Corded Ware Culture admixture against Yamnayans

[Goga]

F999942

Afanasievo-RISE509

HarappaWorld

1	NE-Euro	63.24
2	Baloch	29.56
3	Caucasian	2.03
4	Mediterranean	1.89
5	Beringian	1.45
6	American	1.4
7	W-African	0.44

Dodecad K12b

1	North_European	65.23
2	Gedrosia	27.43
3	Atlantic_Med	5.12
4	Caucasus	1.84
5	Sub_Saharan	0.2
6	Siberian	0.08
7	South_Asian	0.06
8	Southeast_Asian	0.04

M828784

Afanasievo-RISE511

HarappaWorld

1	NE-Euro	63.76
2	Baloch	28.13
3	American	3.56
4	Caucasian	2.18
5	Siberian	1.64
6	W-African	0.72

Dodecad K12b

1	North_European	66.75
2	Gedrosia	26.55
3	Siberian	2.89
4	Atlantic_Med	2.53
5	Caucasus	0.74
6	Sub_Saharan	0.54

 

[LeBrok]

F999942

Afanasievo-RISE509

HarappaWorld

1	NE-Euro	63.24
2	Baloch	29.56
3	Caucasian	2.03
4	Mediterranean	1.89
5	Beringian	1.45
6	American	1.4
7	W-African	0.44

Dodecad K12b

1	North_European	65.23
2	Gedrosia	27.43
3	Atlantic_Med	5.12
4	Caucasus	1.84
5	Sub_Saharan	0.2
6	Siberian	0.08
7	South_Asian	0.06
8	Southeast_Asian	0.04

M828784

Afanasievo-RISE511

HarappaWorld

1	NE-Euro	63.76
2	Baloch	28.13
3	American	3.56
4	Caucasian	2.18
5	Siberian	1.64
6	W-African	0.72

Dodecad K12b

1	North_European	66.75
2	Gedrosia	26.55
3	Siberian	2.89
4	Atlantic_Med	2.53
5	Caucasus	0.74
6	Sub_Saharan	0.54

Baloch is very ancient admixture and is not indicator of Steppe and Iran mixing in pre Neolithic times. Baloch is Central Asian paleolithic/Ice Age admixture. Baloch is present in Kostenki and Mal'ta, but not Caucasus. Samara has 0 Caucasian but is rich in Baloch. It is impossible for Iranian Neolithic or CHG to come to Steppe and leave no Caucasian but only Baloch. However, later Afansievo should have Baloch and Caucasian from Iranian Neolithic.

 

[Goga]

M690970

Sintashta-RISE386

HarappaWorld

1	NE-Euro	57.8
2	Mediterranean	19.92
3	Baloch	18.5
4	Caucasian	2.01
5	W-African	1.2
6	Beringian	0.56

Dodecad K12b

1	North_European	53.75
2	Atlantic_Med	26.36
3	Gedrosia	16.61
4	Caucasus	1.86
5	Sub_Saharan	0.9
6	Siberian	0.42
7	Northwest_African	0.09

M277797

Sintashta-RISE395

HarappaWorld

1	NE-Euro	58.44
2	Mediterranean	23.06
3	Baloch	17.64
4	W-African	0.82
5	Pygmy	0.03

Dodecad K12b

1	North_European	54.97
2	Atlantic_Med	29.58
3	Gedrosia	14.62
4	Sub_Saharan	0.66
5	Caucasus	0.17

Where all that Gedrosia/Baloch in the Steppes is from if it is NOT from R1a???


Afanasievo is older than Sintashta, Afanasievo has no Med, while Sintashta has lots of it. This indicates that there was a migration from Europe into the Steppes AFTER the Indo-Europization of the Steppes. That means that Atlantic_Med / Mediterranean arrived in the Steppes after the collonizations of Neolithic Iranian folks.

