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Thread: Celtic-Italic(Latin)-Germanic ties for the fun

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    Celtic-Italic(Latin)-Germanic ties for the fun



    Based it's true upon modern languages for the most, I found that astonishly Germanic seemed closer to Italic than to Celtic languages for the lexicon concerning the body and even some others parts of languages (I don't speak of grammar here) - "close" concerning the apparent roots, not the phonetic results of course!
    Only statistical weakness based upon too less words? Celts too found of "pictureful" words replacing the basic ones? (yet, the difference between Gaelic and Brittonic is striking spite they are Celtic based and geographically close)

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    astonishingly, excuse me

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    Could you provide some examples?

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    I have always found it curious that Italian and Dutch use the verb to be to form the present perfect for a certain group of verbs, for example, expressing movement (sono andato; ik ben gegaan). I think this happens in French as well (je suis parti), but not Spanish (where I think the verb to have is used consistently for all verbs). I'm less familiar with German, but I think it's a similar usage as found in Dutch.

    Anyway, does anyone know what the situation is in the Celtic languages?
    Misseri e sceccu cu tuttâ tistera
    comu vi l’haju a diri, a vastunati
    ca mancu haju Sali di salera!

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    I've also wondered about the word "to sit" (from Anglo-saxon sittan). You can see the shared entymology with Dutch zitten.

    I've always wondered whether Italian sedere (from Latin sedere) ultimately has a shared indo-european origin with the above Germanic words.

    Intererestingly, the Sicilian is assittari.

    Would interesting to know the Celtic forms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolan View Post
    Could you provide some examples?
    It was only based on some examples with amateur rebuilt forms upon modern languages so... But concerning body I found that very surprising. I 'll try to give you some examples after having looked if i can find more serious reconstructed forms. I speak here of words, notof grammar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey D View Post
    I've also wondered about the word "to sit" (from Anglo-saxon sittan). You can see the shared entymology with Dutch zitten.

    I've always wondered whether Italian sedere (from Latin sedere) ultimately has a shared indo-european origin with the above Germanic words.

    Intererestingly, the Sicilian is assittari.

    Would interesting to know the Celtic forms.
    not the Bible but it seems to me yes the germanic couples of 'to sit', 'to set' (and ? 'to settle' - 'saddle' seem a far loan to old-French?), 'zitten', 'zetten', ?'sitzen', ?'setzen' have a common origin with latin 'sed-' (it- 'sedere', found in fr- 'siège', 'asseoir', 'assiette', maybe 'sédatif') - Celtic Breton 'asezañ' (to sit down), 'sez' ('siège', "head quarter") surely a late enough latin loanword because we have Welsh 'hedd' (Bret- 'hez'?) regular brittonic form : "peace" (look 'sédatif') - Welsh 'to sit down' is 'eistedd' not sure of etymology - Scott-Gaelic 'suidh' -
    &: Slavic: 'sed-' ? (Czech 'sedet' 'to sit', too lazy to look at others!) - surely a PIE word...

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    French 'selle' (saddle) one more! Spanish 'silla' (chair), 'sillon' (armchair)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey D View Post
    I have always found it curious that Italian and Dutch use the verb to be to form the present perfect for a certain group of verbs, for example, expressing movement (sono andato; ik ben gegaan). I think this happens in French as well (je suis parti), but not Spanish (where I think the verb to have is used consistently for all verbs). I'm less familiar with German, but I think it's a similar usage as found in Dutch.

