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Thread: Southern Neolithic route brought Megaliths from the Levant to Western Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    As stated an example is E-V13 (LBK) vs E-V22 (Cardial). E-V22 is found on the cardial hotspots, med. island and coast, not related to Anatolian stock!
    All Neolithic in south and central europe is the same source, not much autosomal variations. Explosions of some haplogroups has happened once they settled in certain places, causing local variations. Also it might mean different route to the destination, gathering various h-g dna on their way. However EEF had one source.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ed. I see LeBrok and Bicicleur have beat me to it.:)



    My point in posting that Dodecad analysis was to show how misleading it can be to use Admixture calculators created for modern populations to analyze ancient genomes unless you understand subsequent findings. According to that calculator, Otzi, who is definitely a product of the Balkan stream of the Neolithic, has more SSA than Gok, and the most is in European hunter-gatherers, which is the opposite of the assertions made here. I don't know how often it has to be said and demonstrated, but Admixture calculators based on modern modal clusters have to be interpreted very carefully, and with a knowledge of what more recent methods have shown, or they can be very misleading.

    You also have to be careful when discussing these Neolithic samples to know whether you are talking about the Early Neolithic of Impressed Ware/Cardial-Balkan Neolithic or you are talking about the Middle Neolithic. They are different, and the differences are the result of differing amounts of local h-g ancestry, not because there were differences among the farmers who came to Europe.

    If you go back and carefully re-read what I wrote and carefully re-look at all the graphics, you will see that I was discussing the initial streams of the Neolithic. Those early EEF people, whether in the Balkans, Central Europe, or Iberia, were remarkably similar to the Anatolian Neolithic people, and the Anatolian Neolithic people, who were the ones who went to Europe (actually many of them migrated from the juncture of Anatolia and northern Syria) were almost indistinguishable from one another. There was no Levant Neolithic which went to Europe versus an Anatolian Neolithic. Natufians didn't go to Europe. The major division in terms of early Near Eastern farmers was between the Anatolian Neolithic (which indeed had a chunk of Levant Neolithic in it), and the Iranian Neolithic.

    If you look at the Gunther et al graphic above, in particular, you'll see what I mean.

    You also might want to take a look at the latest Reich paper on the Neolithic people of the Near East.
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture19310.html

    I don't know if E-V22 was specifically Cardial versus E-V13 being specifically Balkan. I would say not, as the precursor of E-V13 is found in a Cardial setting in Spain, and Cardial moved from there all the way to the Paris Basin and elsewhere. Even if E-V22 was limited to Cardial, I don't see how it matters. Some differences in y Dna are to be expected. They don't translate into autosomal differences. Autosomally, these people were all very similar. We have many, many papers, and many autosomal analyses of these people to prove it. That's why I2a farmers and I1 farmers are identical to G2a farmers.

    E-V22 could also definitely have reached certain areas of Europe with later migrations, some historical. Some could have come with Phoenicians, maybe some with North Africans during the Roman Era and later. I don't see any difficulty with North African troops under the Romans spreading it to northern Europe. They were stationed in Britain and along the borders with Germania.
    Are 4 DYS enough for an haplotype? The E1b found in Spain is number 6 in the appendix of Lacan (2011). Is this certainly E-V13??????

    http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/1...expansion.html


    When you look at the Y-Full tree
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1919/
    you get another picture, Spain 7000 ybp is for E-V13 indeed to "young". E-v13 is an offspring from E-L616 in the Y-full tree only found in Latvia, definitely no relation with cardial I guess ;) On branche earlier we get E-Z1919 but at these fase we already have no differentiation with E-V22 so hmmmmm!
    The Western Desert (Libya/Egypt) is most probably the source of E-M78 is not unthinkable that a person with an E-M78 variant went from North-Africa to Spain, but not exclusive related to E-V13 I guess....so hoax?

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    ..............

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    LBK and Cardial Ware were the 1st wave of farmers into Europe
    and alltough they represent 2 different cultures, the people were genetically quite similar
    that is quite clear
    but what subsequent waves followed is less clear
    also is puzzling where the rising WHG admixture came from, is it local admixture after the 1st wave, or did this additional WHG come from elsewhere?
    There's been some work indicating that Loschbour type people were absorbed in the west, and KO1 type people in Central Europe, which makes sense.

    What I don't think is yet clear, if it will ever be clear, is whether the local h-g sort of stayed in place, the way that some Indians were to be found on the outskirts of forts in the American west, and were slowly absorbed over hundreds of years, or whether the local h-gs initially fled to refugia in the far northeast and the Atlantic, to slowly filter back in.

