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Thread: Corded Ware Culture admixture against Yamnayans

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Isn't it more likely that they came with IN/CHG admixture already and got EEF from local farmers? You know, central and even north europe were full of them, right?

    A good evidence of Bronze Age population with high WHG/EHG without IN/CHG is only Hungarian Bronze Age. They could have been West Yamnayans.
    There's several samples in post Yamnaya (presumably IE) cultures that show disproportionately low CHG, and it does look completely absent in some. I'm going off the admixture run. I'm saying this looks like evidence that there was early mixing between EHG/Steppe and the farming cultures to the West. The Hungarian Sample is the best example with none, but I'm saying that this looks to show up in many samples in all of the post-Yamnaya layers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    CW was proto-Germanic, has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the Iranian, period. Proto-Iranian predate CW by at least 1000 years. Actually, Iranian is closer to Armenian and Greek due to Graeco-Aryan is West Asia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan
    No, CW was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early to be called Proto-Germanic. Proto-Germanic is Nordic Bronze age.

    Lithuanian is strikingly similar to Indic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Nothing but noncense. Lithuanian has absolutely nothing to do with the Iranian. Greek & Armenian are closer to Iranian than Lithuanian, lmao what are you talking about???

    Proto-Iranian is much older that Corded Ware culture. Corded Ware is max 2900 BCE.

    Proto-Iranian is from 4000 BCE.






    http://www.geocurrents.info/cultural...ean-was-spoken
    You don't know what you're talking about. Lithuanian and Indic are ridiculously similar AND Lithuanian is essentially identical to PIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    No, CW was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early to be called Proto-Germanic. Proto-Germanic is Nordic Bronze age.

    Lithuanian is strikingly similar to Indic.
    lol, you don't know what you are talking about. CW were resposible for Nordic Bronze Age after they arrived from Yamnaya. CW was just proto-Germanic. Nothing special about it.

    Indic is not even close to the ancient Sanskrit. 2 very different languages. Indic people don't even understand Sanskrit. Indic is for a HUGE part Dravidian. How can it be similar to Lithuanian, lmao ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    You don't know what you're talking about. Lithuanian and Indic are ridiculously similar AND Lithuanian is essentially identical to PIE.
    Lithuanian derived from proto-Balto-Slavic. Has nothing to do with PIE. It is not even directly evovled from PIE. It has been evolved from proto-Baltic.

    First we got frist stage PIE around the Iranian Plateau,
    then second stage of PIE in Yamnaya Horizon,
    then proto-Balto-Slavic,
    then proto-Baltic,
    then proto-Western Baltic
    then proto-Lithuanian,
    then modern Lithuanian

    So, to many steps from PIE. Lithuanian has nothing to do with PIE. And definitely nothing to do with Iranian/Aryan. Lithuanian has many Finno-Ugric (Mongoloid) infuences...

    I'm sure proto-Graeco-Iranian, proto Anatolian were much closer to PIE, to it's source, since first stage of PIE is from West Asia.

    Proto-Iranian is even OLDER than then proto-Balto-Slavic.

    Indic and Sanskrit are 2 very different languages, there are only very few similarities between Sanskrit and modern-Indic. People in India don't understand Sanskrit. Indic is mostly Dravidian....

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    Lithuanian is a VERY young language. Only 1000 years old! Split between Latvia and Lithuanian (from proto-Baltic, then proto-Western Baltic) was only 1000 years ago. It is also heavily mixed with Finno-Ugric (Mongoloid). Nothing special about it.

    First we got frist stage PIE around the Iranian Plateau,
    then second stage of PIE in Yamnaya Horizon,
    then proto-Balto-Slavic,
    then proto-Baltic,
    then proto-Western Baltic
    then proto-Lithuanian,
    then modern Lithuanian





    http://www.sci-news.com/otherscience...ppe-02516.html

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Corded Ware is only from 2900 BCE. Aryan split from Graeco-Aryan is from 5300 BCE. It was MUCH older than Corded Ware. Corded Ware has absolutely nothing to do with Graeco-Aryan that took shape in West Asia. There is almost 2500 years gap between Graeco-Aryan and Corded Ware. Graeco-Aryan connection is MUCH older. Corded Ware was very young and was actually proto-Germanic, nothing special about it at all. Stop with your ridiculous claims that proto-Iranian is from Corded Ware. Just don't insult proto-Iranian people, my direct ancestors...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    This is consistent with a pre-Yamnaya PIE that began to move into Western Europe before what we all call Yamnaya.

    I still think Yamnaya spoke Indo-Iranian, which was closer to Indic than Iranian (Indic Homeland). CW at the outset was probably very Indic sounding as well, but eventually differentiated into Iranian on the steppe and Baltic in the north. Compare Lithuanian, Sanskrit, and Avestan.
    pre-Yamnayan PIE going west? which aracheological culture support it? as far as I know there is none.

