Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 29

Thread: People of the Appennino Parmense/Val Cedra

  1. #1
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    People of the Appennino Parmense/Val Cedra



    This is the Parma Apennines. Geographically, the area runs from the Emilian plane south of Parma up the Apennines mountains. One part of this area is the ancestral home of all my father's ancestors. The people were the subject of a groundbreaking genetic study conducted by Luca Cavalli-Sforza examining drift in isolated populations.

    Already by well before 1000 AD comuni were established in the area. During the Roman era, a road threaded through the Val Cedra and Val Parma and over the passes through the Appennini which was called the "Strada delle Cento Miglia", and which connected Parma with Luni on the Mediterranean coast. However, as time passed, the road became disused and the area isolated. The people seem never to have gone anywhere until the beginning of the 20th century when modern roads were first built to the area. Prior to that time, ingress and egress was by horse or mule or foot.


    See:
    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strada_delle_cento_miglia

    All of these pictures are from the village from which most of my father's ancestors came back as far as I can track them.

    Click to enlarge

    Gente di P 4.jpg

    gente di P 3.jpgGente di P 5.jpg

    Daddy-in campagna.jpg

    gente di P 6.jpg


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York


  3. #3
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Cont'd

    These are from neighboring villages, with whom they intermarried:










  4. #4
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York


  5. #5
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Cont'd:










  6. #6
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,380
    Points
    37,785
    Level
    59
    Points: 37,785, Level: 59
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 65
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    mixed (as always) but as a whole very more continental than truly mediterranean, for I think (I'm not amazed);
    there is a myth of geographically 'mediterraean' people being phenotypically 'mediterranean' in one or several meanings of anthropologia; it's enough to tan people and give them some kind of deportment to forge cartoon 'Mediterraneans', reality is not so straight away?
    It's true the first "meds" come from W-Anatolia with farming or breeding were far to check the known enough 'mediter' phenotype; they had some poedomorphic features, and I think rather a short nose, a bit "snub" formed, not the "viril" ombrageous aspect of later 'meds' from Near-East, most influenced by Arabian lands and West-Asian-Caucasus lands people, I guess.

  7. #7
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't know what the first farmers precisely looked like in nose shape or anything else. Given the findings of the most recent paper on Sardinian genetics, the closest modern populations we have are the isolated Sardinian groups from places like Ogliastra, although they're closer perhaps to the EEF who had picked up some additional WHG.








    Here they are in the "round", so to speak, with a lot of close ups. They don't strike me as a particularly small nosed group, but whatever...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9gaL1gU9I0

    Bottom line, though, I just don't think we know, because natural selection and drift must have worked on these people as well as on everyone else.

    As to the rest of your comment, I agree. I've never thought that most of the people of this area looked very much like the "Mediterranean" or "Southern European" stereotype of the popular imagination, apart from a few people here and there. (Indeed, that's true of whole swathes of Italy.) Still, in terms of genetics they are indeed "Southern European" autosomally, and fit seamlessly within the Italian genetic cline.

    I've always thought it's an object lesson in not thinking that certain percentages of certain Admixture clusters are going to translate into a certain "appearance".

    Oh, one additional thing I know is that these villages are attested around 800 AD. From what I can tell from our family records, which go back to the 1300s in some cases, these people have been isolated reproductively since at least the 1300s and probably back to the 800s, so in my opinion they're representative of the population of this area back to the period after the fall of Rome. Who knows, perhaps they fled up those mountains to escape the wars, famines, diseases, and dislocations of the period that used to be called "The Dark Ages". Aside from personal reasons, that's why they so fascinate me.

