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Thread: Corded Ware Culture admixture against Yamnayans

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    the people coming in from south of the Caucasus were also EHG, but had mixed with CHG en route

    that is at least what K=14 is telling me
    where do you see it? (that is in pre-Bronze samples)

    By the way there are interesting people: Hungary BA (so after the CW) was 25% WHG, 25% EHG, 50% EEF (just seems a simple mix between SHG and LBK); there is no CHG... why? the Pannonian plain is the natural pass to go from the steppes to Central Europe, and moreover the ecosystem fits weel herders.

    Another set of five samples (C Asia Minor PN) that I dn't know from which paper come deliver 75% EEF and 25% CHG, it's Central Asia Minor Pre-Neolithic? that would be quite interesting for all questions about peopling Europe if such pop also expanded into it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    where do you see it? (that is in pre-Bronze samples)
    there are 3 khvalynsk genomes
    2 are similar to Karelian and Samara HG
    the 3rd is Yamna-like (Yamna could be a mixture of 2/3 of this 3rd Khvalynsk and 1/3 Karelian/Samara HG)

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    @Lebrok,
    Impossible.

    That is what I don’t get it. If there was a movement of people into North Caucasus from south Caucasus that took agriculture and some pastoral lifestyle it would be the Shulaveri-Shomu that were a vast amount of people in Georgia that disappeared and were replaced by 4900bc.
    And if I am right it was them (the SSC) taking PIE language (as Joahnnes Krause at Max plank seem to indicate) and taking (IMO) R1b-M269 and L23 into several places around the planet them their genetics is…. Complicated. Shulaveri Shomu will be a mix of Balkan Hunter gatheres///Balkan Farmers///Anatolia Barcin///Kotias.

    1. You first notice “them” in Fikertepe (6600BC-5900BC) . If they were fikirtepe they were very admix with whatever you get of Balkan (like Bulgaria) as huntergatherer. So, if am right we should never forget that actually there had to be a link to Starčevo culture or the Kőrös culture or the Criş culture. Its just that SCK had not much Barcin Admix, and while they were moving the south shores of Black sea in Anatolia they admix a lot with Barcin, so by Fikiertepe they would be Starcevo like mixing with Barcin. (http://r1b2westerneurope.blogs.sapo....eri-shomu-3917)



    1. When in 6000bc they arrive into South Caucasus, into the land of CHG, they were getting the CHG admix increased. And increased because let’s not assume that CHG stayed put in Georgia and not moved along south cost of black sea?! – ridiculous. So even Fikertepe should have some CHG.




    1. So when Mentesh tepe fell and Shulaveri where gone… You can track them as a stressed out pop in the Kuban river, even getting kicked out by Maykop. So maybe were them already admixed with more EHG arriving to samara and become a large component of Khvalynsk and Yamnaya in Samara… (http://r1b2westerneurope.blogs.sapo....to-kubans-3429 )



    Just my take. And I will be right in the end. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Why would Iran farmers go to steppe by crossing mountains and not just go up via eastern caspian? Dont think steppe 4000bc had much Iran neolithic. but ok.
    Why eastern Caspian, ?............they will travel via western Caspian like they do today, where most of people live ......

    Eastern caspian is too hard , they had to deal with the fast flowing oxus river


    Between Azeri lands in western southern caspian sea area to Daghestan in western northen caspian sea area, we find nearly every different Ydna haplogroup

    drinking water is needed to survive , from the Aral sea it flowed to the caspian sea, then from the caspian sea into the black sea. The black sea did not penetrate into the Aegean sea until ~9000BC, so people like Villabruna could cross from Anatolia into europe without getting wet
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    @Lebrok,
    Impossible.

    That is what I don’t get it. If there was a movement of people into North Caucasus from south Caucasus that took agriculture and some pastoral lifestyle it would be the Shulaveri-Shomu that were a vast amount of people in Georgia that disappeared and were replaced by 4900bc.
    And if I am right it was them (the SSC) taking PIE language (as Joahnnes Krause at Max plank seem to indicate) and taking (IMO) R1b-M269 and L23 into several places around the planet them their genetics is…. Complicated. Shulaveri Shomu will be a mix of Balkan Hunter gatheres///Balkan Farmers///Anatolia Barcin///Kotias.