 

[Goga]

Baloch is very ancient admixture and is not indicator of Steppe and Iran mixing in pre Neolithic times. Baloch is Central Asian paleolithic/Ice Age admixture. Baloch is present in Kostenki and Mal'ta, but not Caucasus. Samara has 0 Caucasian but is rich in Baloch. It is impossible for Iranian Neolithic or CHG to come to Steppe and leave no Caucasian but only Baloch. However, later Afansievo should have Baloch and Caucasian from Iranian Neolithic.

So if Gedrosia/Baloch in the Steppes is not from R1a, where is it from then? What I'm trying to say is that Gedrosia/Baloch is an integral (important) part of R1a AND R1b. Even Mal'ta R* fella was full of Gedrosia/Baloch. So Gedrosia/Baloch has to be connected to R1a & R1b.


Afanasievo is older than Sintashta, Afanasievo has no Med, while Sintashta has lots of it. This is a great indication that there was a migration from Europe into the Steppes AFTER the Indo-Europization process of the Steppes. That means that Atlantic_Med / Mediterranean in the Steppes arrived much later after the collonizations of Neolithic Iranian folks.


Afanasievo: 3300 to 2500 BC = 0%-1.89% Mediterranean / 2.53%-5.12% Atlantic_Med
Sintashta : 2100 to 1800 BC = 19.92%- 23.06% Mediterranean / 26.36%-29.58% Atlantic_Med


Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med in the Steppes arrived very late and much later after Gedrosia/Baloch. Gedrosia/Baloch in both Afanasievo and Sintashta has to be from R1a, nothing more, nothing less...

 

[holderlin]

F999942

Afanasievo-RISE509

HarappaWorld

1	NE-Euro	63.24
2	Baloch	29.56
3	Caucasian	2.03
4	Mediterranean	1.89
5	Beringian	1.45
6	American	1.4
7	W-African	0.44

Dodecad K12b

1	North_European	65.23
2	Gedrosia	27.43
3	Atlantic_Med	5.12
4	Caucasus	1.84
5	Sub_Saharan	0.2
6	Siberian	0.08
7	South_Asian	0.06
8	Southeast_Asian	0.04

M828784

Afanasievo-RISE511

HarappaWorld

1	NE-Euro	63.76
2	Baloch	28.13
3	American	3.56
4	Caucasian	2.18
5	Siberian	1.64
6	W-African	0.72

Dodecad K12b

1	North_European	66.75
2	Gedrosia	26.55
3	Siberian	2.89
4	Atlantic_Med	2.53
5	Caucasus	0.74
6	Sub_Saharan	0.54

If they're going East I would expect CHG.

The thing is Kotias shows up everywhere on the steppe, but Iran Neolithic does not. It's hard to make sense of everything with some comparisons.

 

[Goga]

If they're going East I would expect CHG.

The thing is Kotias shows up everywhere on the steppe, but Iran Neolithic does not. It's hard to make sense of everything with some comparisons.

CHG is not from the 'East'. CHG is from the Caucasus. Eastern Steppes (Afanasievo area) are more 'Eastern' than CHG/Caucasus.

Neolithic Iranian folks were not exactly the same as CHG. Neolithic Iranians were more shifted toward the South Asia, while CHG from Caucasus was slightly more Northern. The connection between those 2 has to be ANE, though.

It is even possible that R* or R2*/R1* is actually from the Northern India. Iranian Neolithic was mostly Gedrosia/Baloch, but who is saying that Gedrosia/Baloch is native to Iran? Maybe that Iranian Neolithic farmer of Zagros Mountains (Western parts of the Iranian Plateau) was actually an immigrant from SouthCentral Asia/Northern India?

 

[Angela]

Samara indeed has "Caucasian" in some formal stats analyses.

 

[holderlin]

CHG is not from the 'East'. CHG is from the Caucasus. Eastern Steppes (Afanasievo area) are more 'Eastern' than CHG/Caucasus.

