Your physical idea of what Yamnayans look-like.

Valerius said:
Most of the Yamnaya people were Proto-Europids which is a Cromagnoid with dark hair and dark eyes which was something like a mediterranean
type with wide face and minor mongoloid traits. This type is almost extinct today. Most of the modern Europeans look like the pre-indo-european people of old Europe. I think it's possible that the so-called Alpine type could be a more recent reduced "derivate" from the original because this type matches geographically to the expansion of the Indo-Europeans in Europe and also matches pigmentation but this type exist in none-european people so there could be different sources of this phenotype.
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That Proto-Europoid type is very interessting but also very confuse, can you have modern exemple of what anthropologists considers like Proto-Europoid Type ? What is the difference between Proto-Europoid in features with Cro-Magnoid in a classical sens ?
 
Dienekes posted this plate once - http://s21.postimg.org/gwv1snu13/1dienekesracialcal.png

It's confusing because it's no longer observed today in a pure form. The modern Cromagnoid is seen mainly in some northern types with wide heads, wide bones, robust features, heavy brow ridges, endomorphs but the term also could be used on any other (southern) type which exhibits some archaic features like the said wide bones and robustness, etc. So, the Yamnaya people had these archaic features but also had dark hair and dark eyes (confirmed genetically) while the modern Northern Europeans who are CM are mainly light pigmented. In time all CM features and phenotypes tend to disappear in favor of more gracile forms but there are old forms that are still present for some reason today.
 
Valerius said:
Dienekes posted this plate once - http://s21.postimg.org/gwv1snu13/1dienekesracialcal.png

It's confusing because it's no longer observed today in a pure form. The modern Cromagnoid is seen mainly in some northern types with wide heads, wide bones, robust features, heavy brow ridges, endomorphs but the term also could be used on any other (southern) type which exhibits some archaic features like the said wide bones and robustness, etc. So, the Yamnaya people had these archaic features but also had dark hair and dark eyes (confirmed genetically) while the modern Northern Europeans who are CM are mainly light pigmented. In time all CM features and phenotypes tend to disappear in favor of more gracile forms but there are old forms that are still present for some reason today.
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Yes i already saw the Dienekes exemple, but i have to say, those 3 men for me are of complete different population. I have in intuition that east european hunter-gatherer and there later descendants are class like " Cro-Magnon or Proto-Europoid " with a generalization, without take physical features or craniometry for an important detail. I also know for the dark hair and dark eyes of the yamnaya people, wich i think is a very big generalization for the territory covered of the yamna culture ( almost 1 million km2 ), and also because Irish and British Island, Udmurts of Volga ( clearly a local preserved population from the prehistoric context ) and Tocharians depicted by ancient chinese, have all Red Hair in their physical features, somewhat ( but i dont think this is the origin ) link with the R1b expansion. So i think that the Mathieson or Lazaridis ( i dont remember who ) conclusion, is a very very big generalization for only a few samples ( remember that the context of yamna burials, are local elits, and maybe the elit, didnt have the same physical features has the general people ? ). Is there possible that physical traits like light body, light hair, light eyes exist in ancient time, but the markers that in modern time, we take, for thoses innovations, didnt exist in our genetic code a this time ?
 
The Bronze Age Indo-Europeans had dark hair but also considerable amount of blonde and red haired people because they are not the same people as the Yamnaya. The Yamnaya were incoming people from Central Asia who gradually mixed with the local population in Eastern Europe/North Eastern Europe/and North Europe (the people there had fair hair and eyes before being Indo-European) and that interaction and interbreeding gave rise to the Corded Ware Culture. After or around the time of the CWC there were new migrations of Satem-speaking Indo-Europeans who were the proto-Indo-Aryans and proto-Iranians. They moved to Central Asia and gave rise to Andronovo, Afanasievo and other cultures, so that's why there are people in Central Asia with light hair and eyes. In the end these CWC people were not the same as their Yamnaya ancestors, I believe there was a thread at Eupedia about how much admixture had the CWC people from Yamnaya and how much they were different.
The Yamnaya people also mixed in the area of Black sea with mediterranean people who, I guess, were the so-called Pontids. This physical type was present among the ancient Scythians according to Bunak and it's still present in Ukraine, South Russia, Eastern-Central Europe and the Balkans.
I guess that is why they've lost their original phenotype. I'm not sure if I understand your last question but I think that 6000 years ago we, the modern Europeans, were not the same people, our ethnogenesis was far from over and we were born in the interaction between these Central Asians carrying Proto-Indo-European speach with the local inhabitants of Old Europe - WHG+EEF.
 
