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Thread: Was I2a-CTS10228 (dinaric) an ancient Slavic king ?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Therefore the point that I2a-Dinaric became dominant among the Slavic speakers because of elite dominance is very real!
    Yeah, right. CTS10228 exploded among the hillbilly Slavic farmers. Wake up kid

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    The elites were not positive for S17250 as only this branch was tested.
    All other branches are dominated by Slavic speakers but Y18331 only which is dominated by Greeks.
    Plus by the time of these Magyar conquerors I2a-Dinaric was only 1100 years old as shown by YFULL.
    Therefore the point that I2a-Dinaric became dominant among the Slavic speakers because of elite dominance is very real!
    Not really. They were shotgun calls on low resolution samples. Most of the Magyar elite were neither I2 or R1a. If they were confirmed I haven't seen any updates stating as such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Not really. They were shotgun calls on low resolution samples. Most of the Magyar elite were neither I2 or R1a. If they were confirmed I haven't seen any updates stating as such.
    From the actual study: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...97997.full.pdf

    The genetic profile of the Avar and Conqueror leader groups seems considerably different, as latter groupis distinguished by the significant presence of European Hg-s; I2a1a2b-L621, R1b1a1b1a1a1-U106 and theFinno-Permic N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936 branch.


    As you can see, the elites are I2a-L621 and R1a so the Magyars were I2a-L621 indeed or at least the elite was!

    The furthest down the line they got is I-L621!
    The last time I checked on the YFULL tree, I-L621 is dominated by Slavic speakers: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/
    With the oldest branches found in Western Europe, however as the Magyars were, are in Eastern Europe, it's more probable they were some other branch which can be found in Eastern Europe, other than S17250 for which the Conquerors were tested negative!
    On the tree, I can see Magyars positive on I-Y4460 and and I-Y5595, and it's more logical to guess one of these two branches for the Conquerors!

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    They could have been I-Z17855 also. It's still found in eastern Hungary and will link them with Proto-Bulgars = Onogur tribe. It will also explain why the max is located mostly in Northern Bulgaria and Southern Macedonia - Asparuh and Kuber.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bained View Post
    They could have been I-Z17855 also. It's still found in eastern Hungary and will link them with Proto-Bulgars = Onogur tribe. It will also explain why the max is located mostly in Northern Bulgaria and Southern Macedonia - Asparuh and Kuber.
    I agree with this...
    If the Magyar elite could have belong to a branch of I-L621, I don't see a reason why the Bulgars wouldn't have been the initiators of this branch in the Balkans.
    There is a big possibility that Z17855 was spread by the Bulgars because as you mentioned, this branch is the most common one in Macedonia and Bulgaria.
    Probably the place where the Bulgars and the Magyars could have absorbed this branch is in the Pontic steppe.
    From the Pontic steppe I-L621 spread in all directions and was absorbed by the Greeks, the Huns, the Wends(Western Slavs) and others.
    Now who and when brought this branch to the Pontic steppe is yet to be seen but it was not by the proto-Bulgars for sure.
    One possibility I have been thinking of are the Hallstatt Celts who are known to have migrated in the Balkans, in Ukraine but also to the Pontic steppe where they intermingled with the Scythians: https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tool...al-discoveries
    Thus, this might be one possibility how this branch ended up in the Magyar conquerors!

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    Yeah, plus the Bulgars claim lineage from single person called Avitohol, a mythical khan from which they all descent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    From the actual study: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...97997.full.pdf





    As you can see, the elites are I2a-L621 and R1a so the Magyars were I2a-L621 indeed or at least the elite was!

    The furthest down the line they got is I-L621!
    The last time I checked on the YFULL tree, I-L621 is dominated by Slavic speakers: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/
    With the oldest branches found in Western Europe, however as the Magyars were, are in Eastern Europe, it's more probable they were some other branch which can be found in Eastern Europe, other than S17250 for which the Conquerors were tested negative!
    On the tree, I can see Magyars positive on I-Y4460 and and I-Y5595, and it's more logical to guess one of these two branches for the Conquerors!
    Just because it is in a study does not mean it is confirmed. Shot Gun calls are not always reliable but of course they can be legit as well. I suppose it depends on the resolution of the test. They were not tested any further sure, and the most major of its Slavic branches was negative. They also were not even tested for Z17855 or parent clade CTS10228 which unifies 99% of Slavic I2a. Of course there are some randoms. All we know is they were L621 Which has a TMRCA of 6500ypb. No Slavs are apart of this specific clade, they are further down stream almost COMPLETELY under CTS10228.