  8. #8
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,380
    Points
    37,785
    Level
    59
    Points: 37,785, Level: 59
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 65
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Thanks Angela for the pictures
    Sometimes i rely more on phenotypes (for pops not for individuals) than on admixtures of auDNA - the most of the external phenotypes used are without great adaptative importance or great way of life input (total stature left aside) and their evolution by selection needs long enough time to produce striking results as a arule, except some rare traits; It's a guess because I don't know what kind of auDNA is taken in account for admixtures, but I suppose a part of it is submitted to selective adaptation (climatic, plagues?)
    I don't know what level of homozigoty is taken in account to produce a reference population presented as component in admixture. I've to learn here.
    BTW I don't take today Sardinians are representatives of only 'danubian' or first EEF type, far from that: type # pop - the 'anatolian' farmers pop was not completely homogenous phenotypically speaking yet, only the type was numerically dominant (it was the case already in Chatal Höyük pop); and Sardinians received other types even at Cardial before the metals ages, a bit different from the 'danubian' or 'anatolian' one, already a bit closer to modern 'mediter' stereotype, spite not 'arab-like' or 'afghan-like'; we have crania to tell this.
    for the outside parts of nose, today Mediterranean pops of far South show a mix where rather long rather straight 'mediter' noses are along shorter and up-tipped noses (I want to say, their "bearers" or "owners"! These noses are not rovering here and their on their own) - I'm tempted to to put these last noses on the account of 'danubians' (we have no photo of first farmers, only the fact that the crania shows the nose hole basis was strikingly very far from the teeth crown) ; statistically in modern pop they go along with very high skulls and very vertical frontals, something more infantile, less viril among males, body hair left aside. It's very possible some peculair traits of 'danubian/anatolian med' occurred inside a pop which was not so different from other North Near-Eastern pops at first concerning total auDNA; it could isolation/endogamy effect but it gives way to separate between some Neolithic agricultural first pops inputs in Europe. Its seems to me this typical infantile type was the basis of Neolithic people who colonized from South the South Baltic lands and Eastern Europe lands; I think it's responsible for the most of the 'med' part of Czechoslovakia and slavic or slavized Central Europe, and take a part into the mean type so called 'east-baltic' of old science; all that before some 'afghanlike' oriented new southerners went (less numerous) with the mix of metals ages, northern lands outside the most of the new moves.

  9. #9
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Genetic analysis is done using what is called "junk dna". It is dna which based on current knowledge does not code for important traits.

    In terms of the people of my valley, my point was that with minor variations these people score the same amount of "Mediterranean" or "West Asian" or "North Euro" despite the fact that they can have a very different appearance, as in the case of this rather plain blond girl and her friend. They have typically north/north-central Italian scores, and by any measure are typically "Southern European" autosomally. This applies even in my immediate family. My brother looks much more "Central Euro" than I do.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachm...achmentid=8337

  10. #10
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience PointsTagger Second Class1 year registered

    Join Date
    06-11-16
    Posts
    184


    Ethnic group
    Neapolitan, Swiss, Slavic
    Country: Hungary



    I think the truly "Med" people only exist in South of Italy, Sardinia/Siciily like Francesco Scianna or Giulia Salemi, these people seem to share features more in common with Swiss, Southern Germans.

  11. #11
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Regardless of what they may look like to you or me or anyone else, these people are Southern Europeans with high levels of "Mediterranean". On Dodecad dv3, for example, they score around 45% Mediterranean, and 13-15% West Asian. Their South West Asian is minimal, around 3-4%.

    You seem to be using "Mediterranean" in a very unscientific and stereotypical way, if I may say so, even if what you mean by it is a certain "appearance" instead of admixture clusters. I don't put much stock in the whole "classification" business, but if you're going to do that sort of thing, one should at least stick to the findings of the actual physical anthropologists. By those measures, you're quite incorrect.









  12. #12
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience PointsTagger Second Class1 year registered

    Join Date
    06-11-16
    Posts
    184


    Ethnic group
    Neapolitan, Swiss, Slavic
    Country: Hungary



    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    ^^

    The "Mediterranean" component used in V3 is based on Sardinian samples from the Island.
    When it comes to other components Sardinians can be genetically classified as somewhere between a Western European and a Gulf Arab.
    According to physical anthropologists the origin of the Mediterranean race came from the Middle East and even there are forms of European Mediterraneans who shows little to no similarity to modern day Middle East it's clear their origin is Near Eastern by measurements and by modern day genetic.
    Taxonomy and physical anthropology is a pseudoscience but it has proved what we already know by the usage of DNA that the inhabitants of South Europe came from the Near East in different waves.

    The reason why i mentioned those, because in their case the recent Near Eastern origin is very clear and they would never be guessed anything other than some sort of "WOG" sorry if it sounds arrogant.

    You're right the people you posted are Mediterraneans more or less by genetic but has a significant impact of other elements such as EHG, WHG and other DNA alleles which makes them passable in general Europe, because the wast majority of Europeans today with the exception of Saamis and some North East European groups have recent Near Eastern admixture.

    Sardinians have around 50% Indigenous Levantine ancestry which peaks in Christian Levantines. The rest is Mesolithic European for the most part with minor North African.