Valerius said:
The Bronze Age Indo-Europeans had dark hair but also considerable amount of blonde and red haired people because they are not the same people as the Yamnaya. The Yamnaya were incoming people from Central Asia who gradually mixed with the local population in Eastern Europe/North Eastern Europe/and North Europe (the people there had fair hair and eyes before being Indo-European) and that interaction and interbreeding gave rise to the Corded Ware Culture. After or around the time of the CWC there were new migrations of Satem-speaking Indo-Europeans who were the proto-Indo-Aryans and proto-Iranians. They moved to Central Asia and gave rise to Andronovo, Afanasievo and other cultures, so that's why there are people in Central Asia with light hair and eyes. In the end these CWC people were not the same as their Yamnaya ancestors, I believe there was a thread at Eupedia about how much admixture had the CWC people from Yamnaya and how much they were different.
The Yamnaya people also mixed in the area of Black sea with mediterranean people who, I guess, were the so-called Pontids. This physical type was present among the ancient Scythians according to Bunak and it's still present in Ukraine, South Russia, Eastern-Central Europe and the Balkans.
I guess that is why they've lost their original phenotype. I'm not sure if I understand your last question but I think that 6000 years ago we, the modern Europeans, were not the same people, our ethnogenesis was far from over and we were born in the interaction between these Central Asians carrying Proto-Indo-European speach with the local inhabitants of Old Europe - WHG+EEF.
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I think it is impossible for CWC people to move to central asia to give rise to Andronovo. Basically majority of Andronovo people were protoeuropid (so called cromagnon type paleo european) like Afanasievo. V. P Alekseev said that it was impossible to differenciate between afansievo and andronovo. Maybe andronovo R1a-z93 is connected to srubna R1a-z93, mongol bronze R1a-93, karasuk R1a-z93, and scythian.
This R1a-z93 makes me confusing, which is a key to IndoAryan. Andronovo, srubna and west scythian are close to afanasievo, but karasuk, East scythian to okunevo, american Indian. Moreover, mongol bronze is related with chandman, being similar to blackfoot american indian and UP people 20,000bc.

Btw, afanasievo predated yamna by D. Anthony, who explained that Repin, origin of yamna, migrated to afanasievo, making use of botai horse-riding culture. really mistery!
4-2.jpg
 
The information about Andronovo being derived from CWC according to Wikipedia was proposed by Allentoft et al. (2015). This is my understanding, with more information there could be more to say. I guess the truth is much more fluid than the one-way theories. There were R1a/R1b hunter-gatherers who roamed Asia for thousand years, then they settled in Eastern Europe, then again new waves going back to Asia bringing new genetic material from the West to the East, then invasions of Scythians and steppe folk to the West - on & on. About the proto-europoid type in Andronovo - yes, there was, but it seems there were also other elements - there was some data about the pigmentation in Andronovo samples and it turns they also had light hair and light eyes which was not from the dark pigmented proto-europoids but from something else, I guess picked up from NE Europe. Yes, there is a mystery element at this point with these cultures and migrations, Afanasievo being older than Yamna is really strange, also the problem with the hypothetical second PIE branch in Anatolia...
 
Is it ok to be watching Nazi racial philosophy on youtube before reading this thread :grin: or a sign from the sky father ?

They were probably tall blonde sexy horse riding conquerors. Don't worry i'm not Nazi I just stumbled on that video by chance.

Is it true that the swastika was a proto indo-european symbol ?
 
IronSide said:
Is it ok to be watching Nazi racial philosophy on youtube before reading this thread :grin: or a sign from the sky father ?

