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View Poll Results: Should we remove god from constitution, oaths and anthems?

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11. You may not vote on this poll
  • No reference to god(s) should be in constitution, oaths and anthems.

    6 54.55%
  • Dominant religion's god(s) should be in constitution, oaths and anthems

    1 9.09%
  • Add anybody's god(s) to constitution, oaths and anthem to accommodate all religious people.

    2 18.18%
  • I don't know or I don't care.

    2 18.18%
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Thread: Should God be removed from politics and law?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey D View Post
    I was just listening to an interesting discussion on the radio about why it's so difficult for predominantly Islamic nation-states to follow the secularisation path which the West has followed for hundreds of years.

    The overwhelming alignment of religion/politics/economics/law in Islam, actually, the word I'm looking for is stronger than just alignment: inter-connectedness, entwined, interdependence, etc - suggests the quasi impossibility of Islam undergoing its own Reformation, or if it is to undergo its own Reformation, it will be longer, harder and bloodier.

    We can trace the roots of this all the way back to the Prophets of the respective religions.

    Despite, being the son of God, a part of the Holy Trinity, Jesus still commands his followers to obey the law of Caesar - so there is immediately a distinction between civil law and the law of God from the outset, the two live side by side, and thus the opening to lever one from the other exists and has progressively played itself out in the West to reach the point where we are today (which is a good thing in my view).

    Muhammad was an altogether different type of prophet, who was able to spread Islam during his lifetime, as a political leader and military general. During his lifetime he was able to establish the principle that there can only be one law, what we know today to be Sharia law.

    Some predominantly Islamic states have occasionally experimented with modernity and a degree of secularisation, Turkey being the most notable, but even then, this tension has always existed which stops Turkey from continuing along that path of secularisation.

    Other examples are Indonesia and Malaysia, which both have significant minorities, and have had some success at a form of secularisation, but even then, those same tensions lurk, and underscore the difficulty Islam faces in undergoing its own Reformation.
    One thing the West will not grasp is that while Religious law runs supreme in Most Islamic countries, there are lots and lots of things happening clandestinely in the Islamic world. Gambling, prostitution, drugs....you name it and its there. Its a don't ask don't tell policy. Its just that publicly they need to look good but they still sin heavily (like most humans do) if you know what I mean :). These systems have been entrenched for so long even pre Islamic times, that are very much accepted part of the system. Its mostly, Islamic people that lived in the west that push for 'democratic' reforms and not the locals themselves.

  2. #27
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    What if I want to choose a different option. I'm against constitution, oaths and anthems. It is a sign and the beginning of the fascism. I'm pro the 'modern' tribalism
    Definitely fasicm, if those are about race based nationalistic constitution, oaths and anthems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    We shouldn't involve God into the earthly matters.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    but everybody should have their own?
    How will that possible? Sorry but I don't agree.

    Some symbolic things should be single, such as flag, anthem etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    look at the middle east 50 years ago and today
    look what is happening in Turkey today


    there is no progress, these countries are going backward
    Actually, Erdogan was a totally good politician, Even he is denying what he said in the begining of the week, in the last day of week. He said I gave the order to hit Russian plane, but now he is saying "FETO" did.

    About that issue which LeBrok said, Erdogan took great steps.

    Like canceling T.C (Summary of Turkish Republic) infront of many formal organisation in Turkey.



    People put this symbol into their names as a prostest. These people right nationalistic or secular followers of Ataturks party.


    Cancelling Students oath. I read that Oath in every school days
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_Oath_(Turkey)

    These steps were taking just to make Kurds happy.

    Actually I am very pleased about these. The problem he is starting to put his owns and not obey laws.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    One thing the West will not grasp is that while Religious law runs supreme in Most Islamic countries, there are lots and lots of things happening clandestinely in the Islamic world. Gambling, prostitution, drugs....you name it and its there. Its a don't ask don't tell policy. Its just that publicly they need to look good but they still sin heavily (like most humans do) if you know what I mean :). These systems have been entrenched for so long even pre Islamic times, that are very much accepted part of the system. Its mostly, Islamic people that lived in the west that push for 'democratic' reforms and not the locals themselves.
    It is very hypocrit, especialy when you consider that certain priviliged groups are allowed to commit all these sins, as long as they don't do it publicly and other groups will be punished very severely for that.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It could be accomplished first in Bosnia and Albania first, or maybe it already is?
    I can not speak about Bosnia but Albania is a secular country and is not an muslim or christian country. There are different religions in Albania. A large part of people who are from an muslim background are atheists or agnostics. The marriages between people of different religions are a common thing. In a table during a family holiday, you can find united people even belonging to more than two different religions. As for the religiosity of the people, the Albanians are not the best example. lol
    Last edited by LABERIA; 24-12-16 at 13:28.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