  13. #13
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,380
    Points
    37,785
    Level
    59
    Points: 37,785, Level: 59
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 65
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Genetic analysis is done using what is called "junk dna". It is dna which based on current knowledge does not code for important traits.

    In terms of the people of my valley, my point was that with minor variations these people score the same amount of "Mediterranean" or "West Asian" or "North Euro" despite the fact that they can have a very different appearance, as in the case of this rather plain blond girl and her friend. They have typically north/north-central Italian scores, and by any measure are typically "Southern European" autosomally. This applies even in my immediate family. My brother looks much more "Central Euro" than I do.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachm...achmentid=8337

    OK for first part, thanks ("junk DNA") - so it's not the answer of apparent discrepancy;
    that said, taking individuals to prove phenotypes have little to say about auDNA and admixture is a bit light; everybody with a taste of information know as you and as me the reduced part of auDNA responsible for external phenotype is ridiculously small compared to total auDNA; but it seems seems that a population level there are statistical links between this limited DNA and the total DNA even if drift can explain some discrepancy;
    admixture seems to me a still very imperfect tool, but i've to learn the way they discriminate genes to put them in drawers, and what true distance exist between pools.

  14. #14
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,380
    Points
    37,785
    Level
    59
    Points: 37,785, Level: 59
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 65
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    BTW, spite not overlapping with Spanyards, on more than a DNA-PCA we saw Toscans closer to Northern Italians than to South Italians, North Italians very close to Southern French and North Spanyards (contacts) - Southern Italians/Sicilians are close to Greeks and Askhenazes people as a whole when Sardinians are apart - Italians form the most auDNA "spred" people in Europe. But PCAs are PCAs...

  15. #15
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Seanp View Post
    ^^

    The "Mediterranean" component used in V3 is based on Sardinian samples from the Island.
    When it comes to other components Sardinians can be genetically classified as somewhere between a Western European and a Gulf Arab.
    According to physical anthropologists the origin of the Mediterranean race came from the Middle East and even there are forms of European Mediterraneans who shows little to no similarity to modern day Middle East it's clear their origin is Near Eastern by measurements and by modern day genetic.
    Taxonomy and physical anthropology is a pseudoscience but it has proved what we already know by the usage of DNA that the inhabitants of South Europe came from the Near East in different waves.

    [Racist comments have been deleted]

    You're right the people you posted are Mediterraneans more or less by genetic but has a significant impact of other elements such as EHG, WHG and other DNA alleles which makes them passable in general Europe, because the wast majority of Europeans today with the exception of Saamis and some North East European groups have recent Near Eastern admixture.

    Sardinians have around 50% Indigenous Levantine ancestry which peaks in Christian Levantines. The rest is Mesolithic European for the most part with minor North African.
    As posters noted on another thread, you have a habit of posting opinions which are based on major misunderstandings of recent findings in population genetics. Plus, you seem to pull percentages out of the air. They certainly don't appear in any respected studies.

    If you want to know about Sardinian genetics, try reading the latest paper on it. That would clear up some of your confusion. The Sardinians from the isolated interior plain who are modal for the "Mediterranean" cluster do not have North African ancestry. Also, calling them 50% "Mesolithic" is a nonsense statement. "Mesolithic" is a time period and a description of culture, not a genetic cluster. The Sardinians under discussion are majority EN farmer from the Near East with some WHG picked up in Europe. One could say that Sardinians generally represent the original farmers from the eastern Mediterranean with some addition of WHG. Those EN farmers spread along both the northern and southern Mediterranean coasts, and so calling them (and Sardinians) Mediterraneans actually makes a great deal of sense. It is the collection of alleles which is common not only along the Mediterranean coasts but which subsequently moved inland into central and northern Europe, into the more northern and eastern parts of the Near East, and even south into Africa.

    In this regard, you seem to be unaware that not only do central and northern Europeans have a lot of EEF, but they have other Near Eastern ancestry which came to them from the Iran Neolithic via the Indo-Europeans. Furthermore, modern Near Easterners, including Levantines, now have majority ancestry from places that are far from the Mediterranean. Or aren't you aware that EEF is lower in the Near East, including the Levant, than in southern Europe? A lot happened in the Near East in the 5,000 years since the first farmers left. So, the kinds of comparisons you make and percentages you pull out of your hat obfuscate rather than clarify.

    Furthermore, you seem to have very little grasp of the actual "appearance" of Spaniards, Portuguese, Greeks etc. if you think that southern Italians are vastly different looking. You really shouldn't rely on pictures posted by people who have never left their own countries and probably rarely leave their mothers' basements.