    1. You first notice “them” in Fikertepe (6600BC-5900BC) . If they were fikirtepe they were very admix with whatever you get of Balkan (like Bulgaria) as huntergatherer. So, if am right we should never forget that actually there had to be a link to Starčevo culture or the Kőrös culture or the Criş culture. Its just that SCK had not much Barcin Admix, and while they were moving the south shores of Black sea in Anatolia they admix a lot with Barcin, so by Fikiertepe they would be Starcevo like mixing with Barcin. (http://r1b2westerneurope.blogs.sapo....eri-shomu-3917)



    1. When in 6000bc they arrive into South Caucasus, into the land of CHG, they were getting the CHG admix increased. And increased because let’s not assume that CHG stayed put in Georgia and not moved along south cost of black sea?! – ridiculous. So even Fikertepe should have some CHG.




    1. So when Mentesh tepe fell and Shulaveri where gone… You can track them as a stressed out pop in the Kuban river, even getting kicked out by Maykop. So maybe were them already admixed with more EHG arriving to samara and become a large component of Khvalynsk and Yamnaya in Samara… (http://r1b2westerneurope.blogs.sapo....to-kubans-3429 )



    Just my take. And I will be right in the end. :)
    Sorry I'm not familiar with Shulaveri and their faith. Here are more Harappa samples, perhaps will tell you something more.

    NE1 Hungary EN Anatolia, Barcin? CHG, Satsurblia georgia 13kya Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years Kvalinsk HG
    Population Population Population Population Population
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 0.62 S-Indian 6.13 S-Indian -
    Baloch - Baloch - Baloch 36.63 Baloch 62.71 Baloch 20.2
    Caucasian 28.27 Caucasian 37.64 Caucasian 54.15 Caucasian 24.97 Caucasian -
    NE-Euro 12.13 NE-Euro 0.86 NE-Euro 3.84 NE-Euro - NE-Euro 71.08
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0.59 SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian 0.77 Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan 0.15 Papuan 0.35 Papuan -
    American - American - American - American - American 6.89
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian - Beringian - Beringian 1.7
    Mediterranean 45.75 Mediterranean 47.24 Mediterranean - Mediterranean - Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian 13.45 SW-Asian 14 SW-Asian - SW-Asian 3.88 SW-Asian -
    San - San - San - San 0.18 San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy 0.05 Pygmy - Pygmy 0.25 Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.35 W-African 0.27 W-African 3.01 W-African 1.78 W-African 0.13

    For more explanation about harappa admixture go here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...d-contemporary
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Sorry I'm not familiar with Shulaveri and their faith. Here are more Harappa samples, perhaps will tell you something more.

    For more explanation about harappa admixture go here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...d-contemporary

    HI Lebrok,
    Nope. I think this references is too admixed already. We need to have more crude references. We need to have a lot more samples from Balkans, from south Caucasus (mostly here) and North Caucasus.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    where do you see it? (that is in pre-Bronze samples)

    By the way there are interesting people: Hungary BA (so after the CW) was 25% WHG, 25% EHG, 50% EEF (just seems a simple mix between SHG and LBK); there is no CHG... why? the Pannonian plain is the natural pass to go from the steppes to Central Europe, and moreover the ecosystem fits weel herders.

    Another set of five samples (C Asia Minor PN) that I dn't know from which paper come deliver 75% EEF and 25% CHG, it's Central Asia Minor Pre-Neolithic? that would be quite interesting for all questions about peopling Europe if such pop also expanded into it.
    Indeed Hungarian BA is peculiar. Not much, or non at all, Iranian/CHG admixture. There is however a big increase in EHG/WHG, the rest is of EEF type farmer. He might be a mixture of West Yamnaya and Cucuteni.
    Corded Ware guys look almost all the same, mostly EHG/WHG with 5-10% of Iranian Neolithic/CHG, and 5-10% of EEF. The EEF thy could have picked up from local farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    HI Lebrok,
    Nope. I think this references is too admixed already. We need to have more crude references. We need to have a lot more samples from Balkans, from south Caucasus (mostly here) and North Caucasus.
    Armenian Chalcolithic Armenia MBA M930063 Armenia LBA M691697
    Population Population Population
    S-Indian 0.27 S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch 17.64 Baloch 23.13 Baloch 28.22
    Caucasian 41.35 Caucasian 38.66 Caucasian 30.75
    NE-Euro 20.25 NE-Euro 18.57 NE-Euro 24.77
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian 0.54 Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan 0.92 Papuan -
    American 0.55 American 1.3 American 1.54
    Beringian - Beringian 0.59 Beringian -
    Mediterranean 11.12 Mediterranean 9.34 Mediterranean 6.98
    SW-Asian 8.81 SW-Asian 4.94 SW-Asian 6.38
    San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African - W-African 1.99 W-African 1.36