    I think there may have been an initial admixture in the area of the Danube Gates. However, remember that enigmatic abstract about an upcoming paper that said some of the initial admixed? Balkan groups had no genetic impact on modern Europeans? I still want to know what that meant.

    The rest may have taken place later, because most parts of LBK are almost identical to the Anatolian farmers. In Iberia there also may have been some initial admixture.

    What is still surprising to me is how long it took to absorb them, and the small amount of that admixture. It's about 20%, right?


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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Seems like an apology to LeBrok is in order. I was genuinely ignorant and stuck in the 'Jordan valley paradigm'.
    Not needed. I like exchange of ideas and good argument. ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    All Neolithic in south and central europe is the same source, not much autosomal variations. Explosions of some haplogroups has happened once they settled in certain places, causing local variations. Also it might mean different route to the destination, gathering various h-g dna on their way. However EEF had one source.

    On second thought:
    E-V22 is definitely Egyptian stock!
    Explain your relationship with the Anatolian stock, 'the one source'.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't think it's at all controversial to posit that E-V22 and E-M78 are sourced in North Africa, probably Egypt. The question is when and where did they move after that.

    One popular theory, bolstered by how much yDna "E" has been found in Natufians, is that it moved from there to the ancient Near East and then into Europe and that E-V13 may have been born either in the Near East or Europe, although it's major expansion was in the Bronze Age, with whom is not yet clear or uncontroversial.

    The European Neolithic definitely didn't come from Egypt!

    Another important read is Olade et al, from which I posted a graphic.

    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...ev.msv181.full

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There's been some work indicating that Loschbour type people were absorbed in the west, and KO1 type people in Central Europe, which makes sense.

    What I don't think is yet clear, if it will ever be clear, is whether the local h-g sort of stayed in place, the way that some Indians were to be found on the outskirts of forts in the American west, and were slowly absorbed over hundreds of years, or whether the local h-gs initially fled to refugia in the far northeast and the Atlantic, to slowly filter back in.

    I think there may have been an initial admixture in the area of the Danube Gates. However, remember that enigmatic abstract about an upcoming paper that said some of the initial admixed? Balkan groups had no genetic impact on modern Europeans? I still want to know what that meant.

    The rest may have taken place later, because most parts of LBK are almost identical to the Anatolian farmers. In Iberia there also may have been some initial admixture.

    What is still surprising to me is how long it took to absorb them, and the small amount of that admixture. It's about 20%, right?
    yes the increase was gradual, it took a long time
    and it was limited
    exact figures depend how you define WHG
    as you know, I've checked in a K=14 of a quite large population, in which there is something very similar to WHG, but not exact like the original definition when WHG was introduced (was that the Loschbourg genome?)
    it is however so that there was not only WHG in western Europe, there was also some in Anatolia (some Gravettian LGM refuges) and some in eastern Europe (Swiderian and extinct Epigravettian people of which autosomal and mtDNA got mixed with the incoming EHG), so the additional WHG could have come along from anywhere, albeit not in pure form if it was not coming from western Europe

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    And what about Trombetta (2015). He mentions E-V1083, which is M78(xV22,V12) this has only been reported in Sardinia and the Saho from East Africa!
    When we consider Sardina as the stronghold of the EEF, than this is a nice finding, not Anatolian stock related....

    Wiki: 'E-V1083*. Found only in Eritrea (1.1%) and Sardinia (0.3%).'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    On second thought:
    E-V22 is definitely Egyptian stock!
    No way. We would see way more SW Asian admixture, Natufian.
    Explain your relationship with the Anatolian stock, 'the one source'.
    Check HarappaWorld thread, all there.

    Think about Y hg as a virus. It can jump between populations without much of autosomal change.

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    Southern Neolithic route brought Megaliths from the Levant to Western Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    No way. We would see way more SW Asian admixture, Natufian.

    Check HarappaWorld thread, all there.

    Think about Y hg as a virus. It can jump between populations without much of autosomal change.
    You are definitely wrong. In 2007 Prof. Cruciani stated that the origins of E-M78 lay in the Western Desert (Egypt/Libya). This is recently confirmed by prof. Trombetta e.a. (2015) they claimed: “a northern African location is favoured for the node defining the M78 sub-clade (posterior probability = 0.76), supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al. (2007).

    The changing weather conditions, people moving to the Nile, and starting with forms of agriculture and sedentary takes place in the Western Desert/ Nile region. Along the Nile within a relative short time, a few hundreds years, there where 7 mutations (subbranches) within the E-V22 markers (Y2530_2 and PH2818). This occurred about 7300 ybp.
    The migration from the Western Desert to the Nile and the development of a new kind of life style are mayor triggers for the different mutations of E-V22 and the founder effect of it.
    Afterwards it spread to SW Asia.

