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Thread: Minoan Civilization survived into the Iron Age

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    Minoan Civilization survived into the Iron Age

    So many things we thought were true are being overturned not just by genetics, but by new archaeological discoveries.

    See:
    http://www.tornosnews.gr/en/greek-ne...treasures.html
    "The latest discoveries on Crete at the site of the ancient city of Knossos suggest that the capital of Minoan Civilization was far larger and more impacting than experts believed.

    Scientists already new that Knossos was Europe's oldest city and ruled over the massive trade empire during the Bronze age, nevertheless, new evidence suggests that the Minoans may have actually survived into the Iron Age.

    Even though the ancient city was previously thought to have perished around 1200 B.C. afther the volcanic eruption of Thera on Santorini, new artifacts discovered by a team led by a University of Cincinnati assistant professor of classics, Antonis Kotsonas, suggest that it was much larger and richer than was previously thought. Europe's oldest city, the majestic site of the Greek Bronze Age, was the seat of power of the mythological King Minos and the home of the enigmatic labyrinth...This civilization is widely acclaimed as the birthplace for all western civilization, and
    the Minoans managed a maritime empire across the entire Mediterranean basin and beyond. When Rome was not even so much as an idea, Minoans built the first pavedd roads...recent fieldwork at the ancient city of Knossos on the Greek island of Crete finds that during the early Iron Age (1100 to 600 BC), the city was rich in imports and was nearly three times larger than what was believed from earlier excavations."

    It's wonderful to go there and see this:


    And this:


    And there's nothing like standing in the real spot, feeling their sun's warmth, breathing in the scent of their breezes, feeling the texture of the stone underneath your fingertips, but I do like 3D reconstructions as well:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSvyv-B2uDY


    See also:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btGGTkext5k

    I'm more ambivalent about the liberties some classicists take with the Prince of the Lilies. :)



    I don't know of any liberties taken with "The Ladies of Crete"; good thing too. :)









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    Minoan mtDNA.
    N#=37
    H 30%, HV6-17 8%. K 16.20%, T1 2.70%, T2 16.20%, J 2.70%, I5a 8.10%, X 2.70%, W 2.70%, U5a 2.70%, U8b1b 2.70%

    When founder effects are exuded.
    N#=31
    H 35.5%, HV6-17 3.2%, K 13%, T1 3.2%, T2 19.4%, J 3.2%, I5a 3.2% X 3.2%, W 3.2%, U5a 3.2%, U8b1b 3.2%

    Modern and Ancient European Haplogroup Frequencies
    West Eurasian Haplogroup frequencies

    Minoan haplogroup frequencies are most similar to Neo Europe/Anatolia. They belong to some typical EEF subclades as well; T2b, J1c, HV6-17. But they also have I and T1a4, which are at 0% in over 500 EEF mtDNAs. T1a4 is rare. I only know of one example and it's from FTDNA. U5a though very rare did exist in Central/East Neolithic Europe, so might not be from the Steppe.

    My guess would be that Minoans were mostly Neolithic Aegean, with significant CHG(not Iran Neolithic), and some EHG/maybe Steppe.

    Europe vs West Asian mtDNA Frequencies
    Minoan score xFounder effects.
    Europe=16%
    Mid East=6.4%

    I don't have many samples from Turkey and no samples from Cyprus. Maybe they would score mostly in the European cluster.

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    It is wonderful indeed.
    The new thing is that the city thrived 600 - 1100 BC.
    Very little is known about that 'dark period'.
    I wonder whether the Phoenicians were involved.

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    I think the commonality with other areas/trbes shows clear that Minoans were not IE, at least at mt DNA.

    it is rather Mediterrenean developed its own genes and cultures.
    and possibly connected through sea roads,
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    Even though the ancient city was previously thought to have perished around 1200 B.C. afther the volcanic eruption of Thera on Santorini,
    the eruption was around 1650 BC

    new evidence suggests that the Minoans may have actually survived into the Iron Age.
    In the XV-XIII centuries BC it's attested Linear B which is used to write down Greek language, so that the eruption left Minoans without ships, their economy collapsed, and surely many people died in coastal cities... and that was profited by mainland Mycenians to take the island and their goods. So to say about Minoans in the Iron Age is like to tell that modern Ankara is Galatian and that it is bigger than the old Ancyra.