    As a matter of fact, if that picture is of you, you're more "Med" looking by your definition than many, many southern Italians.

    Furthermore, you may realize by now that you have received an infraction for the use of Nordicist, derogatory terms. Next time you'll get more points. You're not on theapricity or whatever now.

  16. #16
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    BTW, spite not overlapping with Spanyards, on more than a DNA-PCA we saw Toscans closer to Northern Italians than to South Italians, North Italians very close to Southern French and North Spanyards (contacts) - Southern Italians/Sicilians are close to Greeks and Askhenazes people as a whole when Sardinians are apart - Italians form the most auDNA "spred" people in Europe. But PCAs are PCAs...
    There is more genetic variation in Italy than in any other European country, yes. That doesn't mean that even Northern Italians aren't "Mediterraneans", as are the southern French and the Iberians and the Greeks and on and on. It has to do with autosomal percentages, not just PCAs, and it doesn't necessarily correlate with stereotypes about what constitutes a "Mediterranean" appearance.

    "Appearance" snps are, as you say, a very small part of one's total genetic make-up, and also, imo, they aren't "tied" to other parts of the genome. So, recessive genes brought into the gene pool by perhaps minority ancestry can appear in offspring, more so where there is more of that recessive ancestry, and more so in particular if a founder population happened to carry a lot of those recessive appearance genes and then through isolation those genes drifted to dominance. I think that's what happened in my father's area, for what it's worth.

    So, although he would always plot in the northern Appennines genetically (on a PCA), and not in far northern Europe, and would have typical admixture percentages for an Italian of his area, a skier from the Appennino Parmense can look like this (Giuliano Razzoli). My paternal grandfather was this type.


    Likewise, you can also, as I pointed out a couple of years ago, get a gorgeous northern German soccer player like Mats Hummels:


    As to the particulars of your post, indeed Tuscans, even southern Tuscans from near the Lazio border, are closer genetically to Northern Italians (Emilians specifically) than to Romans of Lazio,much less southern Italians. We are discussing this topic in terms of IBD sharing on this thread if you're interested.
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...180#post498180

    As to the northern Italians versus Iberians, that's another object lesson, in my opinion, of how similar Admixture percentages or closeness on a PCA may have nothing to do with recent gene flow. According to Ralph and Coop there hasn't been any IBD sharing between these two groups in thousands of years. It's different with France, as there is evidence of gene flow from the Gallic migrations of the first millennium BC. There's also some indication of gene flow from the Balkans. Both of those are attested historically.

    See:
    Ralph and Coop:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

  17. #17
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Some more examples:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

  18. #18
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    And another batch:
    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    My father's sisters had hair this color:

    [IMG][/IMG]

  19. #19
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Final batch for now:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

  20. #20
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Some more...they're becoming extinct as a separate group. I'd like to capture them before it happens.







    Both of the women above are totally typical of my father's village.



    A particularly close cousin of mine






    This is the Coat of Arms above the door to my paternal grandmother's home in the center of the village, and above the gate to the village itself:


    Plaque in the wall


    The countryside. You can see why they have a short growing season.

    Lagastrello



    Lago Verde:


    Lago Santo:


    Mountains around Lago Santo








    It's by no stretch of the imagination "sunny Italy". :)

  21. #21
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It's one thing to say it's 1000 meters (actually 1100 meters or over 3600 feet) above sea level, or to say it's mountainous, or to say it's isolated, but you have to see it from the air. Some founder effect and drift and there you go...

    I don't think they were getting much gene flow from the south. Whatever there was, was coming from Emilia.


  22. #22
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    It just remains to say that as you go south, the elevation gets even higher, 1600 meters above sea level. Monte Sillara, also in the Park, is southwest of them, so no exit that way. You have to zig zag back east and then south along the valleys to find the pass into Toscana just north of Lagostrello, at 1400 feet above sea level.