    All it means is an ancestral L621 migrated from North/West Europe at some time in the ancient past before coming back with Magyars. It remains to be seen if they split L621 forming a steppe specific branch, or if they do go further downstream into CTS10228 sharing clades with Slavs. Perhaps they possess the aforementioned clades you referenced.

    Its still just you guessing, theres no basis for any of it. Slavs all fall under CTS10228 with those being negative for this clade being rare in Slavs. L621 is the progenitor of those who would go on to participate in the Slavic migration. It does not make Slavs all Magyars now, nor does it make Magyars Slavic. They already are negative for one major branch associated with Slavs. Given the age of L621, all I2a-Din Slavs share a common ancestor to 4500BC. So unless these tests are confirmed and tested with higher resolution to confirm a placement in CTS10228 or further down, its just guess work on your part.

    For all we know they form a completely separate branch. All this proves is that L621 may have migrated East long ago, further lending support that some clades became part of the Slavs. Even CTS10228 split off from L621 very long ago. There are a few branches between L621 and CTS10228.

    As far as I know these elites didn't have Slavic admixture. Of I-Y4460 and and I-Y5595 that is possible, but again just guesswork until further resolution testing can confirm it.

    Even the CTS1211 has a TMRCA of 4400ybp and it hasn't been confirmed whether they split the branch forming their own clade or whether they belong to clades found in Hungarians or Slavs.

    Take me for example. I was believed to be negative for M458 due to some no calls on various platforms. I was believed to be L1029-YP263 with ancestry via morely(usually spot on). So nothing added up. It was only when I did a full genome sequencing that it was revealed I was L1029 but actually negative downstream including YP263 which morely predicted. Turned out I formed an Albanian specific founder clade under potentially Proto-Slavic L1029. Only full genomes sequencing confirmed my true assignment. Most of these samples are low resolution which is problematic enough. Jumping the gun and making assumptions and then thumbing me down doesn't make what you're saying fact, until there is evidence to solidify it.

    More and more clades are being discovered. It is one track minded to assume they have to belong to clades we already know and not to clades that may yet be undiscovered or could have died out/had minimal success.

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    Ancient DNA Reveals Matrilineal Continuity in Present-Day Poland over the Last Two Millennia


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4206425/


    I cannot find any ancient slavic Y-DNA study.
    So far there is no scientific evidence for your favorite statement,Dibran.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Ancient DNA Reveals Matrilineal Continuity in Present-Day Poland over the Last Two Millennia


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4206425/


    I cannot find any ancient slavic Y-DNA study.
    So far there is no scientific evidence for your favorite statement,Dibran.
    Of course not. Germans also found some 2000 male remains at Tolense field from 2013(potentially Lusatian) and they have yet to extract the YDNA. Agenda much?

    Even when there is evidence staring you in your ignorant face you will ignore it. Why? Because it would hurt your little Scandinavian brain to be descended from the Slavic tribes that raided AND settled in Sweden, including carrying raids upto Denmark. Theres quite a few samples of I2a1b in the middle ages. They're all Slavs. Highest I2a1b diversity? In Slavs. nearly 100 percent of I2a1b is found(be it modern or medieval samples) entirely in Slavs. R1a has an even wider spread than I2a1b.

    I guess they could have never left a mark in your brain. You say I2a1b is not Slavic, others say R1a is not Slavic. Where does that leave the Slavic tribes?

    Just get used to it. Outside of Slavs there is literally no major clades of I2a1b specific to Germans or Scandinavians. Certainly no major representation either.

    If you are anything under CTS10228 your ancestor was a Proto-Slav that raided Scandinavia with the Pomeranian "Vikings". Idk why it bothers you so much. L621, the forefather to CTS10228, was found in Motala. So it originally moved from Northern Europe. Thats about as much comfort as I can give you.

    However, your MRCA I2a1b-CTS10228, was a Proto-Slav. In your case, a Pomeranian Viking, or a Wend. 99 percent of modern CTS10228 are all from bottlenecks, and founder effects within the last 1000-2000 years that occurred among Slavs. So if you belong to CTS10228 your earliest progenitor in the distant past was a Slav. Doesn't mean you are a Slav.

    Discovering a pre-CTS10228 clades in a non-Slavic culture also wouldn't make your line any less Slavic. It would only mean the ancestor to your ancestor wasn't a Slav but that his descendants survived through, and expanded with, the Slavs.

    Get used to it.

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