    It's quite common that mainstream media "translate" archaeological data without enough knowledge about it telling thereafter things that are not true, that in the best cases, this case is to me worst as it uses magnificient words just to have more cliks to win more money with adds ("Minoans", "impacting", "richer", "majestic", "King Minos", "birthplace of civilization", "maritime empire", "larger").

    As ever it must be taken much more care with common press than with scientific gurus.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    till 1200 BC Minoan culture survived be it under the rule of the Myceneans

    1100-600 BC, I don't know whether you can call it Minoan

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    till 1200 BC Minoan culture survived be it under the rule of the Myceneans

    1100-600 BC, I don't know whether you can call it Minoan
    The important thing, I think, is that the "Dark Ages" in the Aegean weren't as "dark" as we thought. Either the disruptions in the more western areas were not as large, or they recovered earlier than the cultures to the east.

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    it is called the dark ages because written history dissapeared for 5-600 years
    and because nobody realy knows what caused the end of the settled rulers and societies in the Middle East around 1200 BC

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The term 'Minoan' shouldn't have been used in the first place. Those who are sane should adopt terms like 'Neolithic Cretan', 'Bronze Age Cretan', 'Iron Age Cretan' etc and 'Minoan' proper should be labeled Palatial Cretan.

    For some reason though, scholars thought that it was ok to use the name of one (or two) mythical to semi-mythical kings who may have lived before or after the Palatial Cretan civilization.

    But also
    "This civilization is widely acclaimed as the birthplace for all western civilization"

    Ok. Whatever. The birthplace of western civilization is medieval Western Europe.

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    Interesting the data firehaired post,

    especially U8b1b

    Don't you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    The term 'Minoan' shouldn't have been used in the first place. Those who are sane should adopt terms like 'Neolithic Cretan', 'Bronze Age Cretan', 'Iron Age Cretan' etc and 'Minoan' proper should be labeled Palatial Cretan.

    For some reason though, scholars thought that it was ok to use the name of one (or two) mythical to semi-mythical kings who may have lived before or after the Palatial Cretan civilization.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    But also
    "This civilization is widely acclaimed as the birthplace for all western civilization"

    Ok. Whatever. The birthplace of western civilization is medieval Western Europe.
    Exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Interesting the data firehaired post,

    especially U8b1b

    Don't you think?
    Why especially U8b1b? It's a rare hg. It's been found in Neolithic Turkey and Europe. It's more evidence the Minoans had a lot of Aegean Neolithic blood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    The term 'Minoan' shouldn't have been used in the first place. Those who are sane should adopt terms like 'Neolithic Cretan', 'Bronze Age Cretan', 'Iron Age Cretan' etc and 'Minoan' proper should be labeled Palatial Cretan.

    For some reason though, scholars thought that it was ok to use the name of one (or two) mythical to semi-mythical kings who may have lived before or after the Palatial Cretan civilization.

    But also
    "This civilization is widely acclaimed as the birthplace for all western civilization"

    Ok. Whatever. The birthplace of western civilization is medieval Western Europe.
    It truly started in Renaissance Europe, when science, free thought and capitalism was set in motion.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It truly started in Renaissance Europe, when science, free thought and capitalism was set in motion.
    are you a Christian ?

    cause only christians claim such,

    they forgot the massacres of scientists of antique, like Ypateia etc etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    The term 'Minoan' shouldn't have been used in the first place. Those who are sane should adopt terms like 'Neolithic Cretan', 'Bronze Age Cretan', 'Iron Age Cretan' etc and 'Minoan' proper should be labeled Palatial Cretan.

    For some reason though, scholars thought that it was ok to use the name of one (or two) mythical to semi-mythical kings who may have lived before or after the Palatial Cretan civilization.

    But also
    "This civilization is widely acclaimed as the birthplace for all western civilization"

    Ok. Whatever. The birthplace of western civilization is medieval Western Europe.
    Change your freaking tone. Am I clear? Who the heck are you to call reputable scholars insane because they use a general term, especially because it's part of an announcement to the general public?