  5. #30
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    I voted for the third option. In our anthem God is mentioned only once:

    Fourth stanza (not usually sung)

    Se Zoti vetë e tha me gojë
    Që kombe shuhen përmbi dhé,
    Po Shqipëria do të rrojë;
    Për ty, për ty luftojmë ne!

    For God himself proclaimed:
    The nations of the earth shall wane,
    And yet will live, will thrive Albania.
    For you, for you we fight.

    And in Albanian Constitution:

    Preamble

    We, the people of Albania, proud of our history and with faith in the future; with determination to build a social and democratic state based on the rule of law; with the aim of respecting universal human values; with a spirit of tolerance and religious coexistence; with belief that human dignity and personhood should be protected, as well as the prosperity of the whole nation, toward the goals of peace, well-being, culture and social solidarity; with the centuries-old aspiration of Albanianism, and national identity and unity; with a deep belief that justice, peace, harmony and cooperation among nations are among the highest values of humanity, We establish this Constitution:

    Article 10

    The Republic of Albania does not have an official religion.
    The state is neutral in questions of belief and conscience, and also, it guarantees the freedom of their expression in public life.
    The state guarantees equality of religious communities.
    The state and the religious communities respect the independence of one another mutually and work together for the good of each of them and for all.
    Agreements between the state and religious communities are regulated on the basis of agreements entered into between their representatives and the Council of Ministers. These agreements are ratified by the Assembly.
    Religious communities are juridical persons. They have independence in the administration of their properties according to their principles, rules and canons.

  6. #31
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    They are nationalistic, therefore they should unite nation and not divide. They should agree with values of the whole nation, not only part of it. Even if it is a bigger part.
    So we should change our anthem every time when values of the nation change (basically every generation or so)? Or for example when ethnic, racial or religious composition of the nation changes dramatically, due to massive immigration?

    For example the Swedish anthem dates back to times when Sweden was 99% White and 99% Christian.

    Should they change it now only because they allowed some Non-Whites and Muslims to immigrate?

    Nope, immigrants should adjust their own values to values of the place where they migrate.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I can not speak about Bosnia but Albania is a secular country and is not an muslim or christian country. There are different religions in Albania. A large part of people who are from an muslim background are atheists or agnostics. The marriages between people of different religions are a common thing. In a table during a family holiday, you can find united people even belonging to more than two different religions. As for the religiosity of the people, the Albanians are not the best example. lol
    Any religiosity in anthem, oath or coarts?

    Edit, I saw your second post. Thanks
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  8. #33
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    It is not about GOD, it is about the anti-Gender equality that these religious constitutions promote.............a promotion that should not be accepted by any nation.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    So we should change our anthem every time when values of the nation change (basically every generation or so)? Or for example when ethnic, racial or religious composition of the nation changes dramatically, due to massive immigration?
    It already changed few times in Poland and other countries. It is a normal thing to update an anthem. The problem is that your conservative side doesn't even want to believe that it is a normal thing. Is Poland running out of poets and musicians?

    For example the Swedish anthem dates back to times when Sweden was 99% White and 99% Christian.
    They don't sing Viking songs anymore. Times changed, right? They don't sing pagan religion songs either, because they became Christians at some point and totally changed character of their country.
    Don't be so afraid. If anything, the change is normal and not status quo.

    Should they change it now only because they allowed some Non-Whites and Muslims to immigrate?

    Nope, immigrants should adjust their own values to values of the place where they migrate.
    Again you are scared of changes. Who are you to tell Swedes what to do? They chose their destiny, and you acting like a tyrant who would force them to do what you want.
    Should emigrants change religion too? Should atheist Swedes change their "values" too and start believing in christian god? Just because they are changing the christian character of a country and you don't like it.

    I do believe that social values of emigrants should match values of destination country. For sake of both involved parties. I just don't get why would you mention it in this context, if social values have little or nothing to do with religion. So what the values have to do with removing god from anthem and oaths?

  10. #35
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    It is not about GOD, it is about the anti-Gender equality that these religious constitutions promote.............a promotion that should not be accepted by any nation.
    Do you mean "promoting gender inequality"? Could you elaborate how so?

    In Canadian anthem, word "sons" was replace with "all", which is more inclusive.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 24-12-16 at 19:45.

  11. #36
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    In my opinion, It is up to the local Government to decide. I don't believe the "Star Spangled Banner" had any reference to God however our national Anthem was written in the battlefield of the Battle of Baltimore in 1814. However there is a reference to God in the pledge of Allegiance, American coins and the Declaration of Independence. I personally believe we should keep the old documents the way they are in spite of religious references because part of the first amendment is "freedom of religion"

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baltimore


    https://allthingsliberty.com/2016/02...-constitution/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    In my opinion, It is up to the local Government to decide. I don't believe the "Star Spangled Banner" had any reference to God however our national Anthem was written in the battlefield of the Battle of Baltimore in 1814. However there is a reference to God in the pledge of Allegiance, American coins and the Declaration of Independence. I personally believe we should keep the old documents the way they are in spite of religious references because part of the first amendment is "freedom of religion"

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baltimore


    https://allthingsliberty.com/2016/02...-constitution/
    And I believe it includes freedom of no religion too.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    And I believe it includes freedom of no religion too.
    Good point, in retrospect the first amendment might have not been the best argument and attached to the origional documents also. Well, either way your country chooses it's fine with me. But It would be cool if the American documents did get some editing, then the origional Drafts would be preserved to capture the aura and attitudes of the American Revolution at the time ^_^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    Good point, in retrospect the first amendment might have not been the best argument and attached to the origional documents also. Well, either way your country chooses it's fine with me. But It would be cool if the American documents did get some editing, then the origional Drafts would be preserved to capture the aura and attitudes of the American Revolution at the time ^_^
    You know that the idea behind "freedom of religion" is not to help religion to flourish. It is not like creation of reserves to protect endangered species. The main idea behind crafting this law in US, or other places like Europe, was to make sure religious wars stop. In 15, 16 and 17 century there was a lot of religious killing and wars going on in US and in Europe. Millions of people died on many sides. Something had to be done. That's why we have a law "freedom of religion", which guarantee that nobody can kill you because of your religion. Meaning that religious wars and killing is illegal. It gives power to the state to stop any religious war or killing, and this gives everybody a right to believe in what they want. By this spirit of "freedom of religion" right, atheist's right to chose not to believe in spiritual world, is protected too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You know that the idea behind "freedom of religion" is not to help religion to flourish. It is not like creation of reserves to protect endangered species. The main idea behind crafting this law in US, or other places like Europe, was to make sure religious wars stop. In 15, 16 and 17 century there was a lot of religious killing and wars going on in US and in Europe. Millions of people died on many sides. Something had to be done. That's why we have a law "freedom of religion", which guarantee that nobody can kill you because of your religion. Meaning that religious wars and killing is illegal. It gives power to the state to stop any religious war or killing, and this gives everybody a right to believe in what they want. By this spirit of "freedom of religion" right, atheist's right to chose not to believe in spiritual world, is protected too.
    Yes of course don't get me wrong, you have the right to be atheist for sure? Although Im not sure what you mean by endangered species but it seems you are catching my drift when I meant "aura and attitudes". If we talk about Geneology, Religious persecution was the reason why almost half of my ancestors came to America. And we must learn from the mistakes of our elders if we are not to repeat the mistake of religious fighting, true stuff gets repeated anyway but the blow can be cushioned by love; to drive out hatred. ^_^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    Yes of course don't get me wrong, you have the right to be atheist for sure? Although Im not sure what you mean by endangered species but it seems you are catching my drift when I meant "aura and attitudes". If we talk about Geneology, Religious persecution was the reason why almost half of my ancestors came to America. And we must learn from the mistakes of our elders if we are not to repeat the mistake of religious fighting, true stuff gets repeated anyway but the blow can be cushioned by love; to drive out hatred. ^_^
    Amen, my friend. :)

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    Removal thereof is impossible as long as there is an appeal within it to a substantial percentage of the population. What bothers me about this however is the pandering aspect and that type of mirroring exists on a much higher level than just the religion or the belief system. These references merely reflect something that "is there" and easily used and manipulated by those who have researched the effect of their statements tailored towards them.

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