    Anyway, does anyone know what the situation is in the Celtic languages?
    Celtic langages :
    Supposed they were no verb ‘to be’ in the Isles Celtic
    but there is a verbe cael in welsh (basis : ca(f)-/ce-) to form some idiomatics : meaning : ‘to find’ but used today in specific way ; ‘to find’ is rather translated by other idiomatics : «dod o hyd a» ‘’to come from along with’, or ffeindio sometimes
    Cael : Ga i fynd ? = Gâf fi fynd ? ‘May I go’ ? / A gâf fi ‘ch helpu chi ? ‘May I help you ?(polite) -
    (Y)mae ef wedi cael ei furdro. ‘He has been murdered.’ (passive way : « is/stands he after to find his to murder ») cf French : « Il a trouvé la mort à ... » (« He has found his death in... »)
    in Breton kaved/kavoud = ‘to find’ has been transformed into ‘kaoud’ to form verbal noun ‘to have’ (same root as cael)
    today Breton opposes the simple possession (to hold) to property :
    (E)ma ur c’harr-tan ganin. = Ganin ema ur c’harr. «A car is/stands with-me » (‘I have a car at hand.’, not by force my own)
    Ur c’harr-tan am eus. = Me am eus ur c’harr-tan. ‘I have a car’. (it’s my property)
    Welsh : (Y)mae car gyda fi. = (Y)mae car efo fi. « « A car is/stands with-me. »
    otherwise Welsh and Breton have piau and piaouañ = ‘to possess’, ‘to have in property’
    & : the true meaning of eus (Welsh oes) is ‘there is’, ‘there are’ : to translate ‘I have’, ‘you have’, Breton says « to me there is », « to you there is » # « with me stands »…
    & : Welsh has had the same structure (« to me there is ») in High Middle Ages but it has not perdured.
    Gaelic : the same way as in Welsh - a s a whole Gaelic grammar seems a bit simpler than the Brittonic grammar:
    Tha cu agam. ‘I have a dog.’ (« Is dog with-me »)


    +
    Breton: C'hwi ho peus achuet ho labour. = Achuet ho peus ho labour. 'You have finished your work.'
    ~= Achu(et) eo ho labour ganeoc'h. = C'hwi zo achu(et) ho labour ganeoc'h. " " " " ". ("finished is your work with-you", "you are finished your work with-you")
    The last ways are more celtic in origin.
    Last time I'll try to compare the different uses of 'to be' and 'to have' as auxilliary verbs to express past in some languages; it's not simple and sometimes dialects are more precise than the standard states languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey D View Post
    I've always wondered whether Italian sedere (from Latin sedere) ultimately has a shared indo-european origin with the above Germanic words.
    Intererestingly, the Sicilian is assittari.
    The Sicilian assittari (I think it exists in other dialects/languages of south Italy) derives from the Latin assideo, assidere (>adsideo) that is composed of Latin prefix ad- ‎(“to, towards, at”) +‎ Latin verb sedeō, sidere ‎(“sit; settle down”). The Italian sedere is from Latin verb sedeō, sedere/sidere, the same of Sicilian assittari without the prefix ad.

    The Latin prefix ad has a cognate in Old Irish and English. Latin ad is the same of English at.

    "From Proto-Celtic *ad-, from Proto-Indo-European *ád ‎(“near, at”). Cognates include Latin ad and English at."

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ad-#Latin

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    French 'selle' (saddle) one more! Spanish 'silla' (chair), 'sillon' (armchair)
    French selle is from the Latin sella.

    Etymology
    For *sedla, from Proto-Indo-European *sed-, whence Latin sedeō ‎(“I sit”). The same formation as Proto-Germanic *sadulaz ‎(“saddle”).


    Like in French, in Italian sella is a saddle, a seat for the rider (horse, bike, motorbike...).







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    thanks, I thought 'saddle' was cognate but introduced through romance way into England (the -d- in proto-germanic would be before the Grimm mutes??? before -d- -> t? just a question)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The Sicilian assittari (I think it exists in other dialects/languages of south Italy) derives from the Latin assideo, assidere (>adsideo) that is composed of Latin prefix ad- ‎(“to, towards, at”) +‎ Latin verb sedeō, sidere ‎(“sit; settle down”). The Italian sedere is from Latin verb sedeō, sedere/sidere, the same of Sicilian assittari without the prefix ad.

    The Latin prefix ad has a cognate in Old Irish and English. Latin ad is the same of English at.