    As for the supposed substance of your post, go back to school and take an introductory university class in Western Civilization. Anyone who would write that last sentence has obviously either never taken one or didn't understand what he was taught.

    For a supposed Greek not to know that Western Civilization began with Greece boggles the imagination. You are Greek, right? Or not?

    @Yetos,
    I don't even know how to respond to that. Maybe you should take that course too.

    Before you pontificate, inform yourselves.

    " In the history of civilization Crete was the first link in the European chain. " - Will Durant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Why especially U8b1b? It's a rare hg. It's been found in Neolithic Turkey and Europe. It's more evidence the Minoans had a lot of Aegean Neolithic blood.



    if not wrong it is also in Basquez and atlantic ocean.

    and we know mtDNA is not moving-roam as Y-DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    till 1200 BC Minoan culture survived be it under the rule of the Myceneans

    1100-600 BC, I don't know whether you can call it Minoan

    Except Mycenenans there is also a still unknown 'tribe' called minyans,

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    the eruption was around 1650 BC



    In the XV-XIII centuries BC it's attested Linear B which is used to write down Greek language, so that the eruption left Minoans without ships, their economy collapsed, and surely many people died in coastal cities... and that was profited by mainland Mycenians to take the island and their goods. So to say about Minoans in the Iron Age is like to tell that modern Ankara is Galatian and that it is bigger than the old Ancyra.

    It's quite common that mainstream media "translate" archaeological data without enough knowledge about it telling thereafter things that are not true, that in the best cases, this case is to me worst as it uses magnificient words just to have more cliks to win more money with adds ("Minoans", "impacting", "richer", "majestic", "King Minos", "birthplace of civilization", "maritime empire", "larger").

    As ever it must be taken much more care with common press than with scientific gurus.

    not exactly
    until today we know that Dorians manage to invade west Crete, east was eteo-cretan land, means Minoan
    about Mycenenan connection to Crete? it is very-very big,
    But can you tell me when Mycenenans invaded Crete?

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    nothing wrong click

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    The things I said about 'Minoans' are in essence correct, although my tone may not have been proper. There are some concepts based on speculations and educated guesses that sometimes are treated as facts because of some influential people. The 'Greek Dark Ages' or the 'Dorian Invasion' are some of them and this type of research is helpful.

    Saying that 'Minoans' were 'the birthplace for all western civilization' is a weird statement, but for me that's not true for the Classical Greeks either although many people would and have supported that.

    The role of universities created by Catholic Church is underestimated, for example. There was some involvement of ex-'Byzantine' scholars in Renaissance. But the fact that some people in Western Europe rediscovered at some point the ancient Greeks and the Romans isn't enough for me to consider Ancient Greece as 'the cradle of Western civilization'. They read the ancient texts, Roman laws influenced their ideas but internal developments, especially economic were more important.

    I can't fully express what I want because I never managed to master English but what annoys me is when they selectively take some elements of ancient Greek culture, they fit them to the modern understanding (or their understanding) of what 'Western culture' is and they juxtapose the 'ancient Greeks' they have created to other cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    not exactly
    until today we know that Dorians manage to invade west Crete, east was eteo-cretan land, means Minoan
    about Mycenenan connection to Crete? it is very-very big,
    Your statements aren't true.

    “But one tongue with others is mixed,
    ”the poet says;“there dwell Achaeans, there Eteo-Cretans1 proud of heart, there Cydonians and Dorians, too, of waving plumes, and goodly Pelasgians.
    23 Of these peoples, according to Staphylus,4 the Dorians occupy the part towards the east, the Cydonians the western part, the Eteo-Cretans the southern; and to these last belongs the town Prasus, where is the temple of the Dictaean Zeus; whereas the other peoples, since they were more powerful, dwelt in the plains. Now it is reasonable to suppose that the Eteo-Cretans and the Cydonians were autochthonous, and that the others were foreigners, who, according to Andron,5 came from Thessaly, from the country which in earlier times was called Doris, but is now called Hestiaeotis; it was from this country that the Dorians who lived in the neighborhood of Parnassus set out, as he says, and founded Erineüs, Boeüm, and Cytinium, and hence by Homer6 are called "trichaïces."7 However, writers do not accept the account of Andron at all, since he represents the Tetrapolis Doris as being a Tripolis,8 and the metropolis of the Dorians as a mere colony of Thessalians; and they derive the meaning of "trichaïces" either from the "trilophia,"9 or from the fact that the crests were "trichini."10

    The Cydonians are usually treated as non-Greek, most often Anatolian. People would assume the opposite to have been true.