    From the records I've found, most of them have been there since at least 1000 A.D., although they got dribs and drabs of people over the centuries, usually men who liked the freedom that isolation gave them. The only overlord was the very distant Bishop of Parma, and I'm sure even his emissaries didn't want to take a mule train up there very often. I can't imagine a woman choosing it. My mother hated it up there, especially the cold and the lack of color, and that there were more cows than people. :)

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-14
    Posts
    500
    Points
    10,821
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,821, Level: 31
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 429
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Country: Italy



    Thanks for the explanation and for the beautiful video. Now I get that it's difficult to reach Tuscany from there, meaning a natural barrier for gene flow. So, it makes sense the border being exactly there, as sometimes borders are based on terrain.
    My appologies to your mom, but I loved the area. This is my natural habitat. I appreciate pretty much nature, mountains, tranquility... Of course, though I love the winter weather from relatively high latitudes/altitudes, some colors, some life at spring and summer would help.
    And I'm not that fun of crowd, too big cities etc., while my siblings apparently don't have problem with it (I must be a black sheep). :) Plus, altitude guarantee milder summers. Heat is my "green kryptonite". je je je
    Now, imagine a polar bear in Libyan desert. It's me where I live. I guess my sweat glands will collapse soon. ah ah ah
    Hope I'm not messing up your thread. :)

  24. #24
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,305
    Points
    279,166
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,166, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Thanks for the explanation and for the beautiful video. Now I get that it's difficult to reach Tuscany from there, meaning a natural barrier for gene flow. So, it makes sense the border being exactly there, as sometimes borders are based on terrain.
    My appologies to your mom, but I loved the area. This is my natural habitat. I appreciate pretty much nature, mountains, tranquility... Of course, though I love the winter weather from relatively high latitudes/altitudes, some colors, some life at spring and summer would help.
    And I'm not that fun of crowd, too big cities etc., while my siblings apparently don't have problem with it (I must be a black sheep). :) Plus, altitude guarantee milder summers. Angela, if I were Superman, heat would be my green kryptonite. je je je
    Now, imagine a polar bear in Libyan desert. It's me where I live. I guess my sweat glands will collapse soon. ah ah ah
    Hope I'm not messing up your thread. :)
    Not at all. I appreciate being able to discuss it.

    As I said, I do think there was some gene flow, but it was from Emilia south, not the other way around. My mother comes from the other side of the Apennines, from Villafranca and Bagnone and Liciana Nardi, and her father from La Spezia, and they had no desire to go up there, whereas my father's family, when they had some money, went to Sarzana.

    That's all over and above the fact that before 1920 it was a hellish journey to go south.

    It's clear in the language of the Lunigiana, which is a blend of Emilian and Tuscan. Even Spezzino is a very Emilian influenced Ligurian, very different from Zenese. I understand Spezzino, but only get about half of Zenese.

    A song in the dialect of Parma: the city version is called Pramzan


    Toy Story:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehlGBoXgeTk

    This is the Lunigiana dialect from right over the border:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVWaxiRs3kM

    Spezzino:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om1EP35NDnQ

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-14
    Posts
    500
    Points
    10,821
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,821, Level: 31
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 429
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Not at all. I appreciate being able to discuss it.
    As I said, I do think there was some gene flow, but it was from Emilia south, not the other way around. My mother comes from the other side of the Apennines, from Villafranca and Bagnone and Liciana Nardi, and her father from La Spezia, and they had no desire to go up there, whereas my father's family, when they had some money, went to Sarzana.
    That's all over and above the fact that before 1920 it was a hellish journey to go south.
    It's clear in the language of the Lunigiana, which is a blend of Emilian and Tuscan. Even Spezzino is a very Emilian influenced Ligurian, very different from Zenese. I understand Spezzino, but only get about half of Zenese.
    A song in the dialect of Parma: the city version is called Pramzan

    Toy Story:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehlGBoXgeTk
    This is the Lunigiana dialect from right over the border:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVWaxiRs3kM
    Spezzino:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om1EP35NDnQ
    As you could notice, just one of my great-grandparents was born in a supposed isolated area, in the Alps. I have doubts it's really isolated though. I guess it's in fact in a corridor. Anyway, I found a match of my mother who was born close to there, a bit North, and this match is not that different from her, which surprised me a bit, since my mother has just ~25% of DNA from that area. Plus, we couldn't find a common ancestor. The matching is possibly explained by some local substructure.

    Thanks for the videos. Nice to hear your dialects, even if I can't understand them, as expected. People should put subtitles in these videos. ah ah I'm also glad they are not lost, as an important cultural patrimony imo. The chorus was great, btw. I'm just passionate with this kind of folk music, since childhood.
    Here you have some Talian from Serra Gaúcha, in Rio Grande do Sul. The character is "Naneto Pipetta", folkloric in my area. Kind of a buffon. Not sure you'll understand it, but...
    Last edited by Regio X; 18-04-19 at 04:28.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •