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Thread: Yamnayans in North Russia

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    Yamnayans in North Russia

    Just i red the paper "Mapping Post-Glacial expansions: The Peopling of Southwest Asia" (here), and the interesting point is:

    Due to the phylogenetic relationship between J1 and J2 markers, the TMRCAs for these are identical. The J1 and J2 split shows deepest time in the Caucasus, Syria and Turkey at 8.9 ka and 8.4 ka, respectively.
    Our study has identified the Caucasus refugium as the likely source for the J1 and J2 haplogroups that now dominate Southwest Asia, and previously appeared to mark the Neolithic Revolution’s expansion into Europe. Yet, haplogroups J1 and J2 are distinctly lacking in the earlier Yamnaya samples.
    they include var and freq maps to sure their claims.

    The article fails to comment that there are ancient J's that confirm their claims: Satsurbila and Kotias in paleolithic Georgia (J1 and J2a), and Huto Cave in the Zagros (J2a).

    The interesting case is that even if the authors complain about the apparent lack of J's in Yamnayans, there was a Mesolithic J1 in Karelia dated to about 5250 BC. As this man has now clear origins in the Caucasus it's possible to ask:

    his clade arrived to Karelia from the North Caucasus after the rise of temperatures? or his clade arrived there with a Neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent / Caucasus that went northwards?

    in whichever case as this man was J1 he was carrying surely CHG autosomals, and as Yamnayans were half CHG half EHG, there are a lot of possible similar admixtures to find out in the path to the northernmost European territory. So then, as it's stated that the (eastern) Yamnayans can't be the source for the admixture in the Corded Ware, we can find out the source pop in North Russia...?
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    The Mesolithic Karelian man with J1 doesn't have confirmed CHG ancestry. If he did have some he had little.

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    To me it's not a matter if such J man had much or less CHG admixture, as for Caucasian hunthers-gaterers Karelia was far from their homeland and to reach such land a lot of admixtures with "Russian" locals would have lowered the Caucasian component before; if instead the region was reached by Caucasian agriculturalists the people there would be scarce (land not suitable for farming neither for herding, only for good for pionner trappists).

    But the case is that if Caucasians reached the northermost territory of Europe by the VI millennium, and if Caucasians left a Caucasian DNA signature in their path, and other Russian EHG samples date from such time, and if such EHG really keept a Caucasian admixture (but they are taken as pure populations...), many admixture analisys involving EHG will deliver Yamnayan-like pops, I'm wrong?

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    All that depends on how are analysed ancient pops: as pure reference or admixed - allways same question! Labellings - seemingly a lot of scientists analysed Yamanya pop as a mix between kind of CHG and EHG - on physical aspect they were roughly said "halfway" between South-Caucasus, Mesolithic HGs with a taste of Northern Neolitic pops not reductible to first both, what as a whole don't contradict the DNA results -
    GENETIKER has his own criteria and its Wes-Asi

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    sorry: his 'westasian' part is very low in his Pit Grave (about 12-15%?) and his dark-blue one (what's?) I take for EHGlike is very high. But he is far from scientists works. What is sure is that the total auDNA from Caucasus was and is still very very low around the Baltic, as are rare enough the Y-J...

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    Looking at Genetiker admixtures there are not Caucasian traces among HG Karelains... but instead there is a EHG trace (20%) in Satsurblia... maybe it is taking a share of the EHG genes as EHG instead to do the contrary?

    For the actual scarcity of J and Caucasian DNA in the Baltics, it could be "blamed" the Siberian waves of R1a and N.

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    MarkoZ
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    As per Lazaridis, the Karelians do have ancestry from something that peaks in Neolithic Iran. The affinity can be seen as early as Hotu III. Take a look at figures 1 & 4:

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...59311.full.pdf

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    Marko, modern Karelians =/= Mesolithic Karelians.

    ================================

    Below is my recent map of the spread of PIE and of R1a and R1b haplogroups, based on archaeology and on well over 100 ancient DNA samples. I think that PIE expanded into Europe along two routes, a southern route dominated by R1b-P312 with R1b-Z2103, and a northern one dominated by R1a-M417. As for R1b-U106, it could as well go along the northern route together with R1a-M417, considering that U106 has not been found in any Bell Beaker remains thus far. The oldest known U106 is RISE98 dated to 2275-2032 BC from Lilla Beddinge in Southern Sweden (Scania), and that burial was located in Corded Ware cultural zone. Autosomally, RISE98 was more similar to other Corded Ware samples (the ones with R1a), than to any Bell Beaker sample:


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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Looking at Genetiker admixtures there are not Caucasian traces among HG Karelains... but instead there is a EHG trace (20%) in Satsurblia... maybe it is taking a share of the EHG genes as EHG instead to do the contrary?

    For the actual scarcity of J and Caucasian DNA in the Baltics, it could be "blamed" the Siberian waves of R1a and N.
    if we take 20% EHG in Satsurbia (I doubt it 's so high) so we can have only 20x15/100 = 3% more of "Caucasus" in play, no more, still according to Genetiker! As long we tely on him, it doesn't change things too dramatically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Marko, modern Karelians =/= Mesolithic Karelians.

    ================================

    Below is my recent map of the spread of PIE and of R1a and R1b haplogroups, based on archaeology and on well over 100 ancient DNA samples. I think that PIE expanded into Europe along two routes, a southern route dominated by R1b-P312 with R1b-Z2103, and a northern one dominated by R1a-M417. As for R1b-U106, it could as well go along the northern route together with R1a-M417, considering that U106 has not been found in any Bell Beaker remains thus far. The oldest known U106 is RISE98 dated to 2275-2032 BC from Lilla Beddinge in Southern Sweden (Scania), and that burial was located in Corded Ware cultural zone. Autosomally, RISE98 was more similar to other Corded Ware samples (the ones with R1a), than to any Bell Beaker sample:

    I remember Eurogenes stated the Y-R-U106 RISE98 was shifted a bit more western ('northsea'?) than the Y-R1a man found there, who was more 'eastern' or 'finnish' or something like that... I cannot find his post again.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    MOESAN,

    Actually RISE98 had just as much of "North Sea" as R1a samples.

    Here are Eurogenes K15 results of ancient Scandinavian samples:

    RISE61 = 2650-2300 BC, Corded Ware, R1a-Z284+
    RISE94 = 2621-2472 BC, Corded Ware, R1a-Z645+
    RISE71 = 2196-2023 BC, Corded Ware
    RISE97 = 2025-1885 BC, Corded Ware
    RISE98 = 2275-2032 BC, Corded Ware, R1b-U106+
    RISE276 = 794-547 BC, Nordic Bronze Age, R1b
    RISE174 = 427-611 AD, Iron Age Sweden

    North Sea Atlantic Baltic Eastern Euro West Med West Asian South Asian Sub-Saharan Amerind Oceanian Siberian East Med NE African Red Sea SE Asian
    RISE94 38,9 30,74 9,3 11,15 0,23 9,68 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE61 41,9 22,42 13,76 7,53 12,24 0,5 0 1,64 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE71 50,33 23,06 8,27 2,59 0 4,51 0 0,48 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE97 37 39,07 10,85 5,57 7,51 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE98 39,93 18,64 15,82 16,41 7,64 0 1,07 0,36 0 0,12 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE174 40,24 31,48 16,78 10,88 0,28 0 0 0 0,34 0 0 0 0 0 0
    RISE276 35,1 32,86 19,57 2,87 7,32 0,08 0 2,2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

    And these samples have not been uploaded to GEDmatch:

    RISE42 = 2191-1972 BC, Corded Ware, R1a
    RISE179 = 2010-1776 BC, Corded Ware, I1
    RISE47 = 1499-1324 BC, Nordic BA, R1b(xP312)
    RISE207 = 1493-1302 BC, Nordic BA, I1
    RISE210 = 1432-1292 BC, Nordic BA, I1
    RISE175 = 1395-1132 BC, Nordic BA, I1

    Would be nice to upload them and see their results as well.

