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Thread: Corded Ware Culture admixture against Yamnayans

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Pontic Greek theoretically descends from Koine, which in turn descends from Attic, just like Standard Modern Greek.
    Actually it has more archaic Ionic elements than the standard one. Pontic Greeks can be Greco-Persian genetically, with possible Thracian, 'Scythian', Caucasian etc elements.
    It would make sense historically. Their neighbors, may have influenced them because that happens everywhere.
    The language is as Greek as the standard one.

    Btw, @Goga I don't think that Greek and Albanian or Greek and Armenian can be grouped together. It's worse than grouping Germanic with Slavic.
    Is there a link of that study?
    So, when did these Pontic Greeks arrive on the Eastern Black sea coast?

    Some DNA haplogroup state they are Ionion from Miletus travelled there.

    Can we assume that the Mycenaeans and their replacements, the Dorians spoke the same language and if not which one contributed to these pontic Greeks
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Lithuanian is only 'conservative' in comparison with Slavic, which has more innovations due to its complex history and didn't retain the conservative declension system that is still seen in Lithuanian. Any inference about the origin however are likely to be false in this regard, since we know that Balto-Slavic must have come from a region that is nowadays Slavic. A similar dynamic can be seen in the Germanic branch, whose most archaic member Icelandic is quite far from the ultimate origin.

    Balto-Slavic itself isn't that archaic in the grand scheme. Mastasovic speculates that the relative paucity of foreign words is due to the proto-language being surrounded by other Indo-European branches.

    The best attested representative of a 'pure' Indo-European language is still Sanskrit, imho. Witzel states that only 3% of its vocabulary have an unresolved or foreign etymology.
    They're both very unadulterated in comparison to other IE languages. I've heard many explanations as to why Lithuanian is so conservative, and they all seem like reaches to me. Just like Indo-Iranian is closer to Indic than Iranian, Balto-Slavic is more Baltic than Slavic. In other words Slavic is just a more bastardized version of Baltic, IMHO. And actually Rivers that have Baltic names encompass nearly the entire region of CW, which is not a coincidence.

    I would only disagree that Sanskrit is more conservative on the simple grounds that there are many words in Lithuanian that are the exact same word as the reconstructed PIE. This is probably overlooked in a more technical analysis, but it's hard to ignore. "Horse" for example if I had to recall one is the same in PIE as Lithuanian. This is amazing to me.

    Even more impressive is not only how far apart they are in distance, but how late Lithuanian was even written down that it would present as so conservative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    So, when did these Pontic Greeks arrive on the Eastern Black sea coast?

    Some DNA haplogroup state they are Ionion from Miletus travelled there.

    Can we assume that the Mycenaeans and their replacements, the Dorians spoke the same language and if not which one contributed to these pontic Greeks
    The Greeks supposedly entered what is now modern Greece around 2000BC. I don't know if that is correct. Mycenean Greece is dated around c. 1600 – c. 1100 BC
    The Dorian invasion isn't a fact, the semi-mythical events are labeled 'the return of the Heraclidae' in ancient sources. The interpretation is highly speculative.
    The Greeks begun to establish colonies after 900-800 BC, first in Eastern Mediterranean.
    The colonization of the Black Sea coasts happened later (not sure currently) but when Herodotus wrote his Histories there were Greeks in 'Scythia' (practically Ukraine),
    and some of them had left the coasts and settled among the natives (see: Gelonians, Budini) -who imo were Uralic people in the forest steppe, many scholars would disagree-.


    You can read about the Bosporan Kingdom. The Persian, Thracian and 'Scythian' elements are obvious.
    Also there was the medieval Empire of Trebizond after the sack of Constantinople on 1204 by crusaders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    that is the same way I see it
    these R1a tribes didn't have any CHG prior to their contacts with Yamna populations, but they had already mixed with EEF
    Yes, It looks obvious to me. Bell Beaker too, so R1b as well.

    Of course I'm looking for my early Italo-celtic departure as manifesting in Bell Beaker so I'm a bit biased, also looking for Tocharian in Afanasevo.

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    Huh?? There is a huge amount of post-Neolithic Iranian Plateau auDNA from the in the ancient (~ 5000 yo) samples from the Steppes, at least up to 30%...