    I don't state that E-V22 is on the whole an major lineage. But it's a lineage which forms a part of the cordial, Neolithic expansion, which hasn't it's roots in Anatolia. It's a part of Maciamo.s "Levantine branch".


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    Southern Neolithic route brought Megaliths from the Levant to Western Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't think it's at all controversial to posit that E-V22 and E-M78 are sourced in North Africa, probably Egypt. The question is when and where did they move after that.

    One popular theory, bolstered by how much yDna "E" has been found in Natufians, is that it moved from there to the ancient Near East and then into Europe and that E-V13 may have been born either in the Near East or Europe, although it's major expansion was in the Bronze Age, with whom is not yet clear or uncontroversial.

    The European Neolithic definitely didn't come from Egypt!

    Another important read is Olade et al, from which I posted a graphic.

    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...ev.msv181.full
    The only things I state are:
    1. Maciamo has a point when he detects a Levantine branch in the development in the Mediterranean and beyond: in Western Europe.
    2. E-V22 is on the whole a tiny lineage, TMCRA 8100 ybp at the Nile, so time enough to move into the Levant, and therefore able to play a part in the cardial development rooted in the Levantine, it's not related to Anatolia (just below it).
    Nothing more nothing less.


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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes the increase was gradual, it took a long time
    and it was limited
    exact figures depend how you define WHG
    as you know, I've checked in a K=14 of a quite large population, in which there is something very similar to WHG, but not exact like the original definition when WHG was introduced (was that the Loschbourg genome?)
    it is however so that there was not only WHG in western Europe, there was also some in Anatolia (some Gravettian LGM refuges) and some in eastern Europe (Swiderian and extinct Epigravettian people of which autosomal and mtDNA got mixed with the incoming EHG), so the additional WHG could have come along from anywhere, albeit not in pure form if it was not coming from western Europe
    Yes, I know. I'm only speaking of the WHG like ancestry picked up once they were in Europe, which is the topic of interest of the academic papers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    You are definitely wrong. In 2007 Prof. Cruciani stated that the origins of E-M78 lay in the Western Desert (Egypt/Libya). This is recently confirmed by prof. Trombetta e.a. (2015) they claimed: “a northern African location is favoured for the node defining the M78 sub-clade (posterior probability = 0.76), supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al. (2007).

    The changing weather conditions, people moving to the Nile, and starting with forms of agriculture and sedentary takes place in the Western Desert/ Nile region. Along the Nile within a relative short time, a few hundreds years, there where 7 mutations (subbranches) within the E-V22 markers (Y2530_2 and PH2818). This occurred about 7300 ybp.
    The migration from the Western Desert to the Nile and the development of a new kind of life style are mayor triggers for the different mutations of E-V22 and the founder effect of it.
    Afterwards it spread to SW Asia.

    I don't state that E-V22 is on the whole an major lineage. But it's a lineage which forms a part of the cordial, Neolithic expansion, which hasn't it's roots in Anatolia. It's a part of Maciamo.s "Levantine branch".


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    Imagine that one E-V22 sailer/trader from Egypt came to Italy fell in love and had lots of sons. His impact on autosomal pool on a region was negligible and undetectable (same effect even if it wasn't one sailor but a whole boat of sailors), his E-V22 however had spread through the region and lives till today.
    Win-win for both of us?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    It has already been stated in this thread (and by me) that E-M78 and V22 have been sourced by some scholars to North Africa. How many times does it have to be repeated? The question is, what happened after that? When and how did it arrive in Europe?

    It is perfectly plausible that along with all the other E that wound up in the Near East (in Natufians, for example), some became part of the Anatolian Neolithic which then moved into Europe. Pre-E-V13 could then have wound up both in Cardial in Spain and eventually in Sopot/Lengyel north of the Balkans. There, E-M78 could have eventually mutated into E-V13.

    I still have unanswered questions about the sub-clades of E-V13. Is the pre-E-V13 in Cardial from the same branch as the one that led to the pre-E-V13 in Sopot/Lengyel in the mid-to-late Neolithic transition along with J2? Was the Sopot/Lengyel branch from a later wave of the Neolithic? We know that with time there was a movement of Iran Neolithic west and south, and also a movement from the south that went north and east. Could E-V13 and V22 have been parts of that movement, a movement that continued into Europe? Also, why and how did E-V13 suddenly explode in the Bronze Age, and where? Was it indeed picked up by steppe people? If so, where? We need more ancient dna and more analysis to get to the bottom of these things, imo.