    "From Proto-Celtic *ad-, from Proto-Indo-European *ád ‎(“near, at”). Cognates include Latin ad and English at."

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ad-#Latin



    French selle is from the Latin sella.

    Etymology
    For *sedla, from Proto-Indo-European *sed-, whence Latin sedeō ‎(“I sit”). The same formation as Proto-Germanic *sadulaz ‎(“saddle”).


    Like in French, in Italian sella is a saddle, a seat for the rider (horse, bike, motorbike...).






    i do not know where you found your meaning, but saddle in Latin is

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sagma


    https://books.google.com.au/books?id...0latin&f=false
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    seat is sede

    chair is sedia

    as a chair and a seat are different so should sedia and sede

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    i do not know where you found your meaning, but saddle in Latin is

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sagma
    That's the saddle of a pack-animal, and sagma is originally Greek, not Latin. In Latin is a loanword from the Greek.

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    *sed- Sanskrit sîdati "he sit down"
    Greek hezomai <- *sed-yomai "to sit down"
    the latin sella i curious at first sight because it could be taken for an evolved modern form but if coming from implosive position like in **sedla it's less surprising (and we have some latin 'd' >> 'dh' (like soft english 'th')>> 'l' : lacrima <- *dacr- - the evolution of "my" 'dh' into 'r' or 'l' is common in certains dialects)
    @Sile: I agree, sede is no exactly sedia but they are cognates or derived from the same cognate root

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    Some basic words in celtic, Latin and Germanic langages


    I have no proto-germanic lexicon at hand, some forumers could cmplete my approximative reconstructions with attested forms or forms supposed by scholars ?
    ¤ : some reconstructed forms of mine, not in their genuine origin forms but reliable enough concerning consonnants evolution at some stage and useful for comparisons between cognates :

    * : reconstructed forms found in scholars works, sometime dated

    at first sight my impression is confirmed; it's true languages evolve and put new words in place of ancient ones; but the modern forms can also measure the more or less degree of proximity at some stage by the number of cognates lost - I thank beforehand the help given by persons possessing date for ancient germanic I have not.


    Celtic Latin Germanic English


    the body :
    Br- ¤pen(d)-, G- ¤ken(d) ← ¤kw- ? caput, capitis *haub-t, AS- haefod, NL hoodf, Sw- huvud head

    Br- ¤tal- + ? front, frontis forehead (front)

    Br- ¤licat, G- ¤sul- oculus *aug-, AS êage, Sw- ogon, NL oog eye

    Br- ¤skobarn/¤klus-t, G- ¤klus-° auris, auriculus *aus-, ¤aur-, AS êare, NL oor, Isl- eyra ear

    Br- ¤frig- (fron-d ← *sr-) G- sron- nasus *nas-, AS nous, Sw- näsa nose

    too much possible roots os, oris (bocca) ¤munϸ, AS muth, NL mond, Isl- munnr mouth

    Br- ¤webus- labra, laborum ¤lip, NL lip, Sw- läpp lip

    Br- ¤dant-, G- ¤dent- dens, dentis *i-tan → NL tand, Sw- tand tooth

    mentum (see ‘mouth’) chin

    Br- gen- /¤karb-, G- ¤karb-/¤gell- maxilla jaw

    Br- ¤bokk-/¤grud-. G- ¤grud- gena, maxilla cheek

    Br- ¤kal-on-, G- krid-° cor, cordis ¤kert-, AS heorte, Isl hjarta heart

    Br- ¤keb-n/kem-n?/¤kul-, G- ¤kul dorsum, tergum ¤hrug-, AS hryeg, NL rug, All rücke back (ridge)

    Br- ¤bolg- G- bolg- venter, ventris ¤balg-, O-Teut- balgis, AS baelig, Isl- belgr belly see 'budget' <- Fr- dial- 'bouget':little bag <- Gaulish 'bolg' + /bellow)


    it's a beginning I'll try to put my data in tableaux

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Some basic words in celtic, Latin and Germanic langages