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    As you can see RISE98 had more of "Eastern Euro" admixture than Scandinavian R1a samples.

    He had 16,41% of "Eastern Euro" - compared to 11,15% and 7,53% for two samples with R1a.

    He had about as much of "North Sea" and he had actually much less of "Atlantic" than R1a men.

    was shifted a bit more western ('northsea'?)
    "North Sea" does not really shift you west, at least not during the Bronze Age (IIRC, Sintashta, Potapovka, Srubnaya, etc. samples from Russia also scored a lot of "North Sea"). "Atlantic" is what shifts you west. "North Sea" just shifts you north.

    "West Med" and "Atlantic" really shift you west (those were the 2 main admixtures in Copper-Bronze Age Iberia).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Marko, modern Karelians =/= Mesolithic Karelians.
    Did you even bother to read Lazaridis paper? There's no mention of modern Karelians, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Did you even bother to read Lazaridis paper? There's no mention of modern Karelians, of course.
    I did read it but it was long ago. OK sorry, I will check it again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    As per Lazaridis, the Karelians do have ancestry from something that peaks in Neolithic Iran. The affinity can be seen as early as Hotu III. Take a look at figures 1 & 4:

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...59311.full.pdf
    Interesting. In Hotu and Belt cave, 8,000y old pottery was found, being similar to lake baikal pottery.


    In Karelia, comb ware pottery was found, which originated in Liao valley in Manchu area and migrated thru Lake Baikal to Europe.
    "However, calibrated radiocarbon dates for the comb-ware fragments found (e.g., in the Karelian isthmus), give a total interval of 5600 BC – 2300 BC (Geochronometria Vol. 23, pp 93–99, 2004)."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    As you can see RISE98 had more of "Eastern Euro" admixture than Scandinavian R1a samples.

    He had 16,41% of "Eastern Euro" - compared to 11,15% and 7,53% for two samples with R1a.

    He had about as much of "North Sea" and he had actually much less of "Atlantic" than R1a men.



    "North Sea" does not really shift you west, at least not during the Bronze Age (IIRC, Sintashta, Potapovka, Srubnaya, etc. samples from Russia also scored a lot of "North Sea"). "Atlantic" is what shifts you west. "North Sea" just shifts you north.

    "West Med" and "Atlantic" really shift you west (those were the 2 main admixtures in Copper-Bronze Age Iberia).
    I cannot find the Eurogenes post - Surely I mistake Corded R1b with a Nordic Bronze Y-R1b, I beg your pardon, I did not find my notes - I totally agree with you this RISE98 is very "north-east" and "east" - OK too for 'northsea': these people according to me came from N-E before to specialize in N-W - I put "northsea" between (-) not sure of the Eurogenes statement in details - you and others may forget my useless post! thanks for details I had not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    if we take 20% EHG in Satsurbia (I doubt it 's so high) so we can have only 20x15/100 = 3% more of "Caucasus" in play, no more, still according to Genetiker! As long we tely on him, it doesn't change things too dramatically.
    I have not explained it well. The EHG admixture in Satsurblia would not be a true EHG but original part of the Caucasians, to give an example it would be to find out in Europeans an African admixture of 25% if we take Mulattos as source pop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Marko, modern Karelians =/= Mesolithic Karelians.

    ================================

    I think that PIE expanded into Europe along two routes, a southern route dominated by R1b-P312 with R1b-Z2103, and a northern one dominated by R1a-M417. As for R1b-U106, it could as well go along the northern route together with R1a-M417, considering that U106 has not been found in any Bell Beaker remains thus far. The oldest known U106 is RISE98 dated to 2275-2032 BC from Lilla Beddinge in Southern Sweden (Scania), and that burial was located in Corded Ware cultural zone. Autosomally, RISE98 was more similar to other Corded Ware samples (the ones with R1a), than to any Bell Beaker sample:
    Where are the R1b-P312 aDNA in the Steppes? I saw none so far. Only R1b-Z2103 or R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Where are the R1b-P312 aDNA in the Steppes? I saw none so far. Only R1b-Z2103 or R1a.
    Most likely in Ukraine, from which there are no any ancient Y-DNA samples so far.

    1) Ancient samples of R1b:



    2) Ancient samples of R1a:



    Rogalin samples are from Eastern Poland, not from Ukraine. Ukraine is a "desert".

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    Remember Villabruna shares Alleles with CHG so EHG will as well. At least a little.

    We will find the origins of Corded Ware and "European" R1b subclades in Sredny Stog and subsequent Ukranian BA steppe samples.

    Pottery with impressed cords is first found in Sredny Stog, which also appears to have a greater affinity with the Balkan Neolithic. This is genetically exactly what Corded Ware, Srubna, and Sintashta look like as well.

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    Is it possible that Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum regarding sredni stog?

    Gimbutas (1985: 191) has suggested that the Srednij Stog II culture in the DnieperDonets region which she identifies as her Kurgan I and II cultures (ca. 4500–3500BCE) was not the result of local evolution in that region but had its source in an
    intrusion from an earlier culture farther east with connections to the earliest Neoli-
    thic in the Middle Urals and Soviet Central Asia. The archaeological record of the regions still farther east before that time is unfortunately still largely blank.:Edwin G. PulleyblankUniversity of British [email protected] PEOPLES OF THE STEPPE FRONTIER IN EARLYCHINESE SOURCES*
    ...the linguistic evidence from our family does not lead us beyond Gimbutas’ secondary homeland and that the Khvalynsk culture on the middle Volga and the Maykop culture in the northern Caucasus cannot be identified with the Indo-Europeans. Any proposal which goes beyond the Sredny Stog culture must start from the possible affinities of Indo-European with other language families. It is usually recognized that the best candidate in this respect is the Uralic language family, while further connections with the Altaic languages and perhaps even Dravidian are possible... What we do have to take into account is the typological similarity of Proto-Indo-European to the North-West Caucasian (i.e. Adyg) languages. If this similarity can be attributed to areal factors, we may think of Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic which was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum. It now appears that this view is actually supported by the archaeological evidence. If it is correct, we may locate the earliest (Uralo-Altaic) ancestors of the speakers of Proto-Indo-European north of the Caspian Sea in the seventh millennium. [F.Kortlandt, Journal of Indo-European Studies, Volume 18, 1990, p.131]
    There is now a consensus of linguists and mythologists that the Indo-European linguistic family is closest to the Finno-Ugric. The Indo-Uralic hypothesis, whereby the Indo-European family is classed with the Uralic-Yukaghir, Altaic, and others, is particularly strong (Anttila 1972). [M.Gimbutas, Current Anthropology, Volume 27, Issue 4 (Aug. - Oct., 1986), p. 306]

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I have not explained it well. The EHG admixture in Satsurblia would not be a true EHG but original part of the Caucasians, to give an example it would be to find out in Europeans an African admixture of 25% if we take Mulattos as source pop.
    You was clear and I'm clear too: IF I RELY ON GENETIKER the results are still the same ones: your "Satsurbian EHG" cannot go over 3%! (maths!) - but it depends on the confidence we can have in Genetiker for that, what is another question (I compare Genetiker results with Genetiker results to try to find something out, but not with other results)

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    Well, in Genetiker I see 15-20% of EHG component in Satsurblia or "Georgia_MHG", and some 10% in "Georgia_PHG". Also I saw similar levels in a paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Well, in Genetiker I see 15-20% of EHG component in Satsurblia or "Georgia_MHG", and some 10% in "Georgia_PHG". Also I saw similar levels in a paper.
    No comment - it's only arithmetics...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    No comment - it's only arithmetics...
    I think that you take yet the EHG share as EHG...

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