    EN Anatolia, Barcin? CHG, Satsurblia georgia 13kya Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years
    Population Population Population
    S-Indian - S-Indian 0.62 S-Indian 6.13
    Baloch - Baloch 36.63 Baloch 62.71
    Caucasian 37.64 Caucasian 54.15 Caucasian 24.97
    NE-Euro 0.86 NE-Euro 3.84 NE-Euro -
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0.59 SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian 0.77 Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan 0.15 Papuan 0.35
    American - American - American -
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 47.24 Mediterranean - Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian 14 SW-Asian - SW-Asian 3.88
    San - San - San 0.18
    E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy 0.25 Pygmy -
    W-African 0.27 W-African 3.01 W-African 1.78


    Most Armenian admixtures look local, except 20% of NE Euro. NE Euro didn't exist here in such numbers before, look at 3 guys below Armenians. Seems like there was a big Yamnaya invasion into Armenia at the end of Neolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post

    By the way there are interesting people: Hungary BA (so after the CW) was 25% WHG, 25% EHG, 50% EEF (just seems a simple mix between SHG and LBK); there is no CHG... why? the Pannonian plain is the natural pass to go from the steppes to Central Europe, and moreover the ecosystem fits weel herders.
    do you mean these people :

    Vatya Hungary Szazhalombatta-Foldvar [RISE254] M 2128-1909 BC I FI2, CTS2514, CTS3384
    or I2a1 (Tagankin) (Z2657/CTS7669/PF3765+ Z2673/CTS12003/PF3846+ Z2652/CTS4568/PF3733+, FGC18615/Y12523- FGC18580/Y7862- FGC18589/Y5341- S6669-, Z2616/S5140+ V1191/Z2611/PF3638+)
    J1c9 Allentoft 2015; Mathieson 2015; additional info from Vladimir Tagankin
    Vatya Hungary Erd 4 [RISE479] M
    I2a2a1a2a L1229 T2b Allentoft 2015; Mathieson 2015
    Vatya Hungary Erd 4 [RISE480] F


    U5a2a Allentoft 2015
    Vatya Hungary Erd 4 [RISE483] F


    H2a1 Allentoft 2015
    Vatya Hungary Erd 4 [RISE484] F


    T1a1 Allentoft 2015
    Middle Bronze Age Hungary Battonya Voris Oktober [RISE349] F 2034-1748 BC

    T2b3 Allentoft 2015
    Maros Hungary Szoreg - C [RISE373] F 1886-1696 BC

    K1a2a Allentoft 2015
    Maros Hungary Szoreg - C [RISE374] M 1866-1619 BC G2a F3088
    or (Kendall) G2a2a1a (PF3177)
    T2b Allentoft 2015; Mathieson 2015; add info from Ted Kendall
    Gáta/Wieslburg Hungary M85 Enese elkerül? 02. Kóny, Proletár-d?l? II [KON 6]
    1770-1760 BC R1b1a2 M269 U5b1 Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 thesis
    Vatya Hungary Szazhalombatta-Foldvar [RISE247] M 1746-1611 BC I2a2a1 CTS9183 H11a Allentoft 2015; Mathieson 2015


    Vatya-Maros-Gata/Wieslburg 4.1-3.6 ka?

    Both Hungarian EN and CA have EEF with some WHG, but no EHG nor CHG
    Hungarian has EHG added, but also a fraction of CHG

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Another set of five samples (C Asia Minor PN) that I dn't know from which paper come deliver 75% EEF and 25% CHG, it's Central Asia Minor Pre-Neolithic? that would be quite interesting for all questions about peopling Europe if such pop also expanded into it.
    Turkey Boncuklu [Bon004] PPN M 6500-6200 BC G2a2b2b – F705
    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8 Bon004 Pre-Pottery Neolithic > 8300 G2a2b2b-F705 calls Centraal Anatolia PPN 85 % EEF + 5 % steppe + 5 % WHG + 4 % CHG + 1 % (Karitiana/ Natufi/ Papua)
    Turkey Boncuklu [Bon002] PPN F


    K1a http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8
    Turkey Boncuklu [Bon005] PPN F