    There is still also a chance that E-M78 and V22 went directly to Europe from North Africa before the Neolithic but that is a long shot now, imo.

    What is clear to me, however, is that Cardial could never be supposed to have picked up E-V13 or V22 in Egypt/Libya. That just isn't the route that Cardial took. Cardial hugged the North Mediterranean coastline. They didn't have the navigation skills to do anything else.

    Furthermore, regardless of how people want to characterize Cardial, and whether or not Cardial people carried V22, it doesn't change the fact that all the EEF samples from Europe we have are very similar to one another and very similar to the Anatolian farmers who left for Europe. Ydna is a very small percentage of someone's genetic make-up. As I pointed out above, we have a I1 European farmer who is indistinguishable autosomally from G2a2 farmers, and I2a2 farmers carrying ydna of the European h-gs, who show little to minimum h-g ancestry autosomally. It's just the way it is.

    People can believe what they wish, of course.

    Btw, there are no hoaxes being perpetrated about E-V13 in Europe, or what is technically pre-E-V13. Why on earth would there be? You think all these scientists and researchers of all sorts from all different countries personally care one way or another? What difference can it possibly make?

    Ed. This is, of course, the state of the data as of the present time. Should ancient dna turn up from southern Europe that shows that some Cardial people were substantially different from the rest of the EEF, then that would change everything. As of now, to the best of my knowledge the Cardial derived Neolithic samples from Iberia fit the general pattern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    2. E-V22 is on the whole a tiny lineage, TMCRA 8100 ybp at the Nile, so time enough to move into the Levant, and therefore able to play a part in the cardial development rooted in the Levantine, it's not related to Anatolia (just below it).
    Nothing more nothing less.


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    All this sound good and i can agree with it if we find genetic trace of it.

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    This is, of course, the state of the data as of the present time. Should ancient dna turn up from southern Europe that shows that some Cardial people were substantially different from the rest of the EEF, then that would change everything. As of now, to the best of my knowledge the Cardial derived Neolithic samples from Iberia fit the general pattern, whatever their yDna.

    I'll add this as an ed. to the post above.

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    @Angela,

    A Cardiel guy had E-V13 not pre-E-V13. Also the Neolithic Hungarians with E1b-M78 weren't tested for V13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    The only things I state are:
    1. Maciamo has a point when he detects a Levantine branch in the development in the Mediterranean and beyond: in Western Europe.
    2. E-V22 is on the whole a tiny lineage, TMCRA 8100 ybp at the Nile, so time enough to move into the Levant, and therefore able to play a part in the cardial development rooted in the Levantine, it's not related to Anatolia (just below it).
    Nothing more nothing less.


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    but was that branch before farming commenced?

    clearly we already know hunters passed back and forward in the levant prior ( thousands of years before ) to any becoming farmers
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    @Angela,

    A Cardiel guy had E-V13 not pre-E-V13. Also the Neolithic Hungarians with E1b-M78 weren't tested for V13.
    What's the source Fire Haided?

    I can only find Lacan e.a. 2011 as source.

    In the text there is stated:
    For the six male samples, two complete and four partial Y-STRs haplotypes were obtained (Table 3). They allowed classification of individuals into two different haplogroups: G2a (individuals ave01, ave02, ave03, ave05, and ave06, which seem to share the same haplotype) and E1b1b1 (individual ave07). The four markers chosen to confirm belonging to these haplogroups (Y-E1b1b1-M35.1, Y-E1b1b1a1b-V13, Y-G2-M287, and Y-G2a-P15) were typed with a rate of 66%, which permitted confirmation that four males were G2a and one was E1b1b1a1b (Table 3).

    When you look at the table. There are for the 'E-v13 person' only 4 markers. Problem 1. how can they be sure, with a 4 marker, that's E-v13?

    Problem 2. In the Yfull tree the TMRCA of E-V13 is 5400 ybp. Ok this is a model, with ranges. But 7000 ybp cardial Spain? To early....

    So I'am curios if there are other sources!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It has already been stated in this thread (and by me) that E-M78 and V22 have been sourced by some scholars to North Africa. How many times does it have to be repeated? The question is, what happened after that? When and how did it arrive in Europe?

    It is perfectly plausible that along with all the other E that wound up in the Near East (in Natufians, for example), some became part of the Anatolian Neolithic which then moved into Europe. Pre-E-V13 could then have wound up both in Cardial in Spain and eventually in Sopot/Lengyel north of the Balkans. There, E-M78 could have eventually mutated into E-V13.