Neolithic Iranian folks were not exactly the same as CHG. Neolithic Iranians were more shifted toward the South Asia, while CHG from Caucasus was slightly more Northern. The connection between those 2 has to be ANE, though.

It is even possible that R* or R2*/R1* is actually from the Northern India. Iranian Neolithic was mostly Gedrosia/Baloch, but who is saying that Gedrosia/Baloch is native to Iran? Maybe that Iranian Neolithic farmer of Zagros Mountains (Western parts of the Iranian Plateau) was actually an immigrant from SouthCentral Asia/Northern India?

I think there was Iran Neolithic gene flow from the East around the Caspian, but more importantly there was no EEF. That is all I mean.

How MA-1 relates to CHG and Iran Neolithic would help explain much. This is sort of what I was getting at a while back when I said that "Teal" appeared to predate any contact with the Caucuses, but we see Karelia in Iran Hotu and absolutely not a shred of "Teal" in Karelia. There's no denying that there was gene flow from Iran to the Steppe as early as the Mesolithic BUT. We also see Kotias in Samara HG and not in Karelia. Part of me does wonder if the "Teal" showing up in some comparisons has been on the steppe since MA-1.

 

[holderlin]

Samara indeed has "Caucasian" in some formal stats analyses.

Yep, and Hotu has some "steppe" in some stats, but in others it looks different.

The thing about admixture is that you get a broader picture, which is more useful in some models we're all trying to fit. Going off that the "Teal" disappears in some of the cultures following or contemporary with Yamnaya.

I don't know. What I do know is that Tocharian, Celto-Italic, and Anatolian HAD to have left PIE before Indic.

Goddamit

 

[Alan]

The studies show all Yamnaya at around 50/50 EHG/CHG. Many amateur calculators too. The lowest estimates of CHG I have seen were around ~38%. 20% is not even half of it. Any calculator that calculates 80% EHG for Yamnaya. Is extremely broken and uses rather modern populations as refference. the 20% "CHG" look actually more like the modern Caucasus component you get in the higher Ks and which is based on modern pops. K14/15 is splitten too far down to components. For Yamnaya K4-K10 make sense. More components are uneccessary.

 

[LeBrok]

So if Gedrosia/Baloch in the Steppes is not from R1a, where is it from then? What I'm trying to say is that Gedrosia/Baloch is an integral (important) part of R1a AND R1b. Even Mal'ta R* fella was full of Gedrosia/Baloch. So Gedrosia/Baloch has to be connected to R1a & R1b.

What haplogroup was Kostenki?

Kostenki
Population
S-Indian	13.18
Baloch	12.49
Caucasian	-
NE-Euro	29.02
SE-Asian	4.28
Siberian	1.75
NE-Asian	-
Papuan	5.16
American	3.32
Beringian	1.43
Mediterranean	18.76
SW-Asian	5.89
San	1.24
E-African	1.82
Pygmy	0.92
W-African	0.73

Afanasievo is older than Sintashta, Afanasievo has no Med, while Sintashta has lots of it. This is a great indication that there was a migration from Europe into the Steppes AFTER the Indo-Europization process of the Steppes. That means that Atlantic_Med / Mediterranean in the Steppes arrived much later after the collonizations of Neolithic Iranian folks.

Sintashta really looks like a migration directly from Europe, like Corded Ware from Estonia. Or perhaps both migrated from North Yamnaya, one went West, the other East? Though this high Mediterranean points to European Neolithic Farmer or WHG. So most likely Sintashta came from Estonia.