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    F999942 Afanasievo-RISE509

    HarappaWorld

    1 NE-Euro 63.24
    2 Baloch 29.56
    3 Caucasian 2.03
    4 Mediterranean 1.89
    5 Beringian 1.45
    6 American 1.4
    7 W-African 0.44


    Dodecad K12b

    1 North_European 65.23
    2 Gedrosia 27.43
    3 Atlantic_Med 5.12
    4 Caucasus 1.84
    5 Sub_Saharan 0.2
    6 Siberian 0.08
    7 South_Asian 0.06
    8 Southeast_Asian 0.04


    M828784 Afanasievo-RISE511

    HarappaWorld

    1 NE-Euro 63.76
    2 Baloch 28.13
    3 American 3.56
    4 Caucasian 2.18
    5 Siberian 1.64
    6 W-African 0.72

    Dodecad K12b
    1 North_European 66.75
    2 Gedrosia 26.55
    3 Siberian 2.89
    4 Atlantic_Med 2.53
    5 Caucasus 0.74
    6 Sub_Saharan 0.54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    F999942 Afanasievo-RISE509

    HarappaWorld

    1 NE-Euro 63.24
    2 Baloch 29.56
    3 Caucasian 2.03
    4 Mediterranean 1.89
    5 Beringian 1.45
    6 American 1.4
    7 W-African 0.44


    Dodecad K12b

    1 North_European 65.23
    2 Gedrosia 27.43
    3 Atlantic_Med 5.12
    4 Caucasus 1.84
    5 Sub_Saharan 0.2
    6 Siberian 0.08
    7 South_Asian 0.06
    8 Southeast_Asian 0.04


    M828784 Afanasievo-RISE511

    HarappaWorld

    1 NE-Euro 63.76
    2 Baloch 28.13
    3 American 3.56
    4 Caucasian 2.18
    5 Siberian 1.64
    6 W-African 0.72

    Dodecad K12b
    1 North_European 66.75
    2 Gedrosia 26.55
    3 Siberian 2.89
    4 Atlantic_Med 2.53
    5 Caucasus 0.74
    6 Sub_Saharan 0.54
    Baloch is very ancient admixture and is not indicator of Steppe and Iran mixing in pre Neolithic times. Baloch is Central Asian paleolithic/Ice Age admixture. Baloch is present in Kostenki and Mal'ta, but not Caucasus. Samara has 0 Caucasian but is rich in Baloch. It is impossible for Iranian Neolithic or CHG to come to Steppe and leave no Caucasian but only Baloch. However, later Afansievo should have Baloch and Caucasian from Iranian Neolithic.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    M690970 Sintashta-RISE386

    HarappaWorld

    1 NE-Euro 57.8
    2 Mediterranean 19.92
    3 Baloch 18.5
    4 Caucasian 2.01
    5 W-African 1.2
    6 Beringian 0.56


    Dodecad K12b

    1 North_European 53.75
    2 Atlantic_Med 26.36
    3 Gedrosia 16.61
    4 Caucasus 1.86
    5 Sub_Saharan 0.9
    6 Siberian 0.42
    7 Northwest_African 0.09


    M277797 Sintashta-RISE395

    HarappaWorld

    1 NE-Euro 58.44
    2 Mediterranean 23.06
    3 Baloch 17.64
    4 W-African 0.82
    5 Pygmy 0.03

    Dodecad K12b

    1 North_European 54.97
    2 Atlantic_Med 29.58
    3 Gedrosia 14.62
    4 Sub_Saharan 0.66
    5 Caucasus 0.17


    Where all that Gedrosia/Baloch in the Steppes is from if it is NOT from R1a???


    Afanasievo is older than Sintashta, Afanasievo has no Med, while Sintashta has lots of it. This indicates that there was a migration from Europe into the Steppes AFTER the Indo-Europization of the Steppes. That means that Atlantic_Med / Mediterranean arrived in the Steppes after the collonizations of Neolithic Iranian folks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Baloch is very ancient admixture and is not indicator of Steppe and Iran mixing in pre Neolithic times. Baloch is Central Asian paleolithic/Ice Age admixture. Baloch is present in Kostenki and Mal'ta, but not Caucasus. Samara has 0 Caucasian but is rich in Baloch. It is impossible for Iranian Neolithic or CHG to come to Steppe and leave no Caucasian but only Baloch. However, later Afansievo should have Baloch and Caucasian from Iranian Neolithic.
    So if Gedrosia/Baloch in the Steppes is not from R1a, where is it from then? What I'm trying to say is that Gedrosia/Baloch is an integral (important) part of R1a AND R1b. Even Mal'ta R* fella was full of Gedrosia/Baloch. So Gedrosia/Baloch has to be connected to R1a & R1b.


