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View Poll Results: Where did haplogroup T first originate ( 2nd Poll with Expanded options )

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  • Turan Lowland - Kazakh Uplands - Southern Urals ( Central Asia )

    2 8.33%
  • East European Plain - Northern Black Sea - Caspian Lowland ( East Europe )

    4 16.67%
  • Around the Alpide belt ( West Asia )

    13 54.17%
  • Around the Alpide belt ( Himalayas )

    5 20.83%
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Thread: Where did haplogroup T first originate ( 2nd Poll with Expanded options )

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Thanks. Actually I registered three months ago (after much lurking) and first posted on the Iberomaurusian aDNA thread. Honestly I am just posting now to avoid doing real work.
    Join the club. :)

    Your contributions are very astute. Happy to have you.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    It is confirmed as south caspian area , north of the zargos mountains...............no where near mesopotamia .......along with L
    J2 is caucasus

    And it is alpide belt and not alpine

    cheers
    I think it is great how dedicated you are to researching the history of T, I am sure that you will find out the answer in future with upcoming ancient dna samples. As for J2, I don't personally think it is Caucasian in origin, and that I believe it formed in the area just south, around the Zagros/Lake Van or Western Iranian plateau.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Happy to have you.
    Thanks! Nice place you've got here.

  4. #79
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
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    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    I think it is great how dedicated you are to researching the history of T, I am sure that you will find out the answer in future with upcoming ancient dna samples. As for J2, I don't personally think it is Caucasian in origin, and that I believe it formed in the area just south, around the Zagros/Lake Van or Western Iranian plateau.


    thanks

    today new paper - which I included in another thread states

    The earliest dates, with the oldest differentiations for J2 at 8.4 ka, and J1 at 8.9 ka, show an early divergence between the Caucasus from the rest of the populations.

    But lake Van is close enough

    In regards to T ............why not be dedicated to my line ..........with a completed YFull ( early Feb 2017 for STR ) I am a new branch along with an eastern Frenchman who is 600 years younger than me ...........an indication my line went north from the Alps ...IMO
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    thanks

    today new paper - which I included in another thread states

    The earliest dates, with the oldest differentiations for J2 at 8.4 ka, and J1 at 8.9 ka, show an early divergence between the Caucasus from the rest of the populations.

    But lake Van is close enough

    In regards to T ............why not be dedicated to my line ..........with a completed YFull ( early Feb 2017 for STR ) I am a new branch along with an eastern Frenchman who is 600 years younger than me ...........an indication my line went north from the Alps ...IMO
    My pleasure,

    Of course, as am I with J2, I did BigY and transferred my results to Yfull in August, I just got my Str results 2 days ago, J2 has many subclades and I think it hard to pinpoint one exact location for all of them, there is definitely a migration of J2 to the Caucasus. I have formulated for the L210 and Pre-L210 lineages and the down streams, Pre-L210 kits (they have all the upstreams but are negative for L210) seem to be either Lebanese or Syrian, L210 and down streams have a much wider diversity. What did this paper say for T? Haplogroup T fascinates me, I find it a very interesting haplogroup.

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    I disagree with North of the Aldipe belt

  7. #82
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    My pleasure,

    Of course, as am I with J2, I did BigY and transferred my results to Yfull in August, I just got my Str results 2 days ago, J2 has many subclades and I think it hard to pinpoint one exact location for all of them, there is definitely a migration of J2 to the Caucasus. I have formulated for the L210 and Pre-L210 lineages and the down streams, Pre-L210 kits (they have all the upstreams but are negative for L210) seem to be either Lebanese or Syrian, L210 and down streams have a much wider diversity. What did this paper say for T? Haplogroup T fascinates me, I find it a very interesting haplogroup.
    It said nothing about T in Arabia

    There are only 94 samples which are T in the 8500 samples tested:

    21 in Armenia
    21 in Turkey
    13 in Lebanon
    7 in Iran
    5 in Caucasus
    5 in Egypt
    3 came from Europe
    7 south levant
    and 9 others

    zero samples are anywhere near my markers.........closest is an Iranian who matches me only in 9 of 12 STR

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    It said nothing about T in Arabia

    There are only 94 samples which are T in the 8500 samples tested:

    21 in Armenia
    21 in Turkey
    13 in Lebanon
    7 in Iran
    5 in Caucasus
    5 in Egypt
    3 came from Europe
    7 south levant
    and 9 others

    zero samples are anywhere near my markers.........closest is an Iranian who matches me only in 9 of 12 STR
    That is very interesting, your branch must be an older branch that went into europe earlier, even at 9 of 12 str that is very distant. Did they test further snps?

