Southern Neolithic route brought Megaliths from the Levant to Western Europe

All Neolithic in south and central europe is the same source, not much autosomal variations. Explosions of some haplogroups has happened once they settled in certain places, causing local variations. Also it might mean different route to the destination, gathering various h-g dna on their way. However EEF had one source.


On second thought:
E-V22 is definitely Egyptian stock!
Explain your relationship with the Anatolian stock, 'the one source'.
 
I don't think it's at all controversial to posit that E-V22 and E-M78 are sourced in North Africa, probably Egypt. The question is when and where did they move after that.

One popular theory, bolstered by how much yDna "E" has been found in Natufians, is that it moved from there to the ancient Near East and then into Europe and that E-V13 may have been born either in the Near East or Europe, although it's major expansion was in the Bronze Age, with whom is not yet clear or uncontroversial.

The European Neolithic definitely didn't come from Egypt!

Another important read is Olade et al, from which I posted a graphic.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/09/23/molbev.msv181.full
 
There's been some work indicating that Loschbour type people were absorbed in the west, and KO1 type people in Central Europe, which makes sense.

What I don't think is yet clear, if it will ever be clear, is whether the local h-g sort of stayed in place, the way that some Indians were to be found on the outskirts of forts in the American west, and were slowly absorbed over hundreds of years, or whether the local h-gs initially fled to refugia in the far northeast and the Atlantic, to slowly filter back in.

I think there may have been an initial admixture in the area of the Danube Gates. However, remember that enigmatic abstract about an upcoming paper that said some of the initial admixed? Balkan groups had no genetic impact on modern Europeans? I still want to know what that meant.

The rest may have taken place later, because most parts of LBK are almost identical to the Anatolian farmers. In Iberia there also may have been some initial admixture.

What is still surprising to me is how long it took to absorb them, and the small amount of that admixture. It's about 20%, right?

yes the increase was gradual, it took a long time
and it was limited
exact figures depend how you define WHG
as you know, I've checked in a K=14 of a quite large population, in which there is something very similar to WHG, but not exact like the original definition when WHG was introduced (was that the Loschbourg genome?)
it is however so that there was not only WHG in western Europe, there was also some in Anatolia (some Gravettian LGM refuges) and some in eastern Europe (Swiderian and extinct Epigravettian people of which autosomal and mtDNA got mixed with the incoming EHG), so the additional WHG could have come along from anywhere, albeit not in pure form if it was not coming from western Europe
 
And what about Trombetta (2015). He mentions E-V1083, which is M78(xV22,V12) this has only been reported in Sardinia and the Saho from East Africa!
When we consider Sardina as the stronghold of the EEF, than this is a nice finding, not Anatolian stock related....

Wiki: 'E-V1083*. Found only in Eritrea (1.1%) and Sardinia (0.3%).'
 
On second thought:
E-V22 is definitely Egyptian stock!
No way. We would see way more SW Asian admixture, Natufian.
Explain your relationship with the Anatolian stock, 'the one source'.
Check HarappaWorld thread, all there.

Think about Y hg as a virus. It can jump between populations without much of autosomal change.
 
No way. We would see way more SW Asian admixture, Natufian.

Check HarappaWorld thread, all there.

Think about Y hg as a virus. It can jump between populations without much of autosomal change.

You are definitely wrong. In 2007 Prof. Cruciani stated that the origins of E-M78 lay in the Western Desert (Egypt/Libya). This is recently confirmed by prof. Trombetta e.a. (2015) they claimed: “a northern African location is favoured for the node defining the M78 sub-clade (posterior probability = 0.76), supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al. (2007).

The changing weather conditions, people moving to the Nile, and starting with forms of agriculture and sedentary takes place in the Western Desert/ Nile region. Along the Nile within a relative short time, a few hundreds years, there where 7 mutations (subbranches) within the E-V22 markers (Y2530_2 and PH2818). This occurred about 7300 ybp.
The migration from the Western Desert to the Nile and the development of a new kind of life style are mayor triggers for the different mutations of E-V22 and the founder effect of it.
Afterwards it spread to SW Asia.

I don't state that E-V22 is on the whole an major lineage. But it's a lineage which forms a part of the cordial, Neolithic expansion, which hasn't it's roots in Anatolia. It's a part of Maciamo.s "Levantine branch".