    I still have unanswered questions about the sub-clades of E-V13. Is the pre-E-V13 in Cardial from the same branch as the one that led to the pre-E-V13 in Sopot/Lengyel in the mid-to-late Neolithic transition along with J2? Was the Sopot/Lengyel branch from a later wave of the Neolithic? We know that with time there was a movement of Iran Neolithic west and south, and also a movement from the south that went north and east. Could E-V13 and V22 have been parts of that movement, a movement that continued into Europe? Also, why and how did E-V13 suddenly explode in the Bronze Age, and where? Was it indeed picked up by steppe people? If so, where? We need more ancient dna and more analysis to get to the bottom of these things, imo.

    There is still also a chance that E-M78 and V22 went directly to Europe from North Africa before the Neolithic but that is a long shot now, imo.

    What is clear to me, however, is that Cardial could never be supposed to have picked up E-V13 or V22 in Egypt/Libya. That just isn't the route that Cardial took. Cardial hugged the North Mediterranean coastline. They didn't have the navigation skills to do anything else.

    Furthermore, regardless of how people want to characterize Cardial, and whether or not Cardial people carried V22, it doesn't change the fact that all the EEF samples from Europe we have are very similar to one another and very similar to the Anatolian farmers who left for Europe. Ydna is a very small percentage of someone's genetic make-up. As I pointed out above, we have a I1 European farmer who is indistinguishable autosomally from G2a2 farmers, and I2a2 farmers carrying ydna of the European h-gs, who show little to minimum h-g ancestry autosomally. It's just the way it is.

    People can believe what they wish, of course.

    Btw, there are no hoaxes being perpetrated about E-V13 in Europe, or what is technically pre-E-V13. Why on earth would there be? You think all these scientists and researchers of all sorts from all different countries personally care one way or another? What difference can it possibly make?

    Ed. This is, of course, the state of the data as of the present time. Should ancient dna turn up from southern Europe that shows that some Cardial people were substantially different from the rest of the EEF, then that would change everything. As of now, to the best of my knowledge the Cardial derived Neolithic samples from Iberia fit the general pattern.
    On E-V13 see my reaction on Fire Haided.
    The question is, as orignally stated by Maciamo, is there a possibillity that E-V22 is part of a cardial movement rooted in the Southern Levant and wo went at the end into West-Europa?
    I say: it could be.
    Because:
    1. The TMRCA or E-V22 is about 8000 ybp. Most probably in the Nile area. The Southern Levant is one of worlds oldest human hubs. From NE Africa to SW Asia/Middle East and vice versa. The TMRCA of E-V22 is old enough to mingle with neolithic Levant. And the cordial spread is from the Levant into Med.
    2. Look at my subclade: Spain, Wales and North Dutch. Ok later influences are even more likely, Roman or in my case Spanish Army. But this doesn't rule out Maciamo's route!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    but was that branch before farming commenced?

    clearly we already know hunters passed back and forward in the levant prior ( thousands of years before ) to any becoming farmers
    Yes cleary. The founder effect of E-V22 is at the time of desertification, and people becoming sedentary along the Nile, also with the dawn of neolitization of Egypt along the Nile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    What's the source Fire Haided?

    I can only find Lacan e.a. 2011 as source.

    In the text there is stated:
    For the six male samples, two complete and four partial Y-STRs haplotypes were obtained (Table 3). They allowed classification of individuals into two different haplogroups: G2a (individuals ave01, ave02, ave03, ave05, and ave06, which seem to share the same haplotype) and E1b1b1 (individual ave07). The four markers chosen to confirm belonging to these haplogroups (Y-E1b1b1-M35.1, Y-E1b1b1a1b-V13, Y-G2-M287, and Y-G2a-P15) were typed with a rate of 66%, which permitted confirmation that four males were G2a and one was E1b1b1a1b (Table 3).

    When you look at the table. There are for the 'E-v13 person' only 4 markers. Problem 1. how can they be sure, with a 4 marker, that's E-v13?

    Problem 2. In the Yfull tree the TMRCA of E-V13 is 5400 ybp. Ok this is a model, with ranges. But 7000 ybp cardial Spain? To early....

    So I'am curios if there are other sources!
    he is more likely pré-L618, and even that is not sure

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    he is more likely pré-L618, and even that is not sure

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/
    Exact bicicleur!
    Or even: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z1919/

    I don't know which one correpondences with the Trombetta E-V1083, only found in Eritrea and Sardinia.....

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    The cardial V13 doesn't fit well in our current understanding of this group. But the facts are the facts: this sample was tested for the V13 SNP and was positive, so the STR-values are of no importance.

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