA

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-12-16
    Posts
    35


    Country: USA - New York



    West Asia or Near East not north of the Alpine Belt. Spencer Wells, the geneticist that heads the Genographic Project in search of the scientific "Adam"In the film, Spencer Wells indicated that Thomas Jefferson's Y-Chromosome was "Phoenician", Read more: The National Geographic study "Who were the Phoenicians," revealed that Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States belonged to Y-chromosome Haplogroup K2. The quote from Wells that follows is the scientific explanation of what was discovered in studying Jefferson's DNA.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-06-18
    Posts
    12

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2 - J-L26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    M - M5a

    Ethnic group
    Anatolian, Greek, Macedonian, Bulgarian.
    Country: Sweden



    These are some neat looking maps, thanks!

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    09-06-18
    Posts
    211


    Ethnic group
    Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quite interesting. Questions:

    1. Where could I learn more about the changes in the shape of the maps? I see the 7,000BC is quite different from the current one, and I would like to understand it better
    2. In Iberia, it seems R1b appeared quite from an early age in an area quite similar to the current Catalonia. Only much later, R1b spread out to the rest of Iberia. How did this happen? Conquest? Or just diffusion through better adaptation?

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •