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Thread: Percentage of European & Middle Eastern admixture by ethnic group

  1. #1
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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Post Percentage of European & Middle Eastern admixture by ethnic group

    I realised that many people did not have a clear view of the percentage of European ancestry outside Europe. Goga wrongly believed that Armenians had much higher European ancestry than Indian Brahmins, when in fact Brahmins have about three times more European admixture (15% against 5%) if we exclude shared Near Eastern Neolithic ancestry. Even Mongols scored twice higher (10%) than Armenians. I wanted to make a map of European admixture in Asia, but that will prove difficult because of the huge variations between ethnic groups occupying a same territory in many regions, but especially in India due to the caste system. So instead I will list ethnicities by frequency.

    I will try two ways of calculating the percentage of European autosomal ancestry:

    1) by combining the North European and Atlantic Med components from the Dodecad K12b results. This specifically excludes the Gedrosian, Caucasian and Southwest Asian ancestry that entered the European gene pool from the Middle East from the Copper Age to the Middle Ages, but it includes the DNA of Mesolithic Europeans, Neolithic farmers and Indo-Europeans.

    2) by combining the East European and West European components from the Dodecad K12. This admixture is essentially Mesolithic Europeans + Indo-Europeans and excludes Near Eastern Neolithic farmers as well as the Gedrosian part of the Indo-Europeans.

    Neither is perfect but they give a pretty good estimation. I have listed a few European populations as references for comparison. I rounded up the percentages to the closest unit as these are approximates anyway.

    Obviously modern Europeans are not just the descendants of Mesolithic European, but can have a very sizeable share of Near Eastern ancestry. Aside from Neolithic farmers, that includes the Gedrosian part of Proto- Indo-Europeans, but also the Bronze and Iron Age expansions from the Caucasus (Kura-Araxes and descendants) Anatolia and the Levant to Greece, the Balkans, Italy and Iberia that brought considerable levels of West Asia or Caucasian admixture. The frequencies below look at what is left of the European gene pool from the Mesolithic and Neolithic only, and how much of it was brought outside Europe (mostly by the Indo-European migrations).


    1) Dodecad K12b (North European and Atlantic Med) => Mesolithic+Neolithic Europe

    - Scandinavians, French Basques, Spanish Basques : 90%
    - Lithuanians : 89%
    - Finns, Irish : 88%
    - British : 87%
    - Poles, Dutch : 84%
    - Belgians, French, Germans : 81%
    - Russians, Ukrainians : 78%
    - North/Central Spaniards : 76%
    - Hungarians : 75%
    - Portuguese, South Spaniards (Andalusia, Extremadura, Murcia) : 70%
    - North Italians : 66%
    - Romanians : 61%
    - Bulgarians : 59%
    - Central Italians : 55%
    - Greeks : 48%
    - Sicilians : 42%
    - Ashkenazi Jews : 39%
    - Sephardic Jews : 32.5%
    - Nogais : 26%
    - Cypriots : 25%
    - Lezgins : 24%
    - Algerians, Chechens, Tajiks : 23%
    - Adygei, Moroccans : 22%
    - Turks : 21%
    - Balkars : 20%
    - North Ossetians, Uzebeks : 19%
    - Lebanese : 15.5%
    - Uttar Pradesh Brahmins, Turkmens, Uyghurs : 15%
    - Syrians : 14.5%
    - Altaians, Armenians, Pathans : 14%
    - Kurds, Jordanians, Burusho (Pakistan), Hazaras : 12%
    - Iranians, Assyrians, Kshatriya Indians : 11%
    - Mongols : 10%
    - Egyptians, Georgians, Hazaras, Iraq Jews : 9%
    - Bedouins, Sindhi (Pakistan) : 8.5%
    - Tuva (C. Siberia) : 7%
    - Indians (non-Brahmin), Balochi (Pakistan) : 6%
    - Bengali, Tharus (Nepal) : 5.5%
    - Brahui (Pakistan), Yemeni : 5%
    - Buryats : 4.5%
    - Makrani : 4%
    - Saudi : 3.5%
    - Yakuts : 1%
    - Cambodians : 0.5%
    - Ethiopians : 0%

    1) Dodecad K12 (East Europe and West Europe) => Mesolithic Europe

    - Lithuanians : 93%
    - Finns : 87%
    - Belorussians : 83%
    - Russians : 80%
    - Poles : 79%
    - Scandinavians : 78%
    - Ukrainians : 71%
    - Irish, Germans, Mordovians : 70%
    - British 68%
    - Dutch : 66%
    - Hungarians : 65%
    - Belgians : 60%
    - French : 56%
    - French Basque : 53%
    - Romanians, Bulgarians : 45%
    - Spaniards : 43%
    - Portuguese : 41%
    - North Italians : 39%
    - Tuscans : 33%
    - Adygei : 32%
    - Morocco Jews : 31.5%
    - Sardinians : 30%
    - Lezgins : 28%
    - Chechens : 27%
    - Nogays : 26%
    - Tajiks : 25%
    - Ashkenazi Jews, Central Italians, Greeks : 24%
    - Balkars : 23%
    - Kumyks : 22.5%
    - Uzbeks : 21%
    - Sicilians : 18%
    - Altaians : 17%
    - Kalash (Pakistan) : 16%
    - Turkmens : 15.5%
    - South Italians, Hazaras : 15%
    - Indians (non-Brahmin) 14.5%
    - Balochi (Pakistan), Turks : 12%
    - Kurds : 11.5%
    - Sephardic Jews, Brahui (Pakistan) : 11%
    - Mongols, Makrani : 10%
    - Georgians : 9%
    - Iranians : 7%
    - Yakuts : 6%
    - Tunisians/Libyans, Buryats : 5%
    - Armenians, Cypriots, Nganassans : 4.5%
    - Lebanese, Syrians : 4%
    - Saudis, Cambodians : 3.5%
    - Druzes : 3%
    - Palestinians : 2.5%
    - Mozabites (Sahara), Daurs (Inner Mongolia) : 2%
    - Bedouins, Jordanians, Yemeni, Oroqen (Inner Mongolia) : 1.5%
    - Han Chinese , Egyptians, Moroccans : 0.5%
    Last edited by Maciamo; 16-01-17 at 13:20.
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    Here is the list of highest West Asian admixture in Eurasia and Africa.

    Dodecad K12b (Caucasian + Gedrosian) => West Asian ancestry

    - Georgians : 91%
    - Armenians : 75%
    - Adygei : 74%
    - Balkars, Chechens, Lezgins, North Ossetians : 73%
    - Georgia Jews : 71%
    - Azerbaijan Jews : 70.5%
    - Assyrians, Brahui, Balochi, Kurds : 70%
    - Iranians : 68%
    - Makrani : 67%
    - Iraq Jews : 64.5%
    - Druzes : 58.5%
    - Pathans, Turkmen : 57%
    - Sindhi : 56%
    - Cypriots : 55%
    - Sephardic Jews : 54.5%
    - Burusho, Lebanese, Tajiks : 52%
    - Kumyks, Nogais, Syrians, Turks : 50%
    - Jordanians : 47.5%
    - Palestinians : 45%
    - Ashkenazi Jews, Indians, Sicilians : 42%
    - Greeks : 40.5%
    - Kshatrya Indians : 40%
    - Morocco Jews : 39.5%
    - Uttar Pradesh Brahmins : 39%
    - Bedouins : 36%
    - Tharus : 35.5%
    - Central Italians/Tuscans : 35%
    - Yemeni : 33.5%
    - Bulgarians, Egyptians : 33%
    - Romanians, Uzbeks : 31.5%
    - Hazaras : 30%
    - North Italians, Uyghurs : 28.5%
    - Saudis : 24%
    - North Kannadi (S. India) : 22%
    - Sardinians : 21%
    - Hungarians : 20%
    - Germans, South Spaniards : 17.5%
    - Belgians, Mordovians, Ukrainians : 16.5%
    - French, Spaniards : 16%
    - Portuguese : 15.5%
    - Chuvashs, Dutch : 15%
    - Belorussians , British : 13.5%
    - Algerians, Polish : 12.5%
    - Irish : 12%
    - Russians : 11%
    - French Basques, Lithuanians, Altaians, Mongols : 10%
    - Spanish Basques : 9%
    - Scandinavians : 8.5%
    - Moroccans : 6.5%
    - Buryats, Ethiopians, Ethiopian Jews : 5%
    - Burmese : 4%
    - Finns : 2%
    Last edited by Maciamo; 16-01-17 at 13:24.

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    Here is the list of highest West Asian + Southwest Asian admixture in Eurasia and Africa.