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I don't think it's at all controversial to posit that E-V22 and E-M78 are sourced in North Africa, probably Egypt. The question is when and where did they move after that.

One popular theory, bolstered by how much yDna "E" has been found in Natufians, is that it moved from there to the ancient Near East and then into Europe and that E-V13 may have been born either in the Near East or Europe, although it's major expansion was in the Bronze Age, with whom is not yet clear or uncontroversial.

The European Neolithic definitely didn't come from Egypt!

Another important read is Olade et al, from which I posted a graphic.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/09/23/molbev.msv181.full

The only things I state are:
1. Maciamo has a point when he detects a Levantine branch in the development in the Mediterranean and beyond: in Western Europe.
2. E-V22 is on the whole a tiny lineage, TMCRA 8100 ybp at the Nile, so time enough to move into the Levant, and therefore able to play a part in the cardial development rooted in the Levantine, it's not related to Anatolia (just below it).
Nothing more nothing less.


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yes the increase was gradual, it took a long time
and it was limited
exact figures depend how you define WHG
as you know, I've checked in a K=14 of a quite large population, in which there is something very similar to WHG, but not exact like the original definition when WHG was introduced (was that the Loschbourg genome?)
it is however so that there was not only WHG in western Europe, there was also some in Anatolia (some Gravettian LGM refuges) and some in eastern Europe (Swiderian and extinct Epigravettian people of which autosomal and mtDNA got mixed with the incoming EHG), so the additional WHG could have come along from anywhere, albeit not in pure form if it was not coming from western Europe

Yes, I know. I'm only speaking of the WHG like ancestry picked up once they were in Europe, which is the topic of interest of the academic papers.
 
You are definitely wrong. In 2007 Prof. Cruciani stated that the origins of E-M78 lay in the Western Desert (Egypt/Libya). This is recently confirmed by prof. Trombetta e.a. (2015) they claimed: “a northern African location is favoured for the node defining the M78 sub-clade (posterior probability = 0.76), supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al. (2007).

The changing weather conditions, people moving to the Nile, and starting with forms of agriculture and sedentary takes place in the Western Desert/ Nile region. Along the Nile within a relative short time, a few hundreds years, there where 7 mutations (subbranches) within the E-V22 markers (Y2530_2 and PH2818). This occurred about 7300 ybp.
The migration from the Western Desert to the Nile and the development of a new kind of life style are mayor triggers for the different mutations of E-V22 and the founder effect of it.
Afterwards it spread to SW Asia.

I don't state that E-V22 is on the whole an major lineage. But it's a lineage which forms a part of the cordial, Neolithic expansion, which hasn't it's roots in Anatolia. It's a part of Maciamo.s "Levantine branch".


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Imagine that one E-V22 sailer/trader from Egypt came to Italy fell in love and had lots of sons. His impact on autosomal pool on a region was negligible and undetectable (same effect even if it wasn't one sailor but a whole boat of sailors), his E-V22 however had spread through the region and lives till today.
Win-win for both of us?
 
It has already been stated in this thread (and by me) that E-M78 and V22 have been sourced by some scholars to North Africa. How many times does it have to be repeated? The question is, what happened after that? When and how did it arrive in Europe?

It is perfectly plausible that along with all the other E that wound up in the Near East (in Natufians, for example), some became part of the Anatolian Neolithic which then moved into Europe. Pre-E-V13 could then have wound up both in Cardial in Spain and eventually in Sopot/Lengyel north of the Balkans. There, E-M78 could have eventually mutated into E-V13.

I still have unanswered questions about the sub-clades of E-V13. Is the pre-E-V13 in Cardial from the same branch as the one that led to the pre-E-V13 in Sopot/Lengyel in the mid-to-late Neolithic transition along with J2? Was the Sopot/Lengyel branch from a later wave of the Neolithic? We know that with time there was a movement of Iran Neolithic west and south, and also a movement from the south that went north and east. Could E-V13 and V22 have been parts of that movement, a movement that continued into Europe? Also, why and how did E-V13 suddenly explode in the Bronze Age, and where? Was it indeed picked up by steppe people? If so, where? We need more ancient dna and more analysis to get to the bottom of these things, imo.

There is still also a chance that E-M78 and V22 went directly to Europe from North Africa before the Neolithic but that is a long shot now, imo.