    I have no proto-germanic lexicon at hand, some forumers could complete my approximative reconstructions with attested forms or forms supposed by scholars ?
    ¤ : some reconstructed forms of mine, not in their genuine origin forms but reliable enough concerning consonnants evolution and useful for comparisons between cognates :
    * : reconstructed forms found in scholars works, sometime dated




    CELTIC LATIN GERMANIC English
    Br- ¤pen(d)-, G- ¤ken(d) ← ¤kw-
    Br- ¤tal-
    Br- ¤licat, G- ¤sul-
    Br- ¤skobarn/¤klus-t, G- ¤klus-°
    Br- ¤frig- (fron-d ← *sr-) G- sron-


    Br- ¤webus-
    Br- ¤dant-, G- ¤dent-

    Br- gen- /¤karb-, G- ¤karb-/¤gell-
    Br- ¤bokk-/¤grud-. G- ¤grud-
    Br- ¤kal-on-, G- krid-°
    Br- ¤keb-n/kem-n?/¤kul-, G- ¤kul
    Br- ¤bolg- G- bolg-
    Br- ¤brusk- ?,
    Br- ¤brond-
    Br- ¤brakk-i, G- brak- ?/¤gard-n,
    Br- ¤skod-i, G- ¤gual-an
    Br- ¤elin-, G- ilin-°
    Br- ¤lam-, G- ¤lam- (← palm-?)
    Br- ¤bis-, G- ¤mêr-
    Br- ¤glin-/glun-, G- glun-
    Br- ¤traget-, G- *traget-
    Br- ¤krok(k)-n-, G- krokk-n-


    Br- ¤walt-, G- ¤walt-
    Br- ¤blew-¤blego - ? G-
    Br- ¤klun-
    Br- ¤kos-, G-¤kos
    Br- ¤klun-, ¤les-, G- ¤gor-un°
    Br- ¤mord-wit, G-
    Br- ¤askorn-, G- ¤knam-
    caput, capitis
    front, frontis
    oculus
    auris, auriculus
    nasus
    os, oris (bocca)
    labra, laborum
    dens, dentis
    mentum (see ‘mouth’)
    maxilla
    gena, maxilla
    cor, cordis
    dorsum, tergum
    venter, ventris
    pectus, pectoris («chista»)
    mamma, mammae°
    brachium, lacertus
    umerus, armus
    cubitus
    manus
    digitus
    genu, genus, genuculus
    pes, pedis
    cutis (pellis)


    capillus, crinis
    pilus
    clunis
    crus, cruris
    coxa, coxendis
    femur, femoris (coxa)
    os?- ossis
    *haub-t, AS- haefod, NL hoodf, Sw- huvud
    ?
    *aug-, AS êage, Sw- ogon, NL oog
    *aus-, ¤aur-, AS êare, NL oor, Isl- eyra
    *nas-, AS nous, Sw- näsa
    ¤munϸ, AS muth, NL mond, Isl- munnr
    ¤lip, NL lip, Sw- läpp
    *i-tan → NL tand, Sw- tand
    ? S- haka NL kin
    ¤kêk- ? NL kaak, Sw- käka
    ¤kêk- ? AS céace, NL kaak, SW- käke
    ¤kert-, AS heorte, Isl hjarta
    ¤hrug-, AS hryeg, NL rug, All rücke
    ¤balg-, O-Teut- balgis, AS baelig, Isl- belgr
    ¤brêst- ? NL borst, Germ- brustkorb
    ¤brêst- ? NL borst, Isl- brijost Sw- bröst
    ¤arm-, AS earm, NL arm, Sw- arm
    ¤skulder, NL schouder, Sw- skuldra
    ¤el-bog-, NL elebog, Sw- armbåge
    ¤hand-, AS hand/hond, NL hand, Isl- hönd
    ¤fing-r- NL vinger, Sw- finger
    Got- kniu, AS cnêow, NL knie, Isl- kne
    ¤fôt- Got- fôt, NL voet, Sw- fot
    ¤hud-, All- haut, NL huid, Sw- hud
    + loan ?: °fil- ?
    Sw- hårstrå/här
    ¤hâr-, AS- NL + All haar, Sw- hår
    ??? NL bil Sw- skinka
    ¤bên-, All- bein, NL been, Sw- ben
    ¤hop-t ? All- hüfte, NL heup, Sw- höft
    ? All- schenkel, NL dij, Sw- lår
    ? AS bân, All- knochen, NL been, Sw- ben
    head
    forehead, ‘front’
    eye
    ear
    nose
    mouth
    lip
    tooth
    chin
    jaw
    cheek
    heart
    back
    belly (bellow)
    chest
    breast
    arm
    shoulder
    elbow
    hand
    finger
    knee
    foot
    skin, hide
    film
    head hair
    body hair
    « bottom » flesh
    leg
    haunch
    thigh
    bone