They were probably tall blonde sexy horse riding conquerors. Don't worry i'm not Nazi I just stumbled on that video by chance.

Is it true that the swastika was a proto indo-european symbol ?
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why do you think that?
 
The swastika as many other symbols (like the tripod, like the IYI, like the cross) is common in many unrelated cultures but it was very popular image among all Indo-Europeans. I think the oldest known depiction is Mesolithic. Maybe the PIE people weren't the inventors of the symbol but it was something special and important to them.
 
IronSide said:
Is it ok to be watching Nazi racial philosophy on youtube before reading this thread :grin: or a sign from the sky father ?

They were probably tall blonde sexy horse riding conquerors. Don't worry i'm not Nazi I just stumbled on that video by chance.

Is it true that the swastika was a proto indo-european symbol ?
Click to expand...
Well oldest found is in Paleolithic Europe in Ukraine 10 000B.C,then we found it at Neolithic Vinca symbols,all of this suggest that the tall blonde horseman were far away from today's Europe at the time.
1169901.jpg
 
IronSide, the best thing you can do is to stay away from that nazi crap video propaganda in YouTube haha.

Milan.M, it seems that I was thinking about the same thing, Mesolithic/Paleolithic Ukraine - interestingly a place connected to the PIE people but pre-dating the PIE language. Also, around that time in the same area - north of the Black sea - there's information about that region being the place where the mutation for blue eyes occurred. There could be some connection but there's another 4000 years until the taming of the horse.
 
Valerius said:
IronSide, the best thing you can do is to stay away from that nazi crap video propaganda in YouTube haha.

Milan.M, it seems that I was thinking about the same thing, Mesolithic/Paleolithic Ukraine - interestingly a place connected to the PIE people but pre-dating the PIE language. Also, around that time in the same area - north of the Black sea - there's information about that region being the place where the mutation for blue eyes occurred. There could be some connection but there's another 4000 years until the taming of the horse.
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Yes,also i think is found in Bulgaria 6000 B.C in "devetashka cave" there is some images on the internet,but i'm not sure if that is that.
Well according to wiki i'm not very familiar with mutation for blue/eyes light skin even though i am one of them,if true?
As of 2015 researches, the earliest light eyes and light hair of hominid (Homo Sapiens) individuals after the long extinct Neandarthals have been documented at 8,000 years old remains in Motala, Sweden, belonging to subclades of Haplogroup I2 and mitochondrial Haplogroup U5. An I2a1 carrier was a carrier of red hair and others of genes of blond/light hair, while all the Mortala hunter-gatherers were light skinned and blue eyed males. However, 8-9,000 years old R1a remains from Karelia belonged to a light skinned male, while 17,000 years old light skin genes have been found in Siberia on a Haplogroup R carrier.
 
Yes, the symbol was found in the Neolithic Balkans in several places, also, interestingly in the Varna Culture, Bulgaria - the place where the first golden objects ever were created.
http://doktora757.blog.bg/photos/91603/original/Panitsa 271016_414056058641668_988952903_n.jpg

Also the Ukrainian swastika - http://doktora757.blog.bg/photos/91603/1 (1).png

These remains from Motala were first humans found in flesh to have the mutation but I think the researches on the mutation alone was said to had come north from the Black sea area. 8000 years ago (6000 BC) there were already many Nordic/CM people in North Europe and that is 4000 years after the first appearance of the mutation. Also, some people are speaking about sexual selection which made these traits dominant in Northern Europe. I'm not familiar with the results from Karelia but it sounds reasonable. Btw, is there info about the autosomal DNA of this I2a1 from Motala?
 
An I2c2 guy was also in Motala, if he was blonde and blue eyed then we're certainly not related
 
I didn't test any snp so I don't know, there are 103 snp's that define I2c2 indicating a bottleneck and PF3827 seems to be one of them, I was classified by str values.

so probably yes
 
Test it when you can and see if its the same thing. : )

Also I guess you know that the pigmentation is unrelated to Y-DNA and the information about that is in the Autosomal DNA, so it does not matter if that guy from Motala was blonde or not.
 
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