    Source with some comments: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...%3Asection%3D6

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    I am not going to debate a subject about which there is universal agreement because one poster doesn't seem to understand it. In some ways, all of western thought is a coda to Plato. What on earth do you people think the Scholastics, Thomas Aquinas, and on and on were thinking about and writing about in their monasteries and first universities? Likewise, the achievements of Greek art, architecture, literature, and theater are essential to the development of western culture.

    It is beyond bizarre that I have to explain this to a supposed "Greek" of all people.

    For those who didn't take much history on a university level, there are online courses, video courses, and great textbooks.

    Some examples:

    http://www.skilledup.com/courses/wes...europe.1132730

    http://people.duke.edu/~rgp6/major-syllabus-3.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    The things I said about 'Minoans' are in essence correct, although my tone may not have been proper. There are some concepts based on speculations and educated guesses that sometimes are treated as facts because of some influential people. The 'Greek Dark Ages' or the 'Dorian Invasion' are some of them and this type of research is helpful.

    Saying that 'Minoans' were 'the birthplace for all western civilization' is a weird statement, but for me that's not true for the Classical Greeks either although many people would and have supported that.

    The role of universities created by Catholic Church is underestimated, for example. There was some involvement of ex-'Byzantine' scholars in Renaissance. But the fact that some people in Western Europe rediscovered at some point the ancient Greeks and the Romans isn't enough for me to consider Ancient Greece as 'the cradle of Western civilization'. They read the ancient texts, Roman laws influenced their ideas but internal developments, especially economic were more important.

    I can't fully express what I want because I never managed to master English but what annoys me is when they selectively take some elements of ancient Greek culture, they fit them to the modern understanding (or their understanding) of what 'Western culture' is and they juxtapose the 'ancient Greeks' they have created to other cultures.
    Greeks

    Hellenes or Greeks is a unification movement that starts after Hesiodos, and after sea peaoples, and after Dorian southstream roam from Thessaly,
    all before like Mycenenans Cycladetic pelasgian Mycenean Minyan Mirmydones etc are consider forfathers of this unification,

    it is not coincidence that at underworld kingdom, the 3 big judges are not Greeks,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    not exactly
    until today we know that Dorians manage to invade west Crete, east was eteo-cretan land, means Minoan
    about Mycenenan connection to Crete? it is very-very big,
    But can you tell me when Mycenenans invaded Crete?
    I know about Eteo-cretans but to label them as Minoans is like labeling actual Nahuatl tribes as Aztec: they have not more king, neither empire, neither build temples, neither keep their own scripture; the same for Eteo-cretans (no kings, no empire, no palaces, no linear A).

    For the Mycenean question the oracle mode is from 2:00 AM till 4:00 AM

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I know about Eteo-cretans but to label them as Minoans is like labeling actual Nahuatl tribes as Aztec: they have not more king, neither empire, neither build temples, neither keep their own scripture; the same for Eteo-cretans (no kings, no empire, no palaces, no linear A).

    For the Mycenean question the oracle mode is from 2:00 AM till 4:00 AM

    the question about eteo-cretans if they were or if not the same with Minoans,
    has many debates,
    the claim of semitic language is tottaly out of question, since not even ugaritic look like the hieroglyphs, neither are necropolis texts,
    all the rest are open, and that is why i express interest in U8b1b,
    anyway we know that wrote in their language till 6th century BC,

    about Κυδων, well it was known even to Makedonians means bell and was their national fruit in antique, and also in Aeolic minor Asia today Ayvalik
    yet the myth describe him either as son of Minoas, either from Tegea epigonos of Pelasgos,

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