    Afanasievo is older than Sintashta, Afanasievo has no Med, while Sintashta has lots of it. This is a great indication that there was a migration from Europe into the Steppes AFTER the Indo-Europization process of the Steppes. That means that Atlantic_Med / Mediterranean in the Steppes arrived much later after the collonizations of Neolithic Iranian folks.


    Afanasievo: 3300 to 2500 BC = 0%-1.89% Mediterranean / 2.53%-5.12% Atlantic_Med
    Sintashta : 2100 to 1800 BC = 19.92%- 23.06% Mediterranean / 26.36%-29.58% Atlantic_Med


    Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med in the Steppes arrived very late and much later after Gedrosia/Baloch. Gedrosia/Baloch in both Afanasievo and Sintashta has to be from R1a, nothing more, nothing less...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    F999942 Afanasievo-RISE509

    HarappaWorld

    1 NE-Euro 63.24
    2 Baloch 29.56
    3 Caucasian 2.03
    4 Mediterranean 1.89
    5 Beringian 1.45
    6 American 1.4
    7 W-African 0.44


    Dodecad K12b

    1 North_European 65.23
    2 Gedrosia 27.43
    3 Atlantic_Med 5.12
    4 Caucasus 1.84
    5 Sub_Saharan 0.2
    6 Siberian 0.08
    7 South_Asian 0.06
    8 Southeast_Asian 0.04


    M828784 Afanasievo-RISE511

    HarappaWorld

    1 NE-Euro 63.76
    2 Baloch 28.13
    3 American 3.56
    4 Caucasian 2.18
    5 Siberian 1.64
    6 W-African 0.72

    Dodecad K12b
    1 North_European 66.75
    2 Gedrosia 26.55
    3 Siberian 2.89
    4 Atlantic_Med 2.53
    5 Caucasus 0.74
    6 Sub_Saharan 0.54
    If they're going East I would expect CHG.

    The thing is Kotias shows up everywhere on the steppe, but Iran Neolithic does not. It's hard to make sense of everything with some comparisons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    If they're going East I would expect CHG.

    The thing is Kotias shows up everywhere on the steppe, but Iran Neolithic does not. It's hard to make sense of everything with some comparisons.
    CHG is not from the 'East'. CHG is from the Caucasus. Eastern Steppes (Afanasievo area) are more 'Eastern' than CHG/Caucasus.

    Neolithic Iranian folks were not exactly the same as CHG. Neolithic Iranians were more shifted toward the South Asia, while CHG from Caucasus was slightly more Northern. The connection between those 2 has to be ANE, though.

    It is even possible that R* or R2*/R1* is actually from the Northern India. Iranian Neolithic was mostly Gedrosia/Baloch, but who is saying that Gedrosia/Baloch is native to Iran? Maybe that Iranian Neolithic farmer of Zagros Mountains (Western parts of the Iranian Plateau) was actually an immigrant from SouthCentral Asia/Northern India?

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    Samara indeed has "Caucasian" in some formal stats analyses.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    CHG is not from the 'East'. CHG is from the Caucasus. Eastern Steppes (Afanasievo area) are more 'Eastern' than CHG/Caucasus.

    Neolithic Iranian folks were not exactly the same as CHG. Neolithic Iranians were more shifted toward the South Asia, while CHG from Caucasus was slightly more Northern. The connection between those 2 has to be ANE, though.

    It is even possible that R* or R2*/R1* is actually from the Northern India. Iranian Neolithic was mostly Gedrosia/Baloch, but who is saying that Gedrosia/Baloch is native to Iran? Maybe that Iranian Neolithic farmer of Zagros Mountains (Western parts of the Iranian Plateau) was actually an immigrant from SouthCentral Asia/Northern India?
    I think there was Iran Neolithic gene flow from the East around the Caspian, but more importantly there was no EEF. That is all I mean.

    How MA-1 relates to CHG and Iran Neolithic would help explain much. This is sort of what I was getting at a while back when I said that "Teal" appeared to predate any contact with the Caucuses, but we see Karelia in Iran Hotu and absolutely not a shred of "Teal" in Karelia. There's no denying that there was gene flow from Iran to the Steppe as early as the Mesolithic BUT. We also see Kotias in Samara HG and not in Karelia. Part of me does wonder if the "Teal" showing up in some comparisons has been on the steppe since MA-1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Samara indeed has "Caucasian" in some formal stats analyses.
    Yep, and Hotu has some "steppe" in some stats, but in others it looks different.