    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8
    Turkey Boncuklu [Bon001] PPN M 8212 – 7952 BC G2a2b2b1a – PF3422
    U3 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8 Bon001 Pre-Pottery Neolithic 8212–7952 G2a2b2b1a-PF3422 calls
    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep001] Pottery Neolithic M 7500-5800 BC G, J2 or R1b
    K1a http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8 Tep001 Pottery Neolithic 7500–5800 G, J2, or R1b calls Centraal Anatolia PN 75 % EEF + 20 % CHG + 2 % natufi + 1 % steppe + 1 % Papua + 1 % (WHG/ Eskimo/ Karitiana)
    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep006] Pottery Neolithic M 7500-5800 BC C1a2 – Y10446
    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8 Tep006 Pottery Neolithic 7500–5800 C1a2-Y10446 calls
    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep003] Pottery Neolithic M 7500-5800 BC G2a2a – PF3159*
    N1b1a http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8 Tep003 Pottery Neolithic 7500–5800 G2a2a-PF3159* calls
    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep002] Pottery Neolithic F


    K1a12a http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8
    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep004] Pottery Neolithic F


    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8


    why does Boncuklu only have 4% CHG ,while Tepecik has 20%?
    Boncuklu is older, it is PPN, while Tepecik is PN
    it look like the CHG came along with the pottery


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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Turkey Boncuklu [Bon004] PPN M 6500-6200 BC G2a2b2b – F705
    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8 Bon004 Pre-Pottery Neolithic > 8300 G2a2b2b-F705 calls Centraal Anatolia PPN 85 % EEF + 5 % steppe + 5 % WHG + 4 % CHG + 1 % (Karitiana/ Natufi/ Papua)
    Turkey Boncuklu [Bon002] PPN F


    K1a http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8
    Turkey Boncuklu [Bon005] PPN F


    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8
    Turkey Boncuklu [Bon001] PPN M 8212 – 7952 BC G2a2b2b1a – PF3422
    U3 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8 Bon001 Pre-Pottery Neolithic 8212–7952 G2a2b2b1a-PF3422 calls
    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep001] Pottery Neolithic M 7500-5800 BC G, J2 or R1b
    K1a http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8 Tep001 Pottery Neolithic 7500–5800 G, J2, or R1b calls Centraal Anatolia PN 75 % EEF + 20 % CHG + 2 % natufi + 1 % steppe + 1 % Papua + 1 % (WHG/ Eskimo/ Karitiana)
    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep006] Pottery Neolithic M 7500-5800 BC C1a2 – Y10446
    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8 Tep006 Pottery Neolithic 7500–5800 C1a2-Y10446 calls
    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep003] Pottery Neolithic M 7500-5800 BC G2a2a – PF3159*
    N1b1a http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8 Tep003 Pottery Neolithic 7500–5800 G2a2a-PF3159* calls
    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep002] Pottery Neolithic F


    K1a12a http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8
    Turkey Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep004] Pottery Neolithic F


    N1a1a1 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8


    why does Boncuklu only have 4% CHG ,while Tepecik has 20%?
    Boncuklu is older, it is PPN, while Tepecik is PN
    it look like the CHG came along with the pottery
    Definitely CHG/Caucasian admixture expansion. Are any of these in Gedmatch to check admixtures?

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    Haven't we known for a while that CHG like ancestry moved into Anatolia and the Levant as time passed, just as "Anatolian farmer" type ancestry moved north and east? That's what the papers have pointed out, as well as some of the amateur bloggers.

    Some analyses also have a bit of it in Copper Age people of Europe like Otzi, and in some of the Hungarians, although not all. I think we may see a lot more of it coming at that time, and later in the Bronze Age, once we get some more ancient southern European samples.

    There were two big movements out of the Near East. One was from a group centered around Anatolia and the Levant, and one was from the southern Caucasus/Iran. The latter moved into India and southwest into the rest of the Near East, and north as well, ultimately reaching the steppe. The former went into Europe, across North Africa, down into the Arabian peninsula and into Africa and also west and north west into other areas of the Near East. It's a sort of bifurcated "Womb of Nations" to use Dienekes' old term. That ancestry is what binds all those areas together. As pertains to Europe, you have that "Caucasus" type ancestry entering Europe both from the southeast and the east with steppe people.

    As for percentages of "Caucasus", or "Iranian farmer", or "southern" or whatever , using admixture programs which use modern people instead of ancient genomes as references is always going to give a distorted picture, because those groups are admixed themselves. Plus, as a counterbalance to admixture, you need to use formal stats. Finally, we need to get access to the papers which have analyzed lots of samples from the Caucasus and surrounding areas for the relevant time periods. Until then, we won't know how much ANE or EHG or whatever was south of the Caucasus at relevant times.

    Anyway, that's how I see it.