    For the linguistic side, in the CW area developed Germanic and Balto-Slavic, and such branches are first degree sisters.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    lol, you don't know what you are talking about. CW were resposible for Nordic Bronze Age after they arrived from Yamnaya. CW was just proto-Germanic. Nothing special about it.
    Nordic Bronze age was over a thousand years after CW. Saying that CW was "responsible" for NBA isn't correct. A lot of shit happens in a thousand years and this is a unique culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Indic is not even close to the ancient Sanskrit. 2 very different languages. Indic people don't even understand Sanskrit. Indic is for a HUGE part Dravidian. How can it be similar to Lithuanian, lmao ?
    Sanskrit is the earliest written Indic language. So WTF are you talking about

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Lithuanian is a VERY young language. Only 1000 years old! Split between Latvia and Lithuanian (from proto-Baltic, then proto-Western Baltic) was only 1000 years ago. It is also heavily mixed with Finno-Ugric (Mongoloid). Nothing special about it.

    First we got frist stage PIE around the Iranian Plateau,
    then second stage of PIE in Yamnaya Horizon,
    then proto-Balto-Slavic,
    then proto-Baltic,
    then proto-Western Baltic
    then proto-Lithuanian,
    then modern Lithuanian





    http://www.sci-news.com/otherscience...ppe-02516.html
    Lithuanian is so similar to the reconstructed PIE that you can't call it a "young" language. It was historically attested late, but it's basic forms have been spoken since PIE itself.

    All of your great looking trees don't change this or the similarities to Sanskrit.

    And the oldest IE Language is certainly Anatolian, not your fantasy PIE/Iranian on the Iranian Plateau.
    Last edited by holderlin; 22-12-16 at 16:44. Reason: poop

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    pre-Yamnayan PIE going west? which aracheological culture support it? as far as I know there is none.

    For the linguistic side, in the CW area developed Germanic and Balto-Slavic, and such branches are first degree sisters.
    Evidence? There is mixing all over the place at the CT/Steppe interface. How bout Sredny Stog and Bug Dniester? And I don't think we got the samples we would need to really investigate this. I know the graves are a complete mixed bag physically with Steppe and Mediterranean types. I think we only got sample from the Yamnaya horizon above Dnieper Donets, which actually gave some indication of this process with an I2 male, but who was very autosomally Yamnaya.

    Germanic also shows coevolution with Celtic, and it also contains a whole vocabulary Non-IE sea faring words among others. Probably the I1 dominated farmers that preceded them. It's actually really interesting because not coincidentally you have the first North European culture where boats and the sea play a huge part.

    Germanic actually looks like an interface language between Baltic, Celtic, and the pre-IE (presumably, but this is vague) Scandinavian farmers.
    Last edited by holderlin; 22-12-16 at 16:52. Reason: forgot my point and remembered some stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Corded Ware is only from 2900 BCE. Aryan split from Graeco-Aryan is from 5300 BCE. It was MUCH older than Corded Ware. Corded Ware has absolutely nothing to do with Graeco-Aryan that took shape in West Asia. There is almost 2500 years gap between Graeco-Aryan and Corded Ware. Graeco-Aryan connection is MUCH older. Corded Ware was very young and was actually proto-Germanic, nothing special about it at all. Stop with your ridiculous claims that proto-Iranian is from Corded Ware. Just don't insult proto-Iranian people, my direct ancestors...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan
    My god. Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    There is clear evidence of steppe mixing with EEF (almost certainly directly to the West) in Srubna, Poltavka, Sintashta, and Corded Ware that must have happened prior to, or at least without any CHG/Iran Neolithic admixture(or very little). This is consistent with the notion of steppe mixing with Europe very early on, which subsequently formed, at least in part, the R1a dominant populations that spread onto the steppe after Yamnaya.
    that is the same way I see it
    these R1a tribes didn't have any CHG prior to their contacts with Yamna populations, but they had already mixed with EEF

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    Lithuanian is only 'conservative' in comparison with Slavic, which has more innovations due to its complex history and didn't retain the conservative declension system that is still seen in Lithuanian. Any inference about the origin however are likely to be false in this regard, since we know that Balto-Slavic must have come from a region that is nowadays Slavic. A similar dynamic can be seen in the Germanic branch, whose most archaic member Icelandic is quite far from the ultimate origin.

    Balto-Slavic itself isn't that archaic in the grand scheme. Mastasovic speculates that the relative paucity of foreign words is due to the proto-language being surrounded by other Indo-European branches.

    The best attested representative of a 'pure' Indo-European language is still Sanskrit, imho. Witzel states that only 3% of its vocabulary have an unresolved or foreign etymology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Nothing but noncense. Lithuanian has absolutely nothing to do with the Iranian. Greek & Armenian are closer to Iranian than Lithuanian, lmao what are you talking about???

    Proto-Iranian is much older that Corded Ware culture. Corded Ware is max 2900 BCE.

    Proto-Iranian is from 4000 BCE.






    http://www.geocurrents.info/cultural...ean-was-spoken
    So, in regards to the insert , where does Pontic-Greek come in ?...............as Armenian-Greek?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    I think you gentlemen should take a look at this spreadsheet by one of the very good posters on eurogenes. It includes both modern and ancient samples. The fact that the percentages for the ancient samples like Loschour, Karelia, etc. are so good gives me confidence that the percentages for samples like Corded Ware are probably pretty good as well.