What is clear to me, however, is that Cardial could never be supposed to have picked up E-V13 or V22 in Egypt/Libya. That just isn't the route that Cardial took. Cardial hugged the North Mediterranean coastline. They didn't have the navigation skills to do anything else.

Furthermore, regardless of how people want to characterize Cardial, and whether or not Cardial people carried V22, it doesn't change the fact that all the EEF samples from Europe we have are very similar to one another and very similar to the Anatolian farmers who left for Europe. Ydna is a very small percentage of someone's genetic make-up. As I pointed out above, we have a I1 European farmer who is indistinguishable autosomally from G2a2 farmers, and I2a2 farmers carrying ydna of the European h-gs, who show little to minimum h-g ancestry autosomally. It's just the way it is.

People can believe what they wish, of course.

Btw, there are no hoaxes being perpetrated about E-V13 in Europe, or what is technically pre-E-V13. Why on earth would there be? You think all these scientists and researchers of all sorts from all different countries personally care one way or another? What difference can it possibly make?

Ed. This is, of course, the state of the data as of the present time. Should ancient dna turn up from southern Europe that shows that some Cardial people were substantially different from the rest of the EEF, then that would change everything. As of now, to the best of my knowledge the Cardial derived Neolithic samples from Iberia fit the general pattern.
 
2. E-V22 is on the whole a tiny lineage, TMCRA 8100 ybp at the Nile, so time enough to move into the Levant, and therefore able to play a part in the cardial development rooted in the Levantine, it's not related to Anatolia (just below it).
Nothing more nothing less.


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All this sound good and i can agree with it if we find genetic trace of it.
 
This is, of course, the state of the data as of the present time. Should ancient dna turn up from southern Europe that shows that some Cardial people were substantially different from the rest of the EEF, then that would change everything. As of now, to the best of my knowledge the Cardial derived Neolithic samples from Iberia fit the general pattern, whatever their yDna.

I'll add this as an ed. to the post above.
 
@Angela,

A Cardiel guy had E-V13 not pre-E-V13. Also the Neolithic Hungarians with E1b-M78 weren't tested for V13.
 
The only things I state are:
1. Maciamo has a point when he detects a Levantine branch in the development in the Mediterranean and beyond: in Western Europe.
2. E-V22 is on the whole a tiny lineage, TMCRA 8100 ybp at the Nile, so time enough to move into the Levant, and therefore able to play a part in the cardial development rooted in the Levantine, it's not related to Anatolia (just below it).
Nothing more nothing less.


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but was that branch before farming commenced?

clearly we already know hunters passed back and forward in the levant prior ( thousands of years before ) to any becoming farmers
 
@Angela,

A Cardiel guy had E-V13 not pre-E-V13. Also the Neolithic Hungarians with E1b-M78 weren't tested for V13.

What's the source Fire Haided?

I can only find Lacan e.a. 2011 as source.

In the text there is stated:
For the six male samples, two complete and four partial Y-STRs haplotypes were obtained (Table 3). They allowed classification of individuals into two different haplogroups: G2a (individuals ave01, ave02, ave03, ave05, and ave06, which seem to share the same haplotype) and E1b1b1 (individual ave07). The four markers chosen to confirm belonging to these haplogroups (Y-E1b1b1-M35.1, Y-E1b1b1a1b-V13, Y-G2-M287, and Y-G2a-P15) were typed with a rate of 66%, which permitted confirmation that four males were G2a and one was E1b1b1a1b (Table 3).

When you look at the table. There are for the 'E-v13 person' only 4 markers. Problem 1. how can they be sure, with a 4 marker, that's E-v13?

Problem 2. In the Yfull tree the TMRCA of E-V13 is 5400 ybp. Ok this is a model, with ranges. But 7000 ybp cardial Spain? To early....

So I'am curios if there are other sources!
 
It has already been stated in this thread (and by me) that E-M78 and V22 have been sourced by some scholars to North Africa. How many times does it have to be repeated? The question is, what happened after that? When and how did it arrive in Europe?

It is perfectly plausible that along with all the other E that wound up in the Near East (in Natufians, for example), some became part of the Anatolian Neolithic which then moved into Europe. Pre-E-V13 could then have wound up both in Cardial in Spain and eventually in Sopot/Lengyel north of the Balkans. There, E-M78 could have eventually mutated into E-V13.