    Dodecad K12b (Caucasian + Gedrosian + Southwest Asian) => Middle Eastern ancestry

    - Saudis : 91.5%
    - Georgians : 91%
    - Assyrians : 89%
    - Azerbaijan Jews, Georgia Jews : 88%
    - Armenians : 87%
    - Kurds : 84%
    - Iraq Jews : 83.5%
    - Iranians : 82%
    - Brahui, Druzes : 81.5%
    - Balochi : 80.5%
    - Bedouins : 79%
    - Makrani, Syrians : 78%
    - Jordanians, Lebanese, Palestinians : 75.5%
    - Adygei : 74%
    - Lezgins : 74%
    - Balkars, Chechens, North Ossetians : 73%
    - Cypriots : 72.5%
    - Turkmen : 64%
    - Egyptians : 63%
    - Turks : 60.5%
    - Sephardic Jews : 60%
    - Sindhi : 59.5%
    - Pathans : 57%
    - Morocco Jews : 56.5%
    - Ashkenazi Jews : 55.5%
    - Sicilians : 54%
    - Tajiks : 55%
    - Kumyks : 53.5%
    - Burusho : 52%
    - Yemeni : 51%
    - Greeks, Nogais : 50.5%
    - Central Italians : 45.5%
    - Indians : 42.5%
    - Tuscans : 41.5%
    - Kshatriya Indians : 40%
    - Bulgarians, Uttar Pradesh Brahmins : 39%
    - Romanians : 37.5%
    - Tharus : 35.5%
    - North Italians, Uzbeks : 34%
    - Ethiopians : 33.5%
    - Hazaras : 32.5%
    - Ethiopian Jews : 21%
    - Uyghurs : 30%
    - Algerians: 28.5%
    - Sardinians : 27%
    - Hungarians : 23%
    - North Kannadi, Moroccans, South Spaniards : 22%
    - Portuguese, Somali : 20.5%
    - Spaniards : 20%
    - Ukrainians : 19.5%
    - Germans: 19%
    - Belgians, French : 18.5%
    - Mordovians : 17%
    - Belorussians, Chuvashs, Dutch : 15.5%
    - Polish : 15%
    - British : 13.5%
    - Russians : 13%
    - Irish : 12%
    - Lithuanians : 11.5%
    - French/Spanish Basques, Altaians, Mongols : 10%
    - Scandinavians : 9%
    - Buryats : 5%
    - Finns : 4.5%
    - Burmese : 4%
    Last edited by Maciamo; 16-01-17 at 13:25.

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    are people of india a mix of west asian, australoid with some european? is that what the list is saying?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 54ttye View Post
    are people of india a mix of west asian, australoid with some european? is that what the list is saying?
    Exactly. Eastern Indians and Banglasdeshi also have East Asian admixture.

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    K12b:
    European - 48.98
    MENA - 47.96

    North African - 1.57
    South Asian - 1.25

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    If I factor out my Scottish ancestry, I would be 59.94% on West Asia. This puts me with Sephardi Jews (60%). This also means, I would be (54% (Italian) + 54% + 70%) /3 = 59.3%

    But how is this possible, how can a Turkish Jew and a Polish Jew mix end up at 70%?

    Or does this mean people from Naples cluster with Jews more so than Sicilians?

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    I have created a table showing the Dodecad K12b admixtures and the total for European, Middle Eastern and West Eurasian admixtures. You can sort the table by frequency. The colours also make it easier to visualise.

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    Eh, well looking at that, were Armenians and Turkish Jews leaving Turkey at the same time? Because an Armenian and an Ashkenazim averages perfectly to my mystery mixture.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    It's an outdated calculator and the component names don't make much sense tbh. Someone would say the North European can be called Central/North Eurasian because it has higher allele frequencies in those regions than many parts of Europe?


    I'd also recommend to learn some geography before make a thread about Middle East.
    Caucasus is not part of it.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ^ Everything still to scale though. If the lables are misleading its one thing, but you can still see the relationship between population mixtures.

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    That's not really the case.
    For example the Caucasus peaks in North Caucasus and the presence around surrounding regions isn't exclusively in the Middle East but it reaches almost 40% in Ashkenazim, Greeks, Sicilians and above 50% in Cypriots.