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    That is very interesting, your branch must be an older branch that went into europe earlier, even at 9 of 12 str that is very distant. Did they test further snps?
    If you are asking about mine....then use this thread
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post498519

  10. #85
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    My first aproach on the LT-L298 origin 49600-41400 ybp, their descendant haplogroup T-M184 45500-39700 ybp their main branches T1-L206 (T1a-M70, T1b(xM70)) and T2-PH110 29300-24500 ybp as well as the L2-M595 25700-20800 ybp subclade of L-M20. I haven't added L1 because should be geographically overlapped by T-M184.
    Used samples:
    All known samples belonging to T2-PH110, L2-M595, T1-L206 (xM70) as well as all known samples belonging to basal subclades of T1a-M70. T1a-M70 basal subclades of: Y8614, Y11675, L162, PH141, L446. Samples found here: YFULL, FTDNA haplogroup T project, Hallast14 et al, Frigi05, Mendez11, Jakovski11 among other published papers.

    LT-L298 and T-M184 origin.jpg

  11. #86
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    Interesting, where are the T1b samples from? Never heard of that one before.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Interesting, where are the T1b samples from? Never heard of that one before.
    T1b samples are from:
    1.1.1 Druzes from Mount Lebanon, Beirut, Lebanon, Assyut Upper Egypt and Iberian-american from Córdoba, Colombia. This could be a first group. 1.1.2 A possible subgroup found in Syria.
    1.2 A possible second group found among Berbers from Sejnane, Tunisia.
    2.1 A possible third group and possibly most basally splitted found among Orthodox Christians in Macedonia.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    T1b samples are from:
    1.1.1 Druzes from Mount Lebanon, Beirut, Lebanon, Assyut Upper Egypt and Iberian-american from Córdoba, Colombia. This could be a first group. 1.1.2 A possible subgroup found in Syria.
    1.2 A possible second group found among Berbers from Sejnane, Tunisia.
    2.1 A possible third group and possibly most basally splitted found among Orthodox Christians in Macedonia.
    Thanks! Are these actually confirmed M70- by SNP testing?

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Thanks! Are these actually confirmed M70- by SNP testing?
    Two of them are M70- tested. The others are predicted with very high confidence.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    I can clearly see that the LT or L and T individualy origin in europe, is an eurocentric thing right here... For alpide belt, alpine term is not false, just unusual, in french we say Ceinture Alpine, and english dont have the monopole of terms, neither of scientific behavior. I dont understand, the way you thinking, for you, its like eurasia was a crossroads, where every tribes go on and on, and salute themselves... J haplogroups is wide spread, maybe because he is one of the real neolithic signal, like R1 because they were unusualy nomadic, being nomad in a mountaneous region like iranian plateau and nomad in a flat steppe, its not the same.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I can clearly see that the LT or L and T individualy origin in europe, is an eurocentric thing right here... For alpide belt, alpine term is not false, just unusual, in french we say Ceinture Alpine, and english dont have the monopole of terms, neither of scientific behavior. I dont understand, the way you thinking, for you, its like eurasia was a crossroads, where every tribes go on and on, and salute themselves... J haplogroups is wide spread, maybe because he is one of the real neolithic signal, like R1 because they were unusualy nomadic, being nomad in a mountaneous region like iranian plateau and nomad in a flat steppe, its not the same.
    Alpine and alpide belt are different

    Basically what we are saying is that when man crossed from Africa through the arabian peninsula , it crossed under the haplogroup termed CF , when haplogroup F was "born" it was born north of the alpide belt.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F-M89

    So , every haplogroup group which originates from haplogroup F , originates north of the Alpide belt


    The zargos mountains is also the divide for the alpide belt

    and

    Mesopotamia and the fertile crescent people, originate from north of the alpide belt

    Arabian peninsula was populated by haplogroups that originate north of the alpide belt

    the only halpogroups which originate with a possibility of south of the alpide belt are under this

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_DE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Alpine and alpide belt are different

    Basically what we are saying is that when man crossed from Africa through the arabian peninsula , it crossed under the haplogroup termed CF , when haplogroup F was "born" it was born north of the alpide belt.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F-M89

    So , every haplogroup group which originates from haplogroup F , originates north of the Alpide belt


    The zargos mountains is also the divide for the alpide belt

    and

    Mesopotamia and the fertile crescent people, originate from north of the alpide belt

    Arabian peninsula was populated by haplogroups that originate north of the alpide belt

    the only halpogroups which originate with a possibility of south of the alpide belt are under this

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_DE

    What ?!? Alpine or Alpide belt are the same thing, or you talk something different than me. Your idea of spread of haplogroups is strange. Do you know that a population can have, especially in early upper paleolithic, a large scale of haplogroups, but being a same population ? North of the Alpide Belt in a eurasian context, means the eurasian steppe, so you think every modern humans descending from F-M89 come from the eurasian steppe ? You talk about arabian peninsula, but there is also india. Wich shows clearly the world highest haplogroups and genetic diversification of the world, there is even strange haplogroups, non repertoriate, without specific clade in india. But i was talking, for the recent 10'000 years, where F,G,H are clearly basal eurasian ON the alpide belt ( Anatolia, Iranian Plateau ) and Q, R in the eurasian steppe. I in europe and J around the caucasus in maybe in some pockets. Everything change after, like history show us, migration, demic and cultural diffusion....