Corded Estonia			Sintashta
Population			Population
S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-
Baloch	14.27		Baloch	17.64
Caucasian	-		Caucasian	-
NE-Euro	59.09		NE-Euro	58.44
SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-
Siberian	0.8		Siberian	-
NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-
Papuan	-		Papuan	-
American	-		American	-
Beringian	-		Beringian	-
Mediterranean	25.26		Mediterranean	23.06
SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	-
San	-		San	-
E-African	-		E-African	-
Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-
W-African	0.5		W-African	0.82

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

Afanasievo: 3300 to 2500 BC = 0%-1.89% Mediterranean / 2.53%-5.12% Atlantic_Med
Sintashta : 2100 to 1800 BC = 19.92%- 23.06% Mediterranean / 26.36%-29.58% Atlantic_Med

Afansievo is more like Yamnaya

Afansievo Rise511			Poltavka, mid Yamnaya
Population			Population
S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-
Baloch	28.13		Baloch	30.06
Caucasian	2.18		Caucasian	7.57
NE-Euro	63.76		NE-Euro	59.14
SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-
Siberian	1.64		Siberian	0.99
NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-
Papuan	-		Papuan	-
American	3.56		American	2.21
Beringian	-		Beringian	-
Mediterranean	-		Mediterranean	-
SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	-
San	-		San	-
E-African	-		E-African	-
Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-
W-African	0.72		W-African	-

 

[LeBrok]

The studies show all Yamnaya at around 50/50 EHG/CHG. Many amateur calculators too. The lowest estimates of CHG I have seen were around ~38%. 20% is not even half of it. Any calculator that calculates 80% EHG for Yamnaya. Is extremely broken and uses rather modern populations as refference. the 20% "CHG" look actually more like the modern Caucasus component you get in the higher Ks and which is based on modern pops. K14/15 is splitten too far down to components. For Yamnaya K4-K10 make sense. More components are uneccessary.

CHG, Satsurblia georgia 13kya			Samara HG			Poltavka, mid Yamnaya			Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years
Population			Population			Population			Population
S-Indian	0.62		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	6.13
Baloch	36.63		Baloch	14.33		Baloch	30.06		Baloch	62.71
Caucasian	54.15		Caucasian	-		Caucasian	7.57		Caucasian	24.97
NE-Euro	3.84		NE-Euro	75.62		NE-Euro	59.14		NE-Euro	-
SE-Asian	0.59		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-
Siberian	0.77		Siberian	-		Siberian	0.99		Siberian	-
NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-
Papuan	0.15		Papuan	-		Papuan	-		Papuan	0.35
American	-		American	9.62		American	2.21		American	-
Beringian	-		Beringian	0.15		Beringian	-		Beringian	-
Mediterranean	-		Mediterranean	-		Mediterranean	-		Mediterranean	-
SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	3.88
San	-		San	-		San	-		San	0.18
E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-
Pygmy	0.25		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-
W-African	3.01		W-African	0.2		W-African	-		W-African	1.78

Why there is so little Caucasian admixture in Yamnaya, if half of CHG genome should be in it? By Harappa admixtures Yamnaya could be modeled as 75% Samara HG - 25% Iranian Neolithic.

 

[LeBrok]

Mal'ta was R* and had some Baloch at 24% but overall he was NE-Euro at 40% and 20% American, and missing totally Caucasian admixture. Iranian Neolithic, on other hand was almost made of two sources, Baloch and Caucasian. There was not even a smidge of NE-Euro or American in Iranian Neolithic, to suggest any ancestry coming from people like Mal'ta boy. Both were related through Baloch and S-Indian common ancestor in the far far past, but otherwise quite different people. It is unlikely but still possible that Baloch could have been a source of R or P, but definitely not R1a or R1b.

Mal'ta			Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years
Population			Population
S-Indian	10.13		S-Indian	6.13
Baloch	24.09		Baloch	62.71
Caucasian	-		Caucasian	24.97
NE-Euro	40.14		NE-Euro	-
SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-
Siberian	-		Siberian	-
NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-
Papuan	0.7		Papuan	0.35
American	17.71		American	-
Beringian	6.74		Beringian	-
Mediterranean	-		Mediterranean	-
SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	3.88
San	0.3		San	0.18
E-African	-		E-African	-
Pygmy	0.19		Pygmy	-
W-African	-		W-African	1.78

 

[LeBrok]

Sintashta looks like pure CW Estonian, Andronovo is later and shows some mixing with locals. Less Med, and more Baloch, American, Beringian and Siberian.