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    There is only a Hungary BA sample in the K = 14, and without further refs I don't who was.

    why does Boncuklu only have 4% CHG ,while Tepecik has 20%?
    Boncuklu is older, it is PPN, while Tepecik is PN
    it look like the CHG came along with the pottery
    Seems reasonable, but surely after the regional domestication of a given plant or a given animal there was a dinamic burst of migrations and expansion: herders occupying areas were barley can't grow, barley where wheat can't resist temperatures, goat-herders in mountains and forests where sheeps have not a so easy access, etc.

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    As for percentages, using admixture programs which use modern people instead of ancient genomes is always going to give a distorted picture.
    108% true...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Haven't we known for a while that CHG like ancestry moved into Anatolia and the Levant as time passed, just as "Anatolian farmer" type ancestry moved north and east? That's what the papers have pointed out, as well as some of the amateur bloggers.

    Some analyses also have a bit of it in Copper Age people of Europe like Otzi, and in some of the Hungarians, although not all. I think we may see a lot more of it coming at that time, and later in the Bronze Age, once we get some more ancient southern European samples.

    There were two big movements out of the Near East. One was from a group centered around Anatolia and the Levant, and one was from the southern Caucasus/Iran. The latter moved into India and southwest into the rest of the Near East, and north as well, ultimately reaching the steppe. The former went into Europe, across North Africa, down into the Arabian peninsula and into Africa and also west and north west into other areas of the Near East. It's a sort of bifurcated "Womb of Nations" to use Dienekes' old term. That ancestry is what binds all those areas together. As pertains to Europe, you have that "Caucasus" type ancestry entering Europe both from the southeast and the east with steppe people.

    As for percentages of "Caucasus", or "Iranian farmer", or "southern" or whatever , using admixture programs which use modern people instead of ancient genomes as references is always going to give a distorted picture, because those groups are admixed themselves. Plus, as a counterbalance to admixture, you need to use formal stats. Finally, we need to get access to the papers which have analyzed lots of samples from the Caucasus and surrounding areas for the relevant time periods. Until then, we won't know how much ANE or EHG or whatever was south of the Caucasus at relevant times.

    Anyway, that's how I see it.
    The difference I guess, is that Caucasus admixture in Neolithic Anatolia is from CHG mostly and only minimal from Iranian Neolithic. Caucasus admixture in Yamnaya is mostly from Iranian Neolithic and only minimal from CHG.

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    I don't save the results of all the formal stats analyses being done. Perhaps I should save some, but I don't. I've been figuring once we have the long awaited paper everything may change anyway, at least slightly. My recollection, however, is that one of the "CHG" samples, Satsurblia, perhaps, can be modeled as mostly Iran Neolithic with some EHG.

    The CHG samples are very old. I'm a bit skeptical that some pure "CHG" population survived and was moving into western Anatolia at these late dates. For some analysts I think using the ancient sample is a convenient way to track the ancestry, not that some "pure" population remained. The CHG would be mixed with some other ancestry, I believe. I do also think, however, that some experimenters would prefer to think this is some pure northern Caucasus/quasi European ancestry, rather than something related to Iranian Neolithic.

    If I'm remembering this incorrectly, someone can correct the record.

    There's a mistake in post 37. Anatolia Neolithic moved east and northeast in the Near East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't save the results of all the formal stats analyses being done. Perhaps I should save some, but I don't. I've been figuring once we have the long awaited paper everything may change anyway, at least slightly. My recollection, however, is that one of the "CHG" samples, Satsurblia, perhaps, can be modeled as mostly Iran Neolithic with some EHG.

    The CHG samples are very old. I'm a bit skeptical that some pure "CHG" population survived and was moving into western Anatolia at these late dates. For some analysts I think using the ancient sample is a convenient way to track the ancestry, not that some "pure" population remained. The CHG would be mixed with some other ancestry, I believe. I do also think, however, that some experimenters would prefer to think this is some pure northern Caucasus/quasi European ancestry, rather than something related to Iranian Neolithic.

    If I'm remembering this incorrectly, someone can correct the record.

    There's a mistake in post 37. Anatolia Neolithic moved east and northeast in the Near East.
    Yes it could be modeled like this, because CHG and Iranian Farmer where very related and there was a leak of EHG through caucasus too. On top of it all 3 groups were related on very ancient level through Baloch admixture. All had substantial level of it. My deduction comes from analyzing proportion of Caucasus and Baloch admixtures in Yamnayans, and these point to Iranian Farmer being main source and not CHG.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I've studied the K = 14 too, and I find it very interesting.

