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Thread: Corded Ware Culture admixture against Yamnayans

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    Corded Ware Culture admixture against Yamnayans

    I have taken the results from Genetiker blog; the Pit Grave culture / Yamna is at around 80% EHG + 20% Caucasian; the Middle Neolithic Funnelbeaker culture (4300-2800 BC) provide some 20% WHG + 5% EHG + 75% EEF. The supposed blend of Neolithics and Yamnayans in the Corded Ware provide some 15% WHG + 20% EEF + 10% Caucasian + 55% EHG.

    admix.jpg


    Of course a simple blend between Yamnayans and Neolithics is not an answer as the incoming population would have 10% WHG + -17% EEF + 20% Caucasian + 100% EHG as to give the known results for CW... these percents only can be justified if newcomers outnumbered the local population. Also a 20% of EEF in CW is not supporting the discovery that the X chromosome displays a more local women intervention, as with simple numbers a Yamnayan male with 0% of EEF that would have descendency with a local farmer woman would have sons with 37% EEF, if such sons marry local womens again their EEF will rise to 55%...

    Some CW individuals display admixtures that are not known among Yamnayans: orange and red is known for Chucki, orange and cian is known for Goyet Q56-16, red and cian is known for Cioclovina, and cian and purple is known for Vestonice14.

    Maybe someone can give an explanation for these paradoxs or may provide better admixture results?
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    did you use Genetiker K = 14 or K = 16 admixture ?

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    the K = 14

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    I've studied the K = 14 too, and I find it very interesting.

    You'll find the Yamna, Afanasievo and Poltavka are all similar :
    lots of EHG with an important share of CHG and no EEF, their identified Y-DNA is R1b-P297

    Poltavka outlier, Potapovka, CW, Sintashta, Srubna & Andronovo are different :
    lots of EHG too, but CHG is reduced and they have EEF, their identified Y-DNA is R1a-M417
    they took over from the R1b-P297

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    the references in this K = 14 are not exact
    e.g. EEF is not the stutgart genome, it is more like NW Anatolian
    so you can't compare with other studies published
    but browsing within this K = 14 population gives some very interesting insights

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    Realy not, as it fits well with LBK (5% WHG + 95% EEF) and then with the successive Funnelbeaker, where the HG proxy increases x5 after some centuries as neighbours, so that the EEF seems reliable at least. By the way you are right that Yamnyans R1b are against even the Corded Ware R1a, and their derived cultures (Andronovo, Srubna, Sintashta...). It's water-clear that CW was IE, but it's origins are blurred.

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    One explanation could be that CW sprung from one of the cultures in Northern Russia or perhaps the Moscow region. I think Mallory alluded to this possbility due to the difficulty in deriving the material culture of Corded Ware from Yamna directly.

    Lothar Kilian isolated twenty-three diagnostic features. He argued that the Corded Ware burials possessed a series of traits not found in the Pontic-Caspian – amphorae, cord-decorated beakers, battle-axes – which are the essential markers of the Corded Ware culture. In contrast, the steppe burials utilized egg-shaped pottery, hammer-head pins, ochre and a variety of burial postures unknown in the Corded Ware horizon. While there may be some generic similarities, Kilian concluded that the specific differences do not support an historical connection between the two regions.’ (Mallory, 1989)


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    One explanation could be that CW sprung from one of the cultures in Northern Russia or perhaps the Moscow region. I think Mallory alluded to this possbility due to the difficulty in deriving the material culture of Corded Ware from Yamna directly.

    I think CW were Northern Yamnayans. Rich in R1a and more forest dweller hunter-farmer than steppe farmer-herder more R1b.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I think CW were Northern Yamnayans. Rich in R1a and more forest dweller hunter-farmer than steppe farmer-herder more R1b.
    Yes, and who took agriculture to those steppe people? Is Joahannes Krause right in being a 4900BC event coming from the South Caucasus?

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    it has been suggested that the CW/Sintashta people are actualy more western than eastern European in origin, because of their EEF admixture

    if I recall well David Anthony suggested the Abashevo culture as ancestral to Potapovka/Sintashta
    they were herders and probably had gotten horses from Yamna
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abashevo_culture

    from their DNA it is clear that CW and Potapovka/Sintashta have a common origin which is different from Yamna

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I think CW were Northern Yamnayans. Rich in R1a and more forest dweller hunter-farmer than steppe farmer-herder more R1b.
    Difficult case even for David Anthony:

    Srubnaya Ethnicity
    Russian archaeological traditions permit archaeologists to
    discuss the linguistic affiliations of prehistoric populations
    without much apology. Such a relaxed attitude toward
    language identity and material culture perhaps is facilitated
    by the steppe/forest ecological border that runs across
    southern Russia, which was a persistent cultural and
    linguistic border for millennia. Language and ecology
    are easily seen as associated in this region because they
    actually were associated historically at this persistent
    economic-cultural-linguistic border. Most experts agree
    that the languages spoken by the Scythians and Sarmatians
    across the western steppes, north of the Caspian and Black
    Seas, were Iranian, specifically from the eastern Iranian
    subgroup (“eastern” in relation to west Iranian within
    Iran), judging from roots contained in personal names, god
    names, and occasional other words noted by Greeks and
    Persians after 500 BC, and from toponyms in the steppes,
    as well as from archaeological remains that correlate with
    rituals specified in later Persian texts (Kuzmina 2007;
    Parpola 2002; Sims-Williams 2002). Continuity in skeletal
    traits and artifact styles between the LBA and the Iron Age
    suggests that the LBA (Srubnaya-Andronovo) population
    was ancestral to the Scythian-Saka population, so almost
    all Russian archaeologists accept that the languages of the
    LBA steppes were an archaic form of Iranian, ancestral
    to the Iranian languages spoken later in the same steppe
    regions (Koryakova and Epimakhov 2007:150). Western
    archaeologists tend to be dubious (Lamberg-Karlovsky
    2002). The late MBA or MBA II Sintashta-Potapovka-
    Filatovka chain of cultures (Figure 1.5) between the upper
    Tobol River in the east (Sintashta) and the upper Don in
    the west (Filatovka) was ancestral to the LBA Srubnaya-
    Andronovo cultures, so is often interpreted as the material
    residue of the common Indo-Iranian ancestral community.
    Finno-Ugric, the prehistoric ancestor of the Uralic
    languages spoken today in the forest zone north of the
    Samara Valley, borrowed vocabulary from both common
    Indo-Iranian and early Iranian (Koivulehto 2001), proving
    that these ancient languages bordered each other, so the
    forest-zone Volosovo and Garin-Bor cultures are often
    assumed to represent Finno-Ugric speakers. The Indo-
    Iranian ethnonym Arya/Ārya appeared as a loanword in
    ancestral Finno-Ugric as *orya, denoting “slave” (Carpelan
    and Parpola 2001:112), implying that Indo-Iranian Aryans
    were captured and enslaved by people in the forest zone.
    Arya/Ārya was a self-applied ethnonym of the composers
    of the oldest hymns in Sanskrit (in the Rig Veda) and early
    Iranian (in the Avesta), both compiled before 1000 BC, so
    it probably was a self-applied ethnonym of the speakers
    of common Indo-Iranian (Filatovka-Potapovka-Sintashta).
    Finno-Ugric *orya, “slave,” therefore implies hostilities
    between forest-zone Uralic and steppe-zone Indo-Iranian
    speakers. But another loan into common Finno-Ugric
    during the same period was common Indo-Iranian *asura,
    “lord,” borrowed into Finno-Ugric as *asera, “lord”
    or “prince,” implying alliance or integration between
    Uralic speakers and Indo-Iranian chiefs, testifying to the
    complexity of the relationships between Finno-Ugric
    speakers and Indo-Iranian speakers. Finno-Ugric later
    borrowed phonologically early Iranian terms for hundred,
    bee, honey, tribe/troop, wheel, spindle, bridge, and boat
    (Koivulehto 2001), probably during the Srubnaya period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Realy not, as it fits well with LBK (5% WHG + 95% EEF) and then with the successive Funnelbeaker, where the HG proxy increases x5 after some centuries as neighbours, so that the EEF seems reliable at least. By the way you are right that Yamnyans R1b are against even the Corded Ware R1a, and their derived cultures (Andronovo, Srubna, Sintashta...). It's water-clear that CW was IE, but it's origins are blurred.
    I have started another thread about a Khvalynsk newcomer who seems ancestral to Yamna here :
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ight=Khvalynsk
    some people didn't trust this K=14 admixture because of the EEF does not 100 % correspond to the light blue in this K=14.
    that is their choice
    I've browsed and checked a lot in this K = 14 population and to me it seems very logical
    but again,you cannot compare rigorously with studies that take the Stutgart genome as EEF reference

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Difficult case even for David Anthony:
    Continuity in skeletal
    traits and artifact styles between the LBA and the Iron Age
    suggests that the LBA (Srubnaya-Andronovo) population
    was ancestral to the Scythian-Saka population
    Does it mean that west scythian and the Altai Pazyryk scythian were different people?

    - The Altai scythians were achaeologicaly Atai natives.


    - Moreover, the iron age Atai admixture is similar to Okunvo Indians.
    [img]
    https://s31.postimg.org/5qn0sb09n/Capture2.png[/img]


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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Yes, and who took agriculture to those steppe people? Is Joahannes Krause right in being a 4900BC event coming from the South Caucasus?
    Iranian farmers coming through Caucasus.

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    Even so NW Asia Minor EN is blue as the sky...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Iranian farmers coming through Caucasus.
    Why would Iran farmers go to steppe by crossing mountains and not just go up via eastern caspian? Dont think steppe 4000bc had much Iran neolithic. but ok.

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    @Bicicleur, even so NW Asia Minor EN is blue as the sky...

    @johen, it's out of my scope, maybe different as could be vikings and anglo-saxons?