Corded Estonia			Sintashta			Andronovo
Population			Population			Population
S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	0.54
Baloch	14.27		Baloch	17.64		Baloch	21.23
Caucasian	-		Caucasian	-		Caucasian	2.4
NE-Euro	59.09		NE-Euro	58.44		NE-Euro	56.39
SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-
Siberian	0.8		Siberian	-		Siberian	1.93
NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-
Papuan	-		Papuan	-		Papuan	-
American	-		American	-		American	1.05
Beringian	-		Beringian	-		Beringian	1.22
Mediterranean	25.26		Mediterranean	23.06		Mediterranean	14.37
SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	-
San	-		San	-		San	-
E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-
Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	0.06
W-African	0.5		W-African	0.82		W-African	0.81

 

[MarkoZ]

They're both very unadulterated in comparison to other IE languages. I've heard many explanations as to why Lithuanian is so conservative, and they all seem like reaches to me. Just like Indo-Iranian is closer to Indic than Iranian, Balto-Slavic is more Baltic than Slavic. In other words Slavic is just a more bastardized version of Baltic, IMHO. And actually Rivers that have Baltic names encompass nearly the entire region of CW, which is not a coincidence.

A more reasonable conclusion would be that Lithuanian resembles more closely the Balto-Slavic root than do the Slavic languages.

I would only disagree that Sanskrit is more conservative on the simple grounds that there are many words in Lithuanian that are the exact same word as the reconstructed PIE. This is probably overlooked in a more technical analysis, but it's hard to ignore. "Horse" for example if I had to recall one is the same in PIE as Lithuanian. This is amazing to me.

Lithuanian 'arklys' ('horse') doesn't derive from PIE '*hek'wos'. There's Lithuanian 'ašva ' ('mare'), but it's not exactly the same.

Even more impressive is not only how far apart they are in distance, but how late Lithuanian was even written down that it would present as so conservative.

In many ways Lithuanian isn't very conservative at all, however. Just look at, for example, the verbal morphology and compare it with ancient Greek or Sanskrit.

 

[Goga]

Mal'ta was R* and had some Baloch at 24% but overall he was NE-Euro at 40% and 20% American, and missing totally Caucasian admixture. Iranian Neolithic, on other hand was almost made of two sources, Baloch and Caucasian. There was not even a smidge of NE-Euro or American in Iranian Neolithic, to suggest any ancestry coming from people like Mal'ta boy. Both were related through Baloch and S-Indian common ancestor in the far far past, but otherwise quite different people. It is unlikely but still possible that Baloch could have been a source of R or P, but definitely not R1a or R1b.

Mal'ta			Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years
Population			Population
S-Indian	10.13		S-Indian	6.13
Baloch	24.09		Baloch	62.71
Caucasian	-		Caucasian	24.97
NE-Euro	40.14		NE-Euro	-
SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-
Siberian	-		Siberian	-
NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-
Papuan	0.7		Papuan	0.35
American	17.71		American	-
Beringian	6.74		Beringian	-
Mediterranean	-		Mediterranean	-
SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	3.88
San	0.3		San	0.18
E-African	-		E-African	-
Pygmy	0.19		Pygmy	-
W-African	-		W-African	1.78

Mal'ta was R*. But he was not really ancestral to R1* or R2*. Mal'ta was obviously 'mixed'. We can even call Ma'ta R3* or something. He belonged to a different subtype of R*, than ancestors of R2* & R1*. R1* (and therefore R1a* & R1b*) evolved from a different source and different subtype of R* than Mal'ta...