    It was posted in a thread about an upcoming paper which may follow Krause in holding that CHG is the Indo-European cluster.

    This is why I said you need to look at formal stats as well.

    See:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1880196592


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think you gentlemen should take a look at this spreadsheet by one of the very good posters on eurogenes. It includes both modern and ancient samples. The fact that the percentages for the ancient samples like Loschour, Karelia, etc. are so good gives me confidence that the percentages for samples like Corded Ware are probably pretty good as well.

    It was posted in a thread about an upcoming paper which may follow Krause in holding that CHG is the Indo-European cluster.

    This is why I said you need to look at formal stats as well.

    See:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1880196592

    Angela,and what is your take on it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Angela,and what is your take on it?
    Do you mean whether I think CHG is the Indo-European marker?

    If that's the question, I'd say I'm not sure yet but it's possible. These are, for now, in both cases speculation, because the papers haven't come out yet. Neither has the long awaited Reich/Patterson paper on all those ancient Caucasus area genomes.

    I've been on record for a long time as saying that I think there was movement of people from south of the Caucasus north onto the steppe, whether directly over the mountains or by circling around the Caspian. That was in the days when certain bloggers were vociferous in maintaining that the Caucasus mountains were a total block on any "southern" migrations onto the steppe. Now we know there was such movement.

    Whether that ancestry is the Indo-European marker I don't know. It's a complicated question. For one thing, are we talking about genetically, culturally, linguistically? If we go by David Anthony, he says that the Indo-Europeans were the Yamnaya people of the steppe from the period around 3500 BC who had a certain genetic mix, a certain culture, and spoke a certain language. That would be a mixed EHG/CHG group, yes? Everyone else would be Indo-Europeanized, including Corded Ware perhaps.

    I've leaned that way for a long time, but in addition to the genes, it's clear that a lot of the culture came from south of the Caucasus too, most of it, in fact, I think, that or "Old Europe". Is it possible that those "CHG" migrants brought with them a language related to the "Anatolian" branch of the Indo-European languages. I think it's possible, but as I said, I need to read the actual papers, and see what linguists have to say about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    So, in regards to the insert , where does Pontic-Greek come in ?...............as Armenian-Greek?
    Pontic Greek theoretically descends from Koine, which in turn descends from Attic, just like Standard Modern Greek.
    Actually it has more archaic Ionic elements than the standard one. Pontic Greeks can be Greco-Persian genetically, with possible Thracian, 'Scythian', Caucasian etc elements.
    It would make sense historically. Their neighbors, may have influenced them because that happens everywhere.
    The language is as Greek as the standard one.

    Btw, @Goga I don't think that Greek and Albanian or Greek and Armenian can be grouped together. It's worse than grouping Germanic with Slavic.
    Is there a link of that study?

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    My god. Lol
    The biggest LMAO is when you stated that Corded Ware spoke some proto-Iranian, after proto-Iranian was separated from Indo-Iranian and continued to evolve differently from proto-Indic.

    It is YOU who try to link (proto-Germanic) Corded Ware to the Iranians/Aryans. The point is that Corded Ware has nothing to do with Iranians/Aryans. This was the biggest joke of 2016 and maybe even of 2017!!!

    Aryans/Iranians (my direct ancestors) predate Corded Ware by thousands of years. Corded Ware folks (and their modern descendants) are not Aryan/Iranian, were never Aryan and will never be Aryans. It is a huge LMAO to me when non-Iranians claim and want to be the so called Aryans, while they have nothing to do with the ancient Mitanni, Medes, Persians and Parthians...

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Btw, @Goga I don't think that Greek and Albanian or Greek and Armenian can be grouped together. It's worse than grouping Germanic with Slavic.
    Is there a link of that study?


    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/337/6097/957

    http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/08/...meland-in.html

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    So, in regards to the insert , where does Pontic-Greek come in ?...............as Armenian-Greek?
    Armenian exhibits more satemization than centumization. Armenian is closer to Indo-Iranian, than to Greek (centum language). But Armenian shares certain features only with Greek. I believe we should compare Armenian moslty to the ancient Anatolian languages.


    To my understanding the Pontic-Greek is mostly from proto-Greek with some Anatolian/Armenian influences.

    They found the MOST archaic Greek in NorthEAST Anatolia.





    "Against all odds: archaic Greek in a modern world

    An endangered Greek dialect spoken in Turkey has been identified by Dr Ioanna Sitaridou as a "linguistic goldmine" because of its closeness to a language spoken 2,000 years ago.
    "

    http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/a...a-modern-world

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    Think about it just a sec. Why did they found the MOST archaic Greek in NorthEAST Anatolia and NOT elsewhere...?

    http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/a...a-modern-world

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    All modern Greek dialects were called 'Romeika' (=Roman) by common people.
    So, the scientist who decided to use it for a single language or dialect shouldn't be considered a serious one.

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