    The thing about admixture is that you get a broader picture, which is more useful in some models we're all trying to fit. Going off that the "Teal" disappears in some of the cultures following or contemporary with Yamnaya.

    I don't know. What I do know is that Tocharian, Celto-Italic, and Anatolian HAD to have left PIE before Indic.

    Goddamit
    Last edited by holderlin; 23-12-16 at 06:45. Reason: Added goddamit in a Southern American Accent

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    The studies show all Yamnaya at around 50/50 EHG/CHG. Many amateur calculators too. The lowest estimates of CHG I have seen were around ~38%. 20% is not even half of it. Any calculator that calculates 80% EHG for Yamnaya. Is extremely broken and uses rather modern populations as refference. the 20% "CHG" look actually more like the modern Caucasus component you get in the higher Ks and which is based on modern pops. K14/15 is splitten too far down to components. For Yamnaya K4-K10 make sense. More components are uneccessary.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    So if Gedrosia/Baloch in the Steppes is not from R1a, where is it from then? What I'm trying to say is that Gedrosia/Baloch is an integral (important) part of R1a AND R1b. Even Mal'ta R* fella was full of Gedrosia/Baloch. So Gedrosia/Baloch has to be connected to R1a & R1b.
    What haplogroup was Kostenki?
    Kostenki
    Population
    S-Indian 13.18
    Baloch 12.49
    Caucasian -
    NE-Euro 29.02
    SE-Asian 4.28
    Siberian 1.75
    NE-Asian -
    Papuan 5.16
    American 3.32
    Beringian 1.43
    Mediterranean 18.76
    SW-Asian 5.89
    San 1.24
    E-African 1.82
    Pygmy 0.92
    W-African 0.73


    Afanasievo is older than Sintashta, Afanasievo has no Med, while Sintashta has lots of it. This is a great indication that there was a migration from Europe into the Steppes AFTER the Indo-Europization process of the Steppes. That means that Atlantic_Med / Mediterranean in the Steppes arrived much later after the collonizations of Neolithic Iranian folks.
    Sintashta really looks like a migration directly from Europe, like Corded Ware from Estonia. Or perhaps both migrated from North Yamnaya, one went West, the other East? Though this high Mediterranean points to European Neolithic Farmer or WHG. So most likely Sintashta came from Estonia.
    Corded Estonia Sintashta
    Population Population
    S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch 14.27 Baloch 17.64
    Caucasian - Caucasian -
    NE-Euro 59.09 NE-Euro 58.44
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian 0.8 Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American -
    Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 25.26 Mediterranean 23.06
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San -
    E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.5 W-African 0.82



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

    Afanasievo: 3300 to 2500 BC = 0%-1.89% Mediterranean / 2.53%-5.12% Atlantic_Med
    Sintashta : 2100 to 1800 BC = 19.92%- 23.06% Mediterranean / 26.36%-29.58% Atlantic_Med
    Afansievo is more like Yamnaya
    Afansievo Rise511 Poltavka, mid Yamnaya
    Population Population
    S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch 28.13 Baloch 30.06
    Caucasian 2.18 Caucasian 7.57
    NE-Euro 63.76 NE-Euro 59.14
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian 1.64 Siberian 0.99
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan -
    American 3.56 American 2.21
    Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean - Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San -
    E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.72 W-African -


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The studies show all Yamnaya at around 50/50 EHG/CHG. Many amateur calculators too. The lowest estimates of CHG I have seen were around ~38%. 20% is not even half of it. Any calculator that calculates 80% EHG for Yamnaya. Is extremely broken and uses rather modern populations as refference. the 20% "CHG" look actually more like the modern Caucasus component you get in the higher Ks and which is based on modern pops. K14/15 is splitten too far down to components. For Yamnaya K4-K10 make sense. More components are uneccessary.
    CHG, Satsurblia georgia 13kya Samara HG Poltavka, mid Yamnaya Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years
    Population Population Population Population
    S-Indian 0.62 S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 6.13
    Baloch 36.63 Baloch 14.33 Baloch 30.06 Baloch 62.71
    Caucasian 54.15 Caucasian - Caucasian 7.57 Caucasian 24.97
    NE-Euro 3.84 NE-Euro 75.62 NE-Euro 59.14 NE-Euro -
    SE-Asian 0.59 SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian 0.77 Siberian - Siberian 0.99 Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.15 Papuan - Papuan - Papuan 0.35
    American - American 9.62 American 2.21 American -
    Beringian - Beringian 0.15 Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean - Mediterranean - Mediterranean - Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian 3.88
    San - San - San - San 0.18
    E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy 0.25 Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 3.01 W-African 0.2 W-African - W-African 1.78

    Why there is so little Caucasian admixture in Yamnaya, if half of CHG genome should be in it? By Harappa admixtures Yamnaya could be modeled as 75% Samara HG - 25% Iranian Neolithic.