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    What ?!? Alpine or Alpide belt are the same thing, or you talk something different than me. Your idea of spread of haplogroups is strange. Do you know that a population can have, especially in early upper paleolithic, a large scale of haplogroups, but being a same population ? North of the Alpide Belt in a eurasian context, means the eurasian steppe, so you think every modern humans descending from F-M89 come from the eurasian steppe ? You talk about arabian peninsula, but there is also india. Wich shows clearly the world highest haplogroups and genetic diversification of the world, there is even strange haplogroups, non repertoriate, without specific clade in india. But i was talking, for the recent 10'000 years, where F,G,H are clearly basal eurasian ON the alpide belt ( Anatolia, Iranian Plateau ) and Q, R in the eurasian steppe. I in europe and J around the caucasus in maybe in some pockets. Everything change after, like history show us, migration, demic and cultural diffusion....
    Iran is north of the alpide belt, but not irak, nor syria

    the azeri and south caucasus are north of the alpide belt

    you cannot have J haplogroup created before the creation of F haplogroup

    Karafet already stated that R was created in south east asian ..........R1 in and around the himalysas , R2 in South asia..........and R1a and R1b is still being discussed

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    Zagros and Elbrouz, so south and north of iran, so iran, is the alpide belt, caucasus is alpide belt... Im talkin about the mountaneous belt from pyrennae to himalaya, maybe you talk about a special concept... By the way, when a talk of alpide belt in a eurasian context, im talking about anatolia, caucasus, iran, and all the pamiri-himalayan complexe, not europe or birmania.

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    And you should not take an statement for granted, even or especially with genetic postulats

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    For the Origin of R, R1, R2... i think the better proxy for Q, R and later R1 and R2 is still the Pamiro-Himalayan complexe... Afghanistan, Issyk Kul, Central Asia in a large scale... For R1a and R1b the dispersion from central asia is pretty sure, especially for R1a that we found in mesolithic russia context, siberian context, neolithic far east context... ( Yes Iran because Reich team said so ). R1b is most complicated, but if we take on account R1b-V88 in africa who clearly came with neolithic package, and because the Caucasus crossing doesnt make sens for me, especially in early neolithic, i think that an South Turkmenistan, by the Elbrouz Chains or maybe with boat across the caspian... are better theory about the propagation of R1b in west asia, wich is not the same for the pontic steppe, who clearly came from north caspian to volga. Sorry for the 3 posts, Eupedia doesnt let me Edite.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I personally think T originated in the Alpide belt, and that Sile has it right, interestingly too I believe T might have been a major haplogroup of the ancient Mesopotamian peoples, specifically the Sumerians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    I personally think T originated in the Alpide belt, and that Sile has it right, interestingly too I believe T might have been a major haplogroup of the ancient Mesopotamian peoples, specifically the Sumerians.


    blue = T1a1 branch

    green = T1a2

    brown = T1a3

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    Where did haplogroup T first originate ( 2nd Poll with Expanded options )

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post


    blue = T1a1 branch

    green = T1a2

    brown = T1a3

    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    I personally think T originated in the Alpide belt, and that Sile has it right, interestingly too I believe T might have been a major haplogroup of the ancient Mesopotamian peoples, specifically the Sumerians.

    The domain extension of the pic and link posted was .org
    I replaced it with .cc

    ps I thought that one of the T1a1 branch migrated back in to Europe crossing through Gibraltar and going in to Spain, all the way up in to Wales and England. ???
    Last edited by Salento; 26-05-18 at 15:09.
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    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    The domain extension of the pic and link posted was .org
    I replaced it with .cc

    ps I thought that one of the T1a1 branch migrated back in to Europe crossing through Gibraltar and going in to Spain, all the way up in to Wales and England. ???
    you mean this T1a1

    T-M184 ...sample ID KEB6 genome from Neolithic Kelif el Boroud.Belongs to P77 branch.
    M70+, L162+, L208+, Y4119+, CTS2214+, Z709+, Z710+, L906+, Y4984+, P77+
    According to the authors, the Neolithic ancient KEB6 individual, belonged to a group that crossed the strait of Gibraltar from Iberian Peninsula to North Africa.
    Mtdna is K1a4a1
    .
    most likely T1a1 went into NW Africa via Iberia ..............I cannot find any , the other way around

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