    While North Indians who score literally nothing Caucasus can have 15-20% North European admixture.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes, you are complaining about how the population names dont match to the geography. But you can look past that, and see the relationships between all components in the tables from one population to the next. Forget about the geography, and just look at the numbers as abstract.

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    I know very well what you're trying to explain, but Caucasus isn't a Middle Eastern genetic component.

    I can't link the picture but the genetic distance from Caucasus is the following:

    Caucasus (genetic distance) based on K12b

    0.033 Atlantic_Med
    0.041 North_European
    0.041 Gedrosia
    0.047 Southwest_Asian
    0.052 Northwest African

    For comparison the "North_European" label:

    0.041 Caucasus
    0.041 Atlantic_Med
    0.048 Gedrosia
    0.063 Southwest_Asian
    0.067 Northwest_African


    - Caucasus is more closer to North Europe than to the rest of Near Eastern specific components (Southwest_Asian)

    Genetic distance from Atlantic_Med:

    0.033 Caucasus
    0.041 North_European
    0.052 Southwest_Asian
    0.056 Northwest_African
    0.062 Gedrosia

    Atlantic Med, North European and the Caucasus component is equally European like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    Yes, you are complaining about how the population names dont match to the geography. But you can look past that, and see the relationships between all components in the tables from one population to the next. Forget about the geography, and just look at the numbers as abstract.
    ?

    how do you look past errors ...............garbage in = garbage out
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    I had no Idea that the Caucus was closer to Northern Europe, than Atlanto Med is.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    But than Why do Tuscans way cluster closer to Finns than Armenians do? Tuscans have large Med, and Armenians are mostly Caucasian. So they should be closer to Northern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    I had no Idea that the Caucus was closer to Northern Europe, than Atlanto Med is.
    Northern European on Dodecad peaks in Lithuanians, it's significantly lower in all the Northern Germanic people, including Scandinavians, and it's more a mix of Atlantic and Baltic component than a true Northern European component. Northern European on Dodecad is very similar to a Balto-Slavic as well. Atlantic-Med also tends to absorbe Northern European, especially the NE that peaks in North-Western Europeans. In fact on Dodedad K12b Dutch, Germans, British, Swedish and Norvegians score high Atlanto-Med. On the other hand, Atlanto-Med decreases with Polish, Russians, and in Southern Europe Greeks are those who have less Atlantic-Med.

    Unfortunately most of the calculators (Eurogenes, MDLP, Dodecad...) tend to reflect the vision of those who created them.

    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    But than Why do Tuscans way cluster closer to Finns than Armenians do? Tuscans have large Med, and Armenians are mostly Caucasian. So they should be closer to Northern Europe.
    Atlantic Med isn't a Med component only, it's likely a mix of HG (WHG?) and EEF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    But than Why do Tuscans way cluster closer to Finns than Armenians do? Tuscans have large Med, and Armenians are mostly Caucasian. So they should be closer to Northern Europe.
    Armenians have significant portions of Southwest Asian, Gedrosian component along Caucasus. An ethnic group of 100% Caucasus ancestry (which is non existent) would be closer to most Europeans than compared to Near Eastern groups because this component shares the same ancestral links with other Europeans.

    Tuscans have 25-30% North European ancestry which makes them closer to North Europe than Armenians still both these groups are more closely related than to Finns. - Armenians and Italians have large portions of Early Neolithic Farmer, CHG ancestry.

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    Ok, I did not know Atlanto Med has Northern Euro in it already, on top of the Northern European component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    Ok, I did not know Atlanto Med has Northern Euro in it already, on top of the Northern European component.
    Northern European is just a label. This was written by Diekenes on 2012, as you see by yourself it's everything more complicated

    Gedrosia appears to be Caucasus + a slice of Siberian
    Both Siberian and Southeast Asian appear to be wholly East Asian
    East Asian on the other hand, appears to be mostly Southeast Asian + minority Siberian
    Northwest African appears to be Caucasus + a minority Sub Saharan
    Atlantic Med appears to be Caucasus + a slice of North European
    North European appears to be Atlantic Med + Gedrosia with a slice of Siberian
    South Asian appears to be Caucasus + East Asian
    East African appears to be Sub Saharan + minority Caucasus
    Southwest Asian appears to be Caucasus
    Sub Saharan appears to be East African
    Caucasus appears Atlantic Med + Gedrosia + slices of Northwest African and Southwest Asian



    http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2012/08/...-k12b-and.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    Ok, I did not know Atlanto Med has Northern Euro in it already, on top of the Northern European component.
    Atlantic-Med and Northern European are all just labels.