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    Mal'ta was R* and had some Baloch at 24% but overall he was NE-Euro at 40% and 20% American, and missing totally Caucasian admixture. Iranian Neolithic, on other hand was almost made of two sources, Baloch and Caucasian. There was not even a smidge of NE-Euro or American in Iranian Neolithic, to suggest any ancestry coming from people like Mal'ta boy. Both were related through Baloch and S-Indian common ancestor in the far far past, but otherwise quite different people. It is unlikely but still possible that Baloch could have been a source of R or P, but definitely not R1a or R1b.

    Mal'ta Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years
    Population Population
    S-Indian 10.13 S-Indian 6.13
    Baloch 24.09 Baloch 62.71
    Caucasian - Caucasian 24.97
    NE-Euro 40.14 NE-Euro -
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.7 Papuan 0.35
    American 17.71 American -
    Beringian 6.74 Beringian -
    Mediterranean - Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian 3.88
    San 0.3 San 0.18
    E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy 0.19 Pygmy -
    W-African - W-African 1.78

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    Sintashta looks like pure CW Estonian, Andronovo is later and shows some mixing with locals. Less Med, and more Baloch, American, Beringian and Siberian.
    Corded Estonia Sintashta Andronovo
    Population Population Population
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 0.54
    Baloch 14.27 Baloch 17.64 Baloch 21.23
    Caucasian - Caucasian - Caucasian 2.4
    NE-Euro 59.09 NE-Euro 58.44 NE-Euro 56.39
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian 0.8 Siberian - Siberian 1.93
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American - American 1.05
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian 1.22
    Mediterranean 25.26 Mediterranean 23.06 Mediterranean 14.37
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy 0.06
    W-African 0.5 W-African 0.82 W-African 0.81

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    They're both very unadulterated in comparison to other IE languages. I've heard many explanations as to why Lithuanian is so conservative, and they all seem like reaches to me. Just like Indo-Iranian is closer to Indic than Iranian, Balto-Slavic is more Baltic than Slavic. In other words Slavic is just a more bastardized version of Baltic, IMHO. And actually Rivers that have Baltic names encompass nearly the entire region of CW, which is not a coincidence.
    A more reasonable conclusion would be that Lithuanian resembles more closely the Balto-Slavic root than do the Slavic languages.

    I would only disagree that Sanskrit is more conservative on the simple grounds that there are many words in Lithuanian that are the exact same word as the reconstructed PIE. This is probably overlooked in a more technical analysis, but it's hard to ignore. "Horse" for example if I had to recall one is the same in PIE as Lithuanian. This is amazing to me.
    Lithuanian 'arklys' ('horse') doesn't derive from PIE '*hek'wos'. There's Lithuanian 'ašva ' ('mare'), but it's not exactly the same.

    Even more impressive is not only how far apart they are in distance, but how late Lithuanian was even written down that it would present as so conservative.


    In many ways Lithuanian isn't very conservative at all, however. Just look at, for example, the verbal morphology and compare it with ancient Greek or Sanskrit.
    Last edited by MarkoZ; 24-12-16 at 00:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Mal'ta was R* and had some Baloch at 24% but overall he was NE-Euro at 40% and 20% American, and missing totally Caucasian admixture. Iranian Neolithic, on other hand was almost made of two sources, Baloch and Caucasian. There was not even a smidge of NE-Euro or American in Iranian Neolithic, to suggest any ancestry coming from people like Mal'ta boy. Both were related through Baloch and S-Indian common ancestor in the far far past, but otherwise quite different people. It is unlikely but still possible that Baloch could have been a source of R or P, but definitely not R1a or R1b.