    ¤klus- ‘clust, cluas is to be associated to ¤klu-/klew- ;klewed, cluintinn « to hear », see Gr- cleo-,
    *hlaud- (loud, NL luid, All- laut)
    ¤krid- in Gaelic corresponds to modern credd, kreis in britt-, and sred in some Slavic langages all for « middle » -Slavics have srdce or close forms for « heart » and I wonder if these words are not cognates, I-E could have differentiated words of derived meanings by the length of vowels, what could explain the variants ; the cor, cordis meanings (see « heart » and « middle »/ « inside » are so often associated in different European languages)
    ¤kul- Welsh cil, br- kil, (« back » of everything, not only body, see Lat cul- )
    elbog : the first part ‘el-’ could be associated to Celtics il/el-in ???
    & : for ‘mamma’ modern romance tongues have : sîn, seno, seio, seno, sein formed upon a Lat- root ‘sin-’ we find in Fr- sinueux, sinuosité’ - for Celtic *bron- I hesitate between a *br(-g) root we find in bryn, brenn, bre ‘hill’ and a link with German brunn, bronn ‘well’, ‘source’ (eien + mammenn in Breton)
    mentum is to associated to Germ- ¤munth- : the notions of ‘chink’, ‘cheek’, ‘maxillar’, ‘jaw’, even ‘mouth’ and ‘visage’ are so often mixed in popular langages...
    I’LL TRY TO FIND MORE RELIABLE (ANCIENT) GERMANIC AND CELTIC FORMS IN MY DATA FOR I-E ROOTS BUT IT NEEDS TIME FOR THE CLASSIFICATION IS BY PRIMITIVE ROOT, NOT BY MEANING. But even under these forms, the lexicons I give permit to see Celtic words are rather less often common with Latin words than are Germznic words for this very basic and conservative part of the lexicon, except for some body parts less stable.

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    I'm sorry I posted a "tableau" and the result is this messy thing which will oblige readers to devine which words are going along which other words (French idiomatic!). Do know someone the way to turn this difficulty linked to breadth limits? Thanks in advance.

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    Dutch is mix of German and???

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    English is the result of French people trying to speak Dutch.

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    Dutch is a mix as every language; but here we speak of basis of languages: concerning the basis, Dutch is a Germanic language of its own, like German, Swedish, Norvegian, Danish, Flemish, Icelandic and so on... English only can be looked at as a very composite tongue, even if its syntax is still rather Germanic (evolved as other tongues), with light Celtic and French influences; but in its morphology it integrated French (so Romance) and Latin suffixes and prefixes; concerning vocabulary, English is almost a three-ways language (West-Germanic, French and Latin; and even, then for Germanics we can put Anglo-Saxon (+ Close Frisian) and Danish, for French Norman-French and Angevin-French.
    Its seems to me Southern Dialects of English show more French (Plantagenêts: Angevin) infuence in pronounciation than Northern dialects and Scot, spite things are not so simplistic. Amateur view.
    Laguages loan words, for the most for new objects, sometime new concepts. What is striking in English is that it loaned long ago Romance words for things it had already Germanic words for. Kind of double-lexicon.

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