I still have unanswered questions about the sub-clades of E-V13. Is the pre-E-V13 in Cardial from the same branch as the one that led to the pre-E-V13 in Sopot/Lengyel in the mid-to-late Neolithic transition along with J2? Was the Sopot/Lengyel branch from a later wave of the Neolithic? We know that with time there was a movement of Iran Neolithic west and south, and also a movement from the south that went north and east. Could E-V13 and V22 have been parts of that movement, a movement that continued into Europe? Also, why and how did E-V13 suddenly explode in the Bronze Age, and where? Was it indeed picked up by steppe people? If so, where? We need more ancient dna and more analysis to get to the bottom of these things, imo.

There is still also a chance that E-M78 and V22 went directly to Europe from North Africa before the Neolithic but that is a long shot now, imo.

What is clear to me, however, is that Cardial could never be supposed to have picked up E-V13 or V22 in Egypt/Libya. That just isn't the route that Cardial took. Cardial hugged the North Mediterranean coastline. They didn't have the navigation skills to do anything else.

Furthermore, regardless of how people want to characterize Cardial, and whether or not Cardial people carried V22, it doesn't change the fact that all the EEF samples from Europe we have are very similar to one another and very similar to the Anatolian farmers who left for Europe. Ydna is a very small percentage of someone's genetic make-up. As I pointed out above, we have a I1 European farmer who is indistinguishable autosomally from G2a2 farmers, and I2a2 farmers carrying ydna of the European h-gs, who show little to minimum h-g ancestry autosomally. It's just the way it is.

People can believe what they wish, of course.

Btw, there are no hoaxes being perpetrated about E-V13 in Europe, or what is technically pre-E-V13. Why on earth would there be? You think all these scientists and researchers of all sorts from all different countries personally care one way or another? What difference can it possibly make?

Ed. This is, of course, the state of the data as of the present time. Should ancient dna turn up from southern Europe that shows that some Cardial people were substantially different from the rest of the EEF, then that would change everything. As of now, to the best of my knowledge the Cardial derived Neolithic samples from Iberia fit the general pattern.

On E-V13 see my reaction on Fire Haided.
The question is, as orignally stated by Maciamo, is there a possibillity that E-V22 is part of a cardial movement rooted in the Southern Levant and wo went at the end into West-Europa?
I say: it could be.
Because:
1. The TMRCA or E-V22 is about 8000 ybp. Most probably in the Nile area. The Southern Levant is one of worlds oldest human hubs. From NE Africa to SW Asia/Middle East and vice versa. The TMRCA of E-V22 is old enough to mingle with neolithic Levant. And the cordial spread is from the Levant into Med.
2. Look at my subclade: Spain, Wales and North Dutch. Ok later influences are even more likely, Roman or in my case Spanish Army. But this doesn't rule out Maciamo's route!
 
but was that branch before farming commenced?

clearly we already know hunters passed back and forward in the levant prior ( thousands of years before ) to any becoming farmers

Yes cleary. The founder effect of E-V22 is at the time of desertification, and people becoming sedentary along the Nile, also with the dawn of neolitization of Egypt along the Nile.
 
What's the source Fire Haided?

I can only find Lacan e.a. 2011 as source.

In the text there is stated:
For the six male samples, two complete and four partial Y-STRs haplotypes were obtained (Table 3). They allowed classification of individuals into two different haplogroups: G2a (individuals ave01, ave02, ave03, ave05, and ave06, which seem to share the same haplotype) and E1b1b1 (individual ave07). The four markers chosen to confirm belonging to these haplogroups (Y-E1b1b1-M35.1, Y-E1b1b1a1b-V13, Y-G2-M287, and Y-G2a-P15) were typed with a rate of 66%, which permitted confirmation that four males were G2a and one was E1b1b1a1b (Table 3).

When you look at the table. There are for the 'E-v13 person' only 4 markers. Problem 1. how can they be sure, with a 4 marker, that's E-v13?

Problem 2. In the Yfull tree the TMRCA of E-V13 is 5400 ybp. Ok this is a model, with ranges. But 7000 ybp cardial Spain? To early....

So I'am curios if there are other sources!

he is more likely pré-L618, and even that is not sure

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/
 
The cardial V13 doesn't fit well in our current understanding of this group. But the facts are the facts: this sample was tested for the V13 SNP and was positive, so the STR-values are of no importance.
 

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