    Mal'ta Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years
    Population Population
    S-Indian 10.13 S-Indian 6.13
    Baloch 24.09 Baloch 62.71
    Caucasian - Caucasian 24.97
    NE-Euro 40.14 NE-Euro -
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.7 Papuan 0.35
    American 17.71 American -
    Beringian 6.74 Beringian -
    Mediterranean - Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian - SW-Asian 3.88
    San 0.3 San 0.18
    E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy 0.19 Pygmy -
    W-African - W-African 1.78
    Mal'ta was R*. But he was not really ancestral to R1* or R2*. Mal'ta was obviously 'mixed'. We can even call Ma'ta R3* or something. He belonged to a different subtype of R*, than ancestors of R2* & R1*. R1* (and therefore R1a* & R1b*) evolved from a different source and different subtype of R* than Mal'ta...

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Evidence? There is mixing all over the place at the CT/Steppe interface. How bout Sredny Stog and Bug Dniester? And I don't think we got the samples we would need to really investigate this. I know the graves are a complete mixed bag physically with Steppe and Mediterranean types. I think we only got sample from the Yamnaya horizon above Dnieper Donets, which actually gave some indication of this process with an I2
    Ok I understand that I was confuses. You was explaining a western expansion of Yamnayans... in the steppe itself. Yamna spreads all the Pontic and Caspian steppe so from my point of view western was west of tge Carpathians.

    By the way it's that Yanmayists have not found a name for the steppe culture after Khavalinsk and before Yamna? ( Or it's that there was nothing there to name? :)
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Sintashta really looks like a migration directly from Europe, like Corded Ware from Estonia. Or perhaps both migrated from North Yamnaya, one went West, the other East? Though this high Mediterranean points to European Neolithic Farmer or WHG. So most likely Sintashta came from Estonia.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture
    I'm not sure where Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med in the Steppes is from, but it is still possible that Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med in the Steppes arrived at the same time when it arrive in the Baltic region. Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med auDNA is not really that old in the Balitc region. But I don't think that there was a migration from NorthEastern Europe into Central Asia, since there are no 'European' Y-DNA haplogroups in Central Asia. There is no I1, I2a, R1a-Z282 etc. in Central Asia. Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med in the Steppes has to be from a different source. Maybe a second invasion (wave) of LATE Yamnaya folks into Central Asia thousand years later???

    There was actually a miration from Central Asia into the Baltics, since they found some ancient Y-DNA hg. J1 in Karelia...

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    Btw, EAST Iranic BMAC culture is OLDER than Sintashta

    BMAC : 2300 to 1700 BC
    Sintashta : 2100 to 1800 BC
    Andronovo : 2000 to 900

    EAST Iranian BMAC culture can't be from Sintashta. It is even chronologically impossible that BMAC is from Sintashta/Andronovo. Even BEFORE Sintashta there was already a split between WEST and EAST Iranians. Ancient Iranians (proto-Medes) from Western Parts of the Iranian Plateau migrated into South Central Asia and evolved into the East Iranian who became known as BMAC folks.

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    After the Neolithic there seems to be a flow from Anatolia and Caucasus or a region close to it to Iran, not from the steppes.


    Population Loschbour:Loschbour Barcin_Neolithic:I0707 Esperstedt_MN:I0172 Karelia_HG Kotias:KK1 Nganasan Mozabite Iran_Neolithic:I1290 Israel_Natufian:I0861 Paniya Dai Distance
    Iran_Neolithic:WC1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 97,3 2 0 0,7 0,005367
    Iran_Neolithic:I1945 0 0 0 2,8 0 0 0 92,1 0 5,1 0 0,011044
    Iran_Neolithic:I1290 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 100 0 0 0 0
    Iran_Late_Neolithic:I1671 0 0,9 0 0 15,3 0 0 75,8 7,1 0,9 0 0,005985
    Iran_Hotu:I1293 0 0 0 13,4 0 0 0 84,1 0 2,5 0 0,011722
    Iran_Chalcolithic:I1674 0 12,7 0 0 27,2 0 0 39,9 20,2 0 0 0,006394
    Iran_Chalcolithic:I1670 0 16,2 0 0 28,1 1,3 0 39,4 15 0 0 0,006489
    Iran_Chalcolithic:I1665 0 0,6 0 0 43,2 0 0 24,9 31,3 0 0 0,009529
    Iran_Chalcolithic:I1662 0 19,3 0 0 19,3 0 0 49 12,4 0 0 0,007656
    Iran_Chalcolithic:I1661 0 24,7 0 0 16,1 0 0 56,7 2,5 0 0 0,006435
    So, if the IE languages weren't already there in the Neolithic*, they could have been brought there by a group of people who had Barcin, Kotias admixture. Even Natufian increases.

    *Most would say they weren't but I am mentioning it in order to be 100% clear.

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