 

[berun]

Evidence? There is mixing all over the place at the CT/Steppe interface. How bout Sredny Stog and Bug Dniester? And I don't think we got the samples we would need to really investigate this. I know the graves are a complete mixed bag physically with Steppe and Mediterranean types. I think we only got sample from the Yamnaya horizon above Dnieper Donets, which actually gave some indication of this process with an I2

Ok I understand that I was confuses. You was explaining a western expansion of Yamnayans... in the steppe itself. Yamna spreads all the Pontic and Caspian steppe so from my point of view western was west of tge Carpathians.

By the way it's that Yanmayists have not found a name for the steppe culture after Khavalinsk and before Yamna? ( Or it's that there was nothing there to name?

 

[Goga]

Sintashta really looks like a migration directly from Europe, like Corded Ware from Estonia. Or perhaps both migrated from North Yamnaya, one went West, the other East? Though this high Mediterranean points to European Neolithic Farmer or WHG. So most likely Sintashta came from Estonia.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

I'm not sure where Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med in the Steppes is from, but it is still possible that Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med in the Steppes arrived at the same time when it arrive in the Baltic region. Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med auDNA is not really that old in the Balitc region. But I don't think that there was a migration from NorthEastern Europe into Central Asia, since there are no 'European' Y-DNA haplogroups in Central Asia. There is no I1, I2a, R1a-Z282 etc. in Central Asia. Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med in the Steppes has to be from a different source. Maybe a second invasion (wave) of LATE Yamnaya folks into Central Asia thousand years later???

There was actually a miration from Central Asia into the Baltics, since they found some ancient Y-DNA hg. J1 in Karelia...

 

[Goga]

Btw, EAST Iranic BMAC culture is OLDER than Sintashta

BMAC : 2300 to 1700 BC
Sintashta : 2100 to 1800 BC
Andronovo : 2000 to 900

EAST Iranian BMAC culture can't be from Sintashta. It is even chronologically impossible that BMAC is from Sintashta/Andronovo. Even BEFORE Sintashta there was already a split between WEST and EAST Iranians. Ancient Iranians (proto-Medes) from Western Parts of the Iranian Plateau migrated into South Central Asia and evolved into the East Iranian who became known as BMAC folks.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

After the Neolithic there seems to be a flow from Anatolia and Caucasus or a region close to it to Iran, not from the steppes.

Population

Loschbour:Loschbour

Barcin_Neolithic:I0707

Esperstedt_MN:I0172

Karelia_HG

Kotias:KK1

Nganasan

Mozabite

Iran_Neolithic:I1290

Israel_Natufian:I0861

Paniya

Dai

Distance

Iran_Neolithic:WC1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	97,3	2	0	0,7	0,005367
Iran_Neolithic:I1945	0	0	0	2,8	0	0	0	92,1	0	5,1	0	0,011044
Iran_Neolithic:I1290	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	100	0	0	0	0
Iran_Late_Neolithic:I1671	0	0,9	0	0	15,3	0	0	75,8	7,1	0,9	0	0,005985
Iran_Hotu:I1293	0	0	0	13,4	0	0	0	84,1	0	2,5	0	0,011722
Iran_Chalcolithic:I1674	0	12,7	0	0	27,2	0	0	39,9	20,2	0	0	0,006394
Iran_Chalcolithic:I1670	0	16,2	0	0	28,1	1,3	0	39,4	15	0	0	0,006489
Iran_Chalcolithic:I1665	0	0,6	0	0	43,2	0	0	24,9	31,3	0	0	0,009529
Iran_Chalcolithic:I1662	0	19,3	0	0	19,3	0	0	49	12,4	0	0	0,007656
Iran_Chalcolithic:I1661	0	24,7	0	0	16,1	0	0	56,7	2,5	0	0	0,006435

So, if the IE languages weren't already there in the Neolithic*, they could have been brought there by a group of people who had Barcin, Kotias admixture. Even Natufian increases.

*Most would say they weren't but I am mentioning it in order to be 100% clear.