    This was written by Diekenes on 2012. As you see by yourself it's everything more complicated. From 2012 to today it has gone five years.

    Gedrosia appears to be Caucasus + a slice of Siberian
    Both Siberian and Southeast Asian appear to be wholly East Asian
    East Asian on the other hand, appears to be mostly Southeast Asian + minority Siberian
    Northwest African appears to be Caucasus + a minority Sub Saharan
    Atlantic Med appears to be Caucasus + a slice of North European
    North European appears to be Atlantic Med + Gedrosia with a slice of Siberian
    South Asian appears to be Caucasus + East Asian
    East African appears to be Sub Saharan + minority Caucasus
    Southwest Asian appears to be Caucasus
    Sub Saharan appears to be East African
    Caucasus appears Atlantic Med + Gedrosia + slices of Northwest African and Southwest Asian



    The following graph summarizes the relationship between the 12 components. I used color intensity of the edges to indicate admixture intensity:


    http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2012/08/...-k12b-and.html

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    As Pax Augusta has indicated, Dienekes pointed out the problem with using Admixture calculators for ancestry analysis years ago, especially Admixture calculators using drifted, composite modern populations. That's undoubtedly why he stopped developing them. If people aren't going to accept the statements of the very creators of the calculators then I really don't know what else to say.

    He also discussed this matter using another calculator he created. See:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09...decad-k7b.html

    These threads have to be read and understood before making claims based on these modern modal sets of alleles. Even then, this has been superseded.

    I realize that some of the new formal statistical methods can be daunting to understand and use, and it's also very time consuming, but that and ancient dna is where we are now. It's only going to get worse. I've been trying to plow through some new programs that have been released, and it's extremely slow going.

    Btw, as for the "Caucasus" component, it means different things in different calculators, but what we do know is that it is extremely high in "Basal Eurasian", perhaps higher than in the Anatolian Neolithic. If that isn't "Middle Eastern", then nothing is "Middle Eastern". There's also a lot more "Caucasus" in modern Southern Europeans than in modern Northern Europeans.


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    we're getting a bit of topic, but I continue ..

    Instead of comparing with modern populations we should look to reconstruct anciant DNA which would be ancestral instead of derived.
    For non-recombining DNA (Y- and mtDNA) a pedigree can be made up.
    I guess for recombining it is more dificult, especialy for the heterozygous parts.
    I wonder whether it is possible to do some reverse engineering on todays or on anciant DNA to go back in time and to come to the DNA of a common unmutated ancestor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Northern European is just a label. This was written by Diekenes on 2012, as you see by yourself it's everything more complicated

    Gedrosia appears to be Caucasus + a slice of Siberian
    Both Siberian and Southeast Asian appear to be wholly East Asian
    East Asian on the other hand, appears to be mostly Southeast Asian + minority Siberian
    Northwest African appears to be Caucasus + a minority Sub Saharan
    Atlantic Med appears to be Caucasus + a slice of North European
    North European appears to be Atlantic Med + Gedrosia with a slice of Siberian
    South Asian appears to be Caucasus + East Asian
    East African appears to be Sub Saharan + minority Caucasus
    Southwest Asian appears to be Caucasus
    Sub Saharan appears to be East African
    Caucasus appears Atlantic Med + Gedrosia + slices of Northwest African and Southwest Asian





    http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2012/08/...-k12b-and.html
    Dienekes is a Greek national whose family original came from the Pontus region, next to the Caucasus. He has called this region the "womb of the world". It's therefore not very surprising that he should trace back most admixtures to the Caucasus. You should take his analysis with a pinch of salt.

    Anyway any admixture calculator is biased in some way and labels are what we make of them. HarappaWorld K16 is very similar to Dodecad K12b, but because the defining SNPs are not the same, many Europeans consistently score a few percents higher for North European and lower for Mediterranean (than K12b's Atlantic_Med). For example, British people score 44% North_European at Dodecad K12b, but 51% at Harappa K16. They score 42% Atlantic_Med at Dodecad K12b, but 34% Mediterranean at Harappa K16.

    The frequencies for Caucasus, Gedrosia/Balochi, Southwest Asian, Siberian, etc. also all vary a bit one way or another depending on the calculator, but the general trend between populations remain the same.

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