    You'll find the Yamna, Afanasievo and Poltavka are all similar :
    lots of EHG with an important share of CHG and no EEF, their identified Y-DNA is R1b-P297

    Poltavka outlier, Potapovka, CW, Sintashta, Srubna & Andronovo are different :
    lots of EHG too, but CHG is reduced and they have EEF, their identified Y-DNA is R1a-M417
    they took over from the R1b-P297
    There is clear evidence of steppe mixing with EEF (almost certainly directly to the West) in Srubna, Poltavka, Sintashta, and Corded Ware that must have happened prior to, or at least without any CHG/Iran Neolithic admixture(or very little). This is consistent with the notion of steppe mixing with Europe very early on, which subsequently formed, at least in part, the R1a dominant populations that spread onto the steppe after Yamnaya.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I just see a simple expansion of CW over unprofited Central Asian steppes (Sintashta, Andronovo, etc.), carrying there R1a and developing there the great Indo-Aryan branch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I just see a simple expansion of CW over unprofited Central Asian steppes (Sintashta, Andronovo, etc.), carrying there R1a and developing there the great Indo-Aryan branch.
    Perhaps, but what is CW? It appears to be composed of EHG and EEF admixture with less CHG than Yamnaya, and in some samples no CHG at all (or barely).

    Actually we see the same thing in Bell Beaker, Unetice, and Nordic Bronze age too. What I'm saying is that these populations are evidence of Steppe mixing with EEF/WHG before the arrival of CHG in the magnitudes seen in Yamnaya.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This is consistent with a pre-Yamnaya PIE that began to move into Western Europe before what we all call Yamnaya.

    I still think Yamnaya spoke Indo-Iranian, which was closer to Indic than Iranian (Indic Homeland). CW at the outset was probably very Indic sounding as well, but eventually differentiated into Iranian on the steppe and Baltic in the north. Compare Lithuanian, Sanskrit, and Avestan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    There is clear evidence of steppe mixing with EEF (almost certainly directly to the West) in Srubna, Poltavka, Sintashta, and Corded Ware that must have happened prior to, or at least without any CHG/Iran Neolithic admixture(or very little). This is consistent with the notion of steppe mixing with Europe very early on, which subsequently formed, at least in part, the R1a dominant populations that spread onto the steppe after Yamnaya.
    The samples from East -Central Yamnaya that we have tell us a different story. There is only mixing with Iranian Neolithic and CHG. You might be right about West Yamnaya but we don't have any samples yet. Corded show both influences Iranian and EEF farmers.

    HarappaWorld in Gedmatch admixtures of ancient populations are very telling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Perhaps, but what is CW? It appears to be composed of EHG and EEF admixture with less CHG than Yamnaya, and in some samples no CHG at all (or barely).
    Isn't it more likely that they came with IN/CHG admixture already and got EEF from local farmers? You know, central and even north europe were full of them, right?

    Actually we see the same thing in Bell Beaker, Unetice, and Nordic Bronze age too. What I'm saying is that these populations are evidence of Steppe mixing with EEF/WHG before the arrival of CHG in the magnitudes seen in Yamnaya.
    A good evidence of Bronze Age population with high WHG/EHG without IN/CHG is only Hungarian Bronze Age. They could have been West Yamnayans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    This is consistent with a pre-Yamnaya PIE that began to move into Western Europe before what we all call Yamnaya.

    I still think Yamnaya spoke Indo-Iranian, which was closer to Indic than Iranian (Indic Homeland). CW at the outset was probably very Indic sounding as well, but eventually differentiated into Iranian on the steppe and Baltic in the north. Compare Lithuanian, Sanskrit, and Avestan.
    Nothing but noncense. Lithuanian has absolutely nothing to do with the Iranian. Greek & Armenian are closer to Iranian than Lithuanian, lmao what are you talking about???

    Proto-Iranian is much older that Corded Ware culture. Corded Ware is max 2900 BCE.

    Proto-Iranian is from 4000 BCE.






    http://www.geocurrents.info/cultural...ean-was-spoken

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    CW was proto-Germanic, has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the Iranian, period. Proto-Iranian predate CW by at least 1000 years. Actually, Iranian is closer to Armenian and Greek due to Graeco-Aryan connection in West Asia. Proto-Iranian was antive to the Iranian Plateau. NOBODY speaks Iranian outside the Iranian Plateau. Iranian is part of the Zagros Mountains and the Iranian Plateau.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan

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