    @Olimpus Mons, deserts and lack of in between cultures

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Why would Iran farmers go to steppe by crossing mountains and not just go up via eastern caspian? Dont think steppe 4000bc had much Iran neolithic. but ok.
    Perhaps some of them went through eastern Caspian, though is likely that farming was mediated in big part by Maykop culture to Yamnaya. Yamnayans look like 75% Samara H-G and 25% Iranian Neolithic in this Harappa run.

    Samara HG Yamnaya Rise522 Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years CHG, Satsurblia georgia 13kya
    Population Population Population Population
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 6.13 S-Indian 0.62
    Baloch 14.33 Baloch 33.24 Baloch 62.71 Baloch 36.63
    Caucasian - Caucasian 6.58 Caucasian 24.97 Caucasian 54.15
    NE-Euro 75.62 NE-Euro 56.02 NE-Euro - NE-Euro 3.84
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0.59
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian - Siberian 0.77
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan 0.35 Papuan 0.15
    American 9.62 American 2.46 American - American -
    Beringian 0.15 Beringian 0.75 Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean - Mediterranean - Mediterranean - Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian 3.88 SW-Asian -
    San - San - San 0.18 San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy 0.25
    W-African 0.2 W-African 0.95 W-African 1.78 W-African 3.01

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Perhaps some of them went through eastern Caspian, though is likely that farming was mediated in big part by Maykop culture to Yamnaya. Yamnayans look like 75% Samara H-G and 25% Iranian Neolithic in this Harappa run.

    Samara HG Yamnaya Rise522 Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years CHG, Satsurblia georgia 13kya
    Population Population Population Population
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 6.13 S-Indian 0.62
    Baloch 14.33 Baloch 33.24 Baloch 62.71 Baloch 36.63
    Caucasian - Caucasian 6.58 Caucasian 24.97 Caucasian 54.15
    NE-Euro 75.62 NE-Euro 56.02 NE-Euro - NE-Euro 3.84
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0.59
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian - Siberian 0.77
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan 0.35 Papuan 0.15
    American 9.62 American 2.46 American - American -
    Beringian 0.15 Beringian 0.75 Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean - Mediterranean - Mediterranean - Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian 3.88 SW-Asian -
    San - San - San 0.18 San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy 0.25
    W-African 0.2 W-African 0.95 W-African 1.78 W-African 3.01
    It looks like 60/40 to me for Yamnaya Rise 522, with 40% being the "southern" component. That would fit with all the other academic analyses. Or, am I reading it incorrectly?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It looks like 60/40 to me for Yamnaya Rise 522, with 40% being the "southern" component. That would fit with all the other academic analyses. Or, am I reading it incorrectly?
    Looking at how much Baloch and Caucasian increased and that S-Indian completely vanished, there can't be more than 25%, I reckon at least from these numbers. There was one paper telling us that Yamnayans were 50% like Bronze Age Armenians, IIRC. But this could be due to migration of Yamnayans to the other side of Caucasus by Bronze Age, mixing their genes into population there and increasing similarity of two groups.

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    Sorry I'm being so dense. Isn't Rise 522, labelled Yamnaya, 33.24% Baloch and 6.58% Caucasus? Isn't that 40% of the total genome of Yamnaya?

    There seems to have been a steady flow north, as Samara had about 14%, which then increased to 33%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sorry I'm being so dense. Isn't Rise 522, labelled Yamnaya, 33.24% Baloch and 6.58% Caucasus? Isn't that 40% of the total genome of Yamnaya?

    There seems to have been a steady flow north, as Samara had about 14%, which then increased to 33%.
    Look at Iranian Neolithic. It had 24% of Caucasian. In what proportions they had to mix with Samara to drop Caucasian to 6% in Yamnaya? 1 to 3. NE Euro in Samara drops a quarter, 25% in transition to Yamanya. It also gives 1 to 3 ratio, when considering that they mixed with Iranian Farmer who had 0 of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Look at Iranian Neolithic. It had 24% of Caucasian. In what proportions they had to mix with Samara to drop Caucasian to 6% in Yamnaya? 1 to 4. NE Euro in Samara drops a quarter, 25% in transition to Yamanya. It also gives 1 to 4 ratio, when considering that they mixed with Iranian Farmer who had 0 of it.
    early people in the steppe were EHG admixed with some WHG
    the people coming in from south of the Caucasus were also EHG, but had mixed with CHG en route

    that is at least what K=14 is telling me

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    early people in the steppe were EHG admixed with some WHG
    Nope, EHG is a lot of WHG admixed with ANE. In Harappa NE Euro and Baloch.
    the people coming in from south of the Caucasus were also EHG, but had mixed with CHG en route
    that is at least what K=14 is telling me[/QUOTE]Where did you get this? Post the run.
    Harappa shows that there was a little admixture 4% of EHG in CHG, but no Caucasian CHG admixture in Samara EHG. It denotes some EHG migration into CHG before neolithic.

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    for the run, look at the 1st post in this thread and here :